The great debate!
- Thread starter smittyslabs
- Start date
I would even more astounding that the labrador retriever parent club, states, "Labs do not point!" I don't know what they say when a pointing lab is observed in the field.... if a lab can stand staid, steady at heel for shooting ducks, hold while, and then flush, when birds are pointed, by pointing breeds, it can make a pointing/or at least a stand to flush dog. I had lots of All-Age pointers, they are found, not bred, they will not be true to type. A few will be in some litters, occasionally, a group of all-age dogs are born in a single litter, some dogs of all-age breeding, will be the parents of all-age dogs in the future, even if they don't have the chops themselves. The National Championship is a game of specialists in a special pursuit. No dogs of any breed can match them in that game, period. Many I have hunted with are consumate bird dogs as well, and love it! No other dogs can run a 3 hour course finding game, and be perilously close to being lost, really, or at least out of contact for a long period of time. No e-collars here, just a tracking collar which can be activated to find a dog which has been disqualfied. They will cover around 12 sections of real estate, ahead of road gated walking horses. May have great success hunting with Labs, other other pointers. I Personally , I don't want to work or have energy to hunt the all-age specialist. The all-age dog conveys the ground gaining, no hold bars competitors, that keeps the drive and physical traits, toughness, to pass on the rest, all of whom are consistent as real great hunting dogs, or shooting dogs. As far at it goes, I think pheasant dogs are specialist, they have a knack to handle the big birds, all dogs repond to pheasants, point, or flush. The true specialist, is whatever the breed may be, is a scarce "blue hen", and one I will be happy to go with!
smittyslabs
New member
Looks like labs are the most popular so far! BTW JSDRIGGS, my yellow girl says you can kiss her white ass! HAHAHA! good times, good times :cheers::cheers:
carptom1
Well-known member
jeffstally
Member
My point is that people who need to compete at that level choose to go with English Pointers (some setters, but they are the minority). As far as I know, it is open to all breeds and you don't see people showing up with brits, GSPs, or even red setters for that matter.
To me this shows that, in a competition format, the EPs are the best upland dog out there. I don't particularly love EPs myself, just my observation.
SetterNut
New member
Labs are a very popular and solid hunting dog. Lots to like about them. I would guess that there are more Pheasants killed with labs than any breed.
But for Upland birds where covering lots of ground, finding birds, holding them till you get there, it pretty clear. The pointers and setters stand at the top. They have been designed for hundreds of years to specialize at it and it shows. Those traits transfer well to trials.
You do see some other breeds that have individual dogs that stand up well to the pointers and setter. A friend of mine has some V's that are amazing.
But in some parts, hunting quail with a lab is illegal, and grounds to be tarred and feathered
But for Upland birds where covering lots of ground, finding birds, holding them till you get there, it pretty clear. The pointers and setters stand at the top. They have been designed for hundreds of years to specialize at it and it shows. Those traits transfer well to trials.
You do see some other breeds that have individual dogs that stand up well to the pointers and setter. A friend of mine has some V's that are amazing.
But in some parts, hunting quail with a lab is illegal, and grounds to be tarred and feathered
Someday before I die I want to see the situation where it is an advantage to have a dog "run big". I used to have a chocolate lab that ran big and since he was my first hunting dog I had no clue what I was doing. He would point a bird 150 yds from me and hold it, but he scared up 50 more birds on the way to that one. My hunting buddies were hard to convince that he was a good deal. This was in 1980 and I had no clue about E collars. Still I would really like to see that so I can say I understand.
Actually, a bigger running ruffed grouse dog can be a benefit in the Apps where populations are so low now...essentially, the dogs run based upon what is there. Stretching out if no birds are close.
There is a limit tho both in the bird holding and gradient for the hunter.
Missing birds is always the call against a larger running dog but dependent upon and considering all the factors relative to a dog scenting a bird....overrunning a nose happens seldom, compared to a close working dog, and mostly occurs as the dog is hyped out of the box, if at all.
Labs can make great ruffed grouse dogs and some real killers racking up big harvest numbers in the UGLs favor them.
No lab points tho....but some have a real nice hesitation to a flush.
Having had two labs, it would be hard to imagine that God made a better dog....as a dog.
There is a limit tho both in the bird holding and gradient for the hunter.
Missing birds is always the call against a larger running dog but dependent upon and considering all the factors relative to a dog scenting a bird....overrunning a nose happens seldom, compared to a close working dog, and mostly occurs as the dog is hyped out of the box, if at all.
Labs can make great ruffed grouse dogs and some real killers racking up big harvest numbers in the UGLs favor them.
No lab points tho....but some have a real nice hesitation to a flush.
Having had two labs, it would be hard to imagine that God made a better dog....as a dog.
quail hound
Moderator
You pointer guys should be flocking to the west, we have tons of quail and chukar in some big country where those dogs can really strech their legs. Come in top shape though because you don't want those birds flushing before you reach the point (pray the birds know they're supposed to hold).:cheers:
birdshooter
Well-known member
Whoa hold on there. First... the National Championship at Ames is steeped in tradition from it's beginnings in the early 1900's of which Pointers have been the predominant breed. Furthermore, to qualify for Ames you have to qualify through FDSB/AFTCA sanctioned trials, all of which are dominated by Pointers. GSP trialers for instance (I'll use them as an example) have their own stakes (AKC and NGSPA) and a National Championship of their own to compete in and prefer it that way. They have no interest in competing in FDSB sanctioned events and even if the occasional top GSP would/could qualify, the chances would be slim of that dog getting a fair/unbiased look from judges who are used to seeing nothing but Pointers.
I have no doubt that some of the top NGSPA GSP AA dogs as well as some Britts who compete at the very highest level in horseback trials, could compete at Ames. However, I doubt any would receive a fair shake in a trial which has traditionally over many, many years been a Pointer trial.
If you talk to GSP horseback trialers you will get an ear full as to why they choose not to compete against Pointers at Ames...
JMHO
Last edited:
Cobblestone
New member
It would be nice though to see some of thsoe AA GSP's and Brit's run against those pointers.
Just hard to get it done on a level playing field.
Just hard to get it done on a level playing field.
They will deny it. But there is a lot of pointer in a large number of German Shorthaired dogs. This was before, there was DNA testing, in the 60's, the bloodlines type true. Not place a fine point on it, but there was a good deal of pointer blood in the breed when it was standardized in the mother country. The orginal shorthairs were plodders, giagantic dogs, with a predisposition to fur. This is the way it was. Good dogs, stayed in the kennel, inhaled groceries, trained themselves with some degree of experience, and you did not seem compelled to higher a trainer. The stuff of dreams is a versatile dog competing in any All-Age trial, there are many across the country, entry fees are about $1500- and up. Will take horses, scouts, and about 10 days to 2 weeks to do it. Of course you will need grounds to prepare the dog, with birds, (basically bobwhite), hard to find. There is the NBA, and there is the other guys. Other guys can be entertaining, and on the tailgate after a great effort, over a sloshing beer, you can believe they could compete against any dog any where. I have seen countless AKC judges, Shorthair, Brittany, and others, would would place a winners crown on a pointer in all age no condition trials. It won't be the national champion though, or any of the maybe 40+ dogs on that scale. FDSB has a recipriocal agreement to honor each others papers, so the National Champion can be registered to run in AKC trials, All your brittany and shorthair trialers, on all your all-age trials, try inviting all-age dogs to come and compete. There are amateur dogs who might compete. Truth is I would celebrate the difference, between breeds instead of trying clone everything like a retriever into a pointer, or versatile dogs into English Pointers. We have those breeds already,with 200 year head start!
jeffstally
Member
Lab owners are definitely the most guilty of letting their dogs get overweight, but it can happen to just about any of them. One walk around Game Fair in August and it seems to me that about 50% of the dogs there are overweight. It is sad to think that 60 days after Game Fair they are going to be asking these dogs to hunt all day in the condition they are in.
jeffstally
Member
I have no doubt that some of the top NGSPA GSP AA dogs as well as some Britts who compete at the very highest level in horseback trials, could compete at Ames. However, I doubt any would receive a fair shake in a trial which has traditionally over many, many years been a Pointer trial.
If you talk to GSP horseback trialers you will get an ear full as to why they choose not to compete against Pointers at Ames...
JMHO
I have no knowledge of the inner workings of field trials, I am just going by what I see as an outsider.
I am sure that all of this is true, and of course there are individuals within the breed that could compete at that level. On average though, I don't think that most GSPs could be competitive in that venue. It also doesn't mean that they need to be competitive there to be an outstanding dog. I personally could not handle one of those caliber dogs myself, I like to know where my dog is.
carptom1
Well-known member
That's why so many people have an aversion to Labs as an upland dog. Many people's only exposure to Lab's has been when there buddy brings the house pet out to hunt that has been sitting around eating ice cream 11 months out of the year. I have a male at about 65-68lbs. I take him out to the local dog park to swim from time to time. I have had a couple people mention that they thought he was not getting enough to eat. I have been going there for a few years and I agree that most Labs are fatties.
carptom1
Well-known member
Haymaker,
I think you hit upon the principle difference between hunting in SD and hunting in the Kansas grass. In SD you might see 50-100 birds in a field. In Kansas you are lucky to see that in a season most years. A big running dog has it's advantages when you are hunting a big field with a couple guys and there are only a few birds in it. In SD cattails or deep cover a good Lab will produce.
SetterNut
New member
That is spot on. If the birds are concentrated in an area like cattails the dog doesn't need to run as big. But if you are in a bigger area where the birds are widely and thinly dispersed it's a big help of the dog can go check a spot out without you having to walk there too.
Ames in the early 1900s was dominated by the Setters. Now it's the pointers.
The notion that other breeds would not get a fair shake is an excuse IMO. It's that the traits that they are looking for at Ames, the pointers and setters have more so than the other breeds.
Last edited:
only a pointer
Banned
Way to pick a side OP, you would make a good politician
i dont think i need to pick a side lol you all know what i like you just cant go wrong with those 4 or even a lab if thats your style now carp if you wanna talk a little football i will definately narrow it down to a few teams in the sec
FCSpringer
Moderator
When you want the hard truth on these breeds let me know, LOL
:cheers: what a bunch a blow hards.
:cheers: what a bunch a blow hards.