Why Pointing Labs?

Uncle Buck said:
Kind of what I never understood about the pointing lab bit. Do you want a flusher or a pointer? A Pointer that flushes before or after you tell it to? (VERY BAD FORM AND HARD ON THE DOG WHEN YOU WANT HIM TO POINT). Sounds like confusion to me.
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I agree with you in the sense that I want my dogs to stay on point while I flush the bird, but only in this country do we train our dogs that way. Everywhere else, including Europe, they expect the dog to flush on command after it points, even "real pointers" like English Pointers. In fact, they avoid dogs with too much point because it's harder to train them to flush on command. That's not my cup of tea, but I'm pointing it out to show that it's not necessarily hard on the dog or difficult to teach him to flush. Most of the world does it that way.
 
Bullshirt said:
What vet school did you graduate from?
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If you asked 9 out of 10 vets what kind of dog you should own, your hunting dog would be a neutered half pit bull/half rottweiler from the animal shelter. Their training is in animal health, not hunting dog breeding or training. My vet doesn't know the first thing about training or the difference in hunting characteristics of various breeds and would be the first to tell you that. But, he always does a great job of diagnosing and curing my dogs' medical issues, which is all I ask of him.
 
jsdriggs said:
All right, let's settle down. We are just talking about hunting dogs, which we all love. No matter the breed. Anyhow, three labs ago for me was my $250 AKC lab, Tater Bob. Backyard breeder. "Her mom seems to be a good hunter" was the story. Man what a dog she was. Nothing but ducks till she was seven. God was she a tough, 50 pound bitch. Started her on pheasants at 8, and by 10 she was a pointing fool. I had no idea where that came from but wasn't complaining at the time. Just came naturally from instinct, I guess the point is, who cares why? It just is what it is.
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Well said!:cheers:
 
jsdriggs said:
All right, let's settle down. We are just talking about hunting dogs, which we all love. No matter the breed. Anyhow, three labs ago for me was my $250 AKC lab, Tater Bob. Backyard breeder. "Her mom seems to be a good hunter" was the story. Man what a dog she was. Nothing but ducks till she was seven. God was she a tough, 50 pound bitch. Started her on pheasants at 8, and by 10 she was a pointing fool. I had no idea where that came from but wasn't complaining at the time. Just came naturally from instinct, I guess the point is, who cares why? It just is what it is.
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You know John I also had many good hunts with a ? backyard dog?. Twenty or so years ago when my wife and I first married she had a cousin with some Lab pups they were trying to sell. I Had one decent dog and was suprised when she wanted to buy another to help them out. He turned into a pretty darned good upland dog. He even ended up having some point in him and I often hunted quail with him. Unfortunately he ended up with a ton of health problems from his bad breeding and had to be put down at 9.
 
The first dog that I had that hunted birds was a chocolate lab that was free for the taking from a box at the sale barn. I was looking for a dog that would pick up cripples. When I took him hunting he pointed and pointed well. I learned so much from him that when he died I got GWP and now have a DD. He was a great dog.
 
dead pheasants forever said:
If you asked 9 out of 10 vets what kind of dog you should own, your hunting dog would be a neutered half pit bull/half rottweiler from the animal shelter. Their training is in animal health, not hunting dog breeding or training. My vet doesn't know the first thing about training or the difference in hunting characteristics of various breeds and would be the first to tell you that. But, he always does a great job of diagnosing and curing my dogs' medical issues, which is all I ask of him.
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I agree with this!
 
I have no factual evidence to back this up, but I'm concerned with the potential for too narrow of a gene pool for the pointing labs. I was pretty sure that I wanted one to replace my non-pointing lab that pointed everything since he was a year old, but now am leaning towards a short-hair. It seems that most of the lineages I've seen have Sauk river something or other back about 4-6 generations. That combined with the very recent push to breed specifically for pointing is swaying me away. Again, I'm not basing this on any empirical evidence, just my personal concern.
But to answer the original question, why a pointing lab? Because if everything works out right you have a dog that will swim 1/2 way across the Columbia River to retrieve a duck. Will point and pin running pheasants, then flush them out of heavy cover on command, and retrieve them without a mark, and at the end of the day play with your 2 year old son.
But I have too much apprehension about the gene pool in addition to the culls that I've seen from pointing lab breeders (my sample set is only 3 from different breeders and the dogs weren't worked with very much, so I am in no way badmouthing anyone, I'm sure that there's a lot of good ones out there).
So I'm leaning towards a shorthair right now.
 
r_man said:
I have no factual evidence to back this up, but I'm concerned with the potential for too narrow of a gene pool for the pointing labs. I was pretty sure that I wanted one to replace my non-pointing lab that pointed everything since he was a year old, but now am leaning towards a short-hair. It seems that most of the lineages I've seen have Sauk river something or other back about 4-6 generations. That combined with the very recent push to breed specifically for pointing is swaying me away. Again, I'm not basing this on any empirical evidence, just my personal concern.
But to answer the original question, why a pointing lab? Because if everything works out right you have a dog that will swim 1/2 way across the Columbia River to retrieve a duck. Will point and pin running pheasants, then flush them out of heavy cover on command, and retrieve them without a mark, and at the end of the day play with your 2 year old son.
But I have too much apprehension about the gene pool in addition to the culls that I've seen from pointing lab breeders (my sample set is only 3 from different breeders and the dogs weren't worked with very much, so I am in no way badmouthing anyone, I'm sure that there's a lot of good ones out there).
So I'm leaning towards a shorthair right now.
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Take a look at FC Blackwaters last resort. Call name Fin. He is producing a lot of pups that point and he is a Field Champion. He is a pretty big dog. I have buddy with a 1 1/2 old pup by him and a MH bitch. He points and has earned a few derby points! I don't think Finn was bred to produce pointy pups. I don't remember much about his pedigree but I believe he is a lean Mac/ Chena river line breeding

Steve
 
r_man said:
But to answer the original question, why a pointing lab? Because if everything works out right you have a dog that will swim 1/2 way across the Columbia River to retrieve a duck. Will point and pin running pheasants, then flush them out of heavy cover on command, and retrieve them without a mark, and at the end of the day play with your 2 year old son.
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That also describes every good versatile dog...(DD, Griff, DK, SM,...etc)
Now, don't take that as a slight against PL's...it's not. I think they're a great dog!
My last dog was a PL and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about ole Rowdy.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are a LOT of breeds that fit THAT criteria, but they don't look like a lab. I think that's really what it boils down to.
Some people (me included), love labs...period. And, if they can get one that will do everything they want. Why not? This is ,by God, America!! (My dog's German though) ;)
And, for the life of me, I cannot understand why they become so controversial in these threads. People just get so set in their ways and thoughts of how and what a dog is supposed to do. The fact is, they've been pointing since they were designed. There IS pointer (spanish I think) DNA in their make up, so why wouldn't it show up in some dogs and lines?
Any reputable breeder will breed for the "big picture"...not just the point.
If they're breeding only for the point, that's no different than breeding for just color. Not real responsible breeding.
 
Duckdog17 said:
That also describes every good versatile dog...(DD, Griff, DK, SM,...etc)
Now, don't take that as a slight against PL's...it's not. I think they're a great dog!
My last dog was a PL and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about ole Rowdy.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, there are a LOT of breeds that fit THAT criteria, but they don't look like a lab. I think that's really what it boils down to.
Some people (me included), love labs...period. And, if they can get one that will do everything they want. Why not? This is ,by God, America!! (My dog's German though) ;)
And, for the life of me, I cannot understand why they become so controversial in these threads. People just get so set in their ways and thoughts of how and what a dog is supposed to do. The fact is, they've been pointing since they were designed. There IS pointer (spanish I think) DNA in their make up, so why wouldn't it show up in some dogs and lines?
Any reputable breeder will breed for the "big picture"...not just the point.
If they're breeding only for the point, that's no different than breeding for just color. Not real responsible breeding.
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I like a whole lot of this post.
 
Been lurking and watching this thread. Very interesting opinions and observations. I've been breeding pointing labs for over 20 years now and it is more of a passion that has been a great ride. We started with Kellogg lines bred to a dog out of an FC AFC that pointed hard. It was a great pairing and we were hooked. The continental pointing breeds have many more generations of dogs bred for point than do the pointing labs do so there may more stylish point there at times. The continental pointing breeds often sport dogs that have a 20%coefficient of inbreeding (line breeding) or more. This significantly narrows the gene pool of the dog and breeders have to be willing to cull. If the pup you get is healthy, intelligent, and has good temperament maybe the intent is achieved. The thing a breeder cant foresee is what temperament the dog will have after maturity and "tight" breeding in my opinion seems to bring out some poor temperaments.

Some actually think the pointing LAB is a crossbred dog. Not so, they are registered as Labrador Retrievers and if they are a lab that points then they are just that, but still a lab. The term pointing lab that doesnt point is somewhat odd to me. The dog may have been bred to point but if he doesnt point he's NOT a pointing lab. The breeding in his background will normally show up when he is in the upland. Most quarter naturally and have exceptional noses but in some dogs the prey drive overtakes the point.

Previously it was mentioned that if you look at Pointing Lab pedigrees you wont find FC dogs up close. That can be true in some kennels. I have two pointing titled labs directly out of FS's and have owned 4 others directly out of different FC's that pointed. Not all of our dogs are FC bred, it depends on the objective of the breeding. Specific size and build of the dog, length of hair, or color dont really denote a pointing lab characteristic.

The mention of FC Finn throwing point is right on, great observation and thanks for validating my suspicions. His pedigree has numerous FC bred dogs that throw point. According to his owner, Mr Swenson, doesnt pheasant hunt with Finn to know if he points or not. His brother actually purchased one of our pups. I honestly think that sort of thing is more common than we know of.

As for small gene pools there are actually many lines that point if paired both on top and bottom. As a breeder its taken me many years and miles to watch pointing lab hunt tests and look at dogs on birds to compile what I feel are the lines that have the strongest point. Im not going to give up a ton of info here but I have found the right FC breeding on the dam side and a Stud bred with strong point that has the ability compete at the master level can produce some really talented pointing retrievers.

I have also seen a few dogs that were "garage bred" that were nice dogs, I've owned one. That is, one out of 4 which is a 75% wash out ratio. Not too good of odds. However, a truly good dog is a good dog no matter how its bred.

As for those looking for a Pointing Lab Pup I would say research pedigrees with an open mind. Go back 5 to 8 generations, there are free tools out there to do that with. Go with proven track records, be sure BOTH parents have pointing titles, stick with reputable breeders with references, forget color, make sure BOTH parents are REAL HUNTING DOGS (there are plenty of people that claim to be guides) and insist on health clearances.:thumbsup:

Happy hunting
Red Label Kennels
 
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Bullshirt said:
My vet not only is a great practitioner but a well known breeder of labs in eastern Nebraska. I think he falls into the 10% that actually know something about dog breeds (labs). But that's his opinion he is entitled to that just as you are.:cheers:
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What is his name and the name of his kennel? I am in the market for a new pup.
 
I wonder if anyone produces a wingshooter who consistently picks the right place to go and then hits every bird that rises into the air?
Just sayin' . . .
 
I nominate this thread to "hot stove league" hall of fame. I you are a hunter, and a bird flushed by your dog 5 feet away and you harvest it, or your same dog points a bird, which you flush and harvest, is there a difference? Or does the hunter rejoices at the harvest, the dog did a good job, I doubt the pheasant is any more perplexed that he wasn't pointed, any more happy than having his Saturday morning disrupted by a pointer. Bird in the bag, that's the motto how ever you can. If you want pointing and nuances of the fine points, get a horse and field trial, or get a real spaniel for flushing. Labs are very capable of assuming any persuasion their owner wants. If you are a pheasant hunter, what results in a bird in the bag is what he will learn to do. That is why they are the number one breed. All the nonsense about questionable genetic makeup are pointless, (pun), assuming we could turn back the clock. We have pointing labs, we have guide dogs, we have tracking dogs, antler retrievers, bomb dogs, even medical alert dogs, many of these do several specialties. If you have a lab who points, and it does it to your satisfaction, more power to you, if you have a quartering flush who produces birds, great, if you lump couch potato goes a long but retrieves every cripple you shoot, that's a lot more than many dogs do. Besides the AKC breed standard, (such as it is), says "Labs don't point", I see no practical reality to the rule, just spite. I also see very little practical about Lab all-age stakes. I look for otter tailed dogs, with good bone, fat under the skin, loose coat impervious of water, and burrs, nice gait, health certifications, smart and able to learn on the job, great vision, great nose ..... If he points or not, I can make that work! I am confused by the "style" argument. I see a lot of superior kind of dogs on these pages. I would tout the breed, the potato/tomato, yin or yang seem kind of lame? My lab, on the couch, he's also first in the car, plays with the kids, hunts ducks, ( a little reluctantly), hunts upland birds, obedience trained, ( did that him self) , show pointed, so he looks good at the end of the day photo's, with the old double guns. I have seen him point, at least till somebody is up close to shoot.
 
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Lol. Do you have a good recipe for loaves & fishes for a large gathering?
 
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