Why Pointing Labs?

Uncle Buck said:
#1 guys, I winked.
#2 most of you have not heard of the Versitile breeds or you would note that the Wirehairs, SMs. Pudelpointers etc in addition to pointing will retrieve very nicely, thank you. I invite you all to go to one NAVHDA EVENT IN YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD AND GET YOUR EYES OPENED.
Click to expand...

Been there and hunted over some of them, and yes my Eyes were open. Still like the lab personality and versatility better. TO EACH THEIR OWN!
 
Emperor_MA said:
If you were around dog breeding about 15-20 years ago (even as recently as 10 years ago), just about every "pointing lab" breeder seemed to keep a few intact English Setters on the grounds. If you hung around a bit more, you'd even notice puppies that looked a lot like labs but had quite a bit of white on their chests.

It is pretty widely accepted in the PNW that pointing lab stock was liberally infused with English Setter blood to help get it off the ground. It slimmed the labs down, gave pointing instinct and, most importantly, the setter's genes seemed to not do too much in terms of changing the lab's appearance other than adding a bit of wave to the coat (didn't seem to change the density, though), slimming them down some and gave a slight narrowing and elongation of the snout. Of course, first generation out-crossings often produced pups with some white fur, but it was never very much. The pups were bred back to labs to get them all black again, then their offspring re-bred to setters to get more pointing instinct. Make 'em black again .... rinse, repeat.

The lines are pretty set now from all the previous out crossings so you don't see the setters hanging around anymore. But if you were to do a deep dive DNA analysis of pointing labs, you'd find English Setter blood, for sure.

Not a big deal, really. All the breeds we love were started the same the way. The pioneers of the pointing lab world saw a market and went out and did something about it. They were right, as pointing labs are extremely popular....rightfully so for folks who hunt upland birds and also hunt waterfowl.
Click to expand...

So are you saying that labs sold with AKC papers as purebred labs (and pointing) are not purebred? The breeders lied to AKC or AKC sanctioned it? I have seen plenty of flushing labs point, if fact I watched a friend "discipline" his flusher for pointing ("I bought a flusher, I don't want a pointer"). The best pointing I ever saw was from a male out of a backyard bred litter of flushing choc. labs (4-H project).

Of course if you look at any English pointer line that retrieves there is a backyard lab in the lines somewhere. LOL! No big deal really! That ought to stir the pot (if you want a pointer buy a pointer, converse if you want a dog that retrieves buy a retriever!).
 
Deadbird said:
I understand why you hunt with a pointer or hunt with a flusher.

I have hunted pheasants behind some good pointing dogs and some good flushers (Carptom's lab being one of them)

Why do you need a lab to point pheasants?

Most of the time when my pointing dogs go on point, the pheasants have moved on by the time I get to them. (I know some pheasants hold for point, but not the majority do)

Does a pointing lab range out farther than a flushing lab.

I am not trying to say one dog is better than another. Just asking.

I might get a lab some day. Just did not know if it needed to point.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Find a breeder of pointing labs, tell them you are thinking of getting a pointing lab and ask them to let you tag along on a hunt and watch the parents hunt. Then you'll have an idea if pointing labs are your cup of tea. And if you like them, you'll already know where to get your pup.

There are plenty of good reasons why people like pointing labs, but you will never know if you like them unless you see them in action. Same with any breed of dog... They ALL can get the job done, you just need to figure out what's your brand.
:cheers:
 
And he is, John. As a matter of fact, "both" are, lol . . .
 
koja48 said:
I partnered with Labs (non-pointing) my entire life. When it came time to replace Maggie, I had a) quit hunting waterfowl, and b) turned 62 . . . with the tired knees & other badges of experience one earns with that many years of hunting hard in the outdoors eagerly chasing behind flushers. So . . . I opted for a versatile Braque du Bourbonnais. Hank was easy to train, is extremely devoted, is an outstanding bird dog & companion. Do I miss Labs? I do & always will; Labs hold a very special place in my heart, but as long as I am able to hunt upland birds from here on out, I will likely own pointers & most likely Bourbonnais. My pup goes everywhere with me & Hank fills that bill nicely . . . as a matter of fact, he insists on that (and I don't mind at all.).
Click to expand...

I went hunting last weekend with a guy who had 2 Braque Du Bourbonais. Really neat dogs, his older male might be the nicest pointer I have hunted behind. Unfortunately It took me all day to learn how to say the name correctly and I still can't spell it!! When my American lab climbed on the back seat with the two frenchies they gave it up like a chubby prom date. Them French sure love to surrender
 
PHP: 
Them French sure love to surrender

Lol, Hank is somewhat timid around strangers . . . canines & people both, but he has 45-pounds of heart when he hunts. 45-pounds of devotion all the time.
 
koja48 said:
PHP: 
Them French sure love to surrender

Lol, Hank is somewhat timid around strangers . . . canines & people both, but he has 45-pounds of heart when he hunts. 45-pounds of devotion all the time.
Click to expand...

My buddy said that timidness around strangers is fairly commen to the breed. But they werent timid in the field!! He is really trying to improve the breed. Maybe some day I will have one too
 
Emperor_MA said:
If you were around dog breeding about 15-20 years ago (even as recently as 10 years ago), just about every "pointing lab" breeder seemed to keep a few intact English Setters on the grounds. If you hung around a bit more, you'd even notice puppies that looked a lot like labs but had quite a bit of white on their chests.

It is pretty widely accepted in the PNW that pointing lab stock was liberally infused with English Setter blood to help get it off the ground. It slimmed the labs down, gave pointing instinct and, most importantly, the setter's genes seemed to not do too much in terms of changing the lab's appearance other than adding a bit of wave to the coat (didn't seem to change the density, though), slimming them down some and gave a slight narrowing and elongation of the snout. Of course, first generation out-crossings often produced pups with some white fur, but it was never very much. The pups were bred back to labs to get them all black again, then their offspring re-bred to setters to get more pointing instinct. Make 'em black again .... rinse, repeat.

The lines are pretty set now from all the previous out crossings so you don't see the setters hanging around anymore. But if you were to do a deep dive DNA analysis of pointing labs, you'd find English Setter blood, for sure.

Not a big deal, really. All the breeds we love were started the same the way. The pioneers of the pointing lab world saw a market and went out and did something about it. They were right, as pointing labs are extremely popular....rightfully so for folks who hunt upland birds and also hunt waterfowl.
Click to expand...

Have you observed this firsthand or is this coming from "a friend of a friend of a friend"? All breeds occasionally get accused of cross-breeding with another breed by people who are spinning tales. The fact of the matter is that labs probably already have Setter blood as part of their foundation from the 1800's, not from shady breeding 20 years ago. The English brought some retrievers back from Canada, created and refined the Lab breed in England, and supposedly mixed in a small amount of Setter blood to add some athleticism. I'm sure the pointing instinct results from some recessive gene from a foundation dog from the 1800's. My Pointing Lab looks no more like a Setter than any non-pointing Lab. I've seen dozens of Pointing Labs and have also owned non-pointing Labs and can't say that I see any difference between pointing and non-pointing labs in physical appearance, so I highly doubt that Pointing Labs are an English Setter cross from 20 years ago.

FYI - It's not uncommon for Labs to have a small patch of white on the chest. This comes from the St. John's water dog, which is the primary foundation dog for the Lab and has lots of white on its chest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John's_water_dog.
 
Nimrod said:
They're ideal for people who can't shoot very well. ;)

Actually, I can see the attraction if you're primarily a duck hunter who also hunts bobwhites or grouse but I find that when a pheasant does decide to hold for a pointing dog, the shot isn't usually challenging enough to make it interesting.

I much prefer the way a flushing dog works pheasants but I'm still young enough to keep up. Maybe in a few yrs I'll change my tune.
Click to expand...

LOL I remember hunting pheasants in northeast Nebraska with a friend from North Dakota not too long ago. My friend said that "he couldn't see ho anyone could miss a pointed bird". Very next bird my shorthair pointed was his, clean misses 3 times. Needless to say I still kid him about that!:cheers:
 
dead pheasants forever said:
Have you observed this firsthand or is this coming from "a friend of a friend of a friend"? All breeds occasionally get accused of cross-breeding with another breed by people who are spinning tales. The fact of the matter is that labs probably already have Setter blood as part of their foundation from the 1800's, not from shady breeding 20 years ago. The English brought some retrievers back from Canada, created and refined the Lab breed in England, and supposedly mixed in a small amount of Setter blood to add some athleticism. I'm sure the pointing instinct results from some recessive gene from a foundation dog from the 1800's. My Pointing Lab looks no more like a Setter than any non-pointing Lab. I've seen dozens of Pointing Labs and have also owned non-pointing Labs and can't say that I see any difference between pointing and non-pointing labs in physical appearance, so I highly doubt that Pointing Labs are an English Setter cross from 20 years ago.

FYI - It's not uncommon for Labs to have a small patch of white on the chest. This comes from the St. John's water dog, which is the primary foundation dog for the Lab and has lots of white on its chest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John's_water_dog.
Click to expand...

My vet is also a Lab breeder he says that pointing labs have pointers of some sort bred into them. Didn't say what types but his opinion is that true labs generally do not point.
 
Bullshirt said:
My vet is also a Lab breeder he says that pointing labs have pointers of some sort bred into them. Didn't say what types but his opinion is that true labs generally do not point.
Click to expand...

I agree that "true labs" generally do not point, but some do. Growing up in Texas, my family had a field trial bred duck hunting lab, that was definitely not bred as a pointing lab, that would point the neighbor's chickens in the brush. I've heard of other "true labs" that pointed for whatever reason. If you start breeding some of these labs together and focus on the pointing instinct, you get pointing labs. Not hard to figure out. Most labs that aren't bred to point won't ever point, but it's a gene floating around in all labs that pops up from time to time and occurs with regularity if you breed for it.
 
dead pheasants forever said:
I agree that "true labs" generally do not point, but some do. Growing up in Texas, my family had a field trial bred duck hunting lab, that was definitely not bred as a pointing lab, that would point the neighbor's chickens in the brush. I've heard of other "true labs" that pointed for whatever reason. If you start breeding some of these labs together and focus on the pointing instinct, you get pointing labs. Not hard to figure out. Most labs that aren't bred to point won't ever point, but it's a gene floating around in all labs that pops up from time to time and occurs with regularity if you breed for it.
Click to expand...

I have owned many lab's over the years and would agree with what you say. A couple of dogs ago my big male Luke started locking up on birds at about 5 or so. He wasn't from pointing stock. I personally believe the pointing lab came from dogs with a bad or timid flush. I have seen some lab's mixed with setters and they don't look like most of the pointing lab's i have seen
 
dead pheasants forever said:
Have you observed this firsthand or is this coming from "a friend of a friend of a friend"? All breeds occasionally get accused of cross-breeding with another breed by people who are spinning tales. The fact of the matter is that labs probably already have Setter blood as part of their foundation from the 1800's, not from shady breeding 20 years ago. The English brought some retrievers back from Canada, created and refined the Lab breed in England, and supposedly mixed in a small amount of Setter blood to add some athleticism. I'm sure the pointing instinct results from some recessive gene from a foundation dog from the 1800's. My Pointing Lab looks no more like a Setter than any non-pointing Lab. I've seen dozens of Pointing Labs and have also owned non-pointing Labs and can't say that I see any difference between pointing and non-pointing labs in physical appearance, so I highly doubt that Pointing Labs are an English Setter cross from 20 years ago.

FYI - It's not uncommon for Labs to have a small patch of white on the chest. This comes from the St. John's water dog, which is the primary foundation dog for the Lab and has lots of white on its chest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John's_water_dog.
Click to expand...

Dead Pheasants Forever, states in pretty good, you just don't start mixing breeds and and in 10 or 20 years breed out completely some of those charateristics of that mix you started with----I have not seen any highly feathered blk & white spots popping up in pointing lab litters. I have had Labs now for about 23 years, English Bred, American Bred that were suppose to be total flushers, but they would still point a sitting type pheasant, just don't let that bird move a feather or they would be on it. Now my pointing lab points and stays locked but he also will go if that bird starts moving out. Like was stated above if you breed for a certain charateristic and keep breeding those individuals you can develop this....check the pedigree's of the pointing labs, you won't see many FC's up close at all
 
No thanks. 9 out of 10 vets are lost when it comes to retriever breeding and training. Very hard to find a dependable veterinarian these days. Looks like you have a dandy.
 
Well-stated, John. While Hank is a high-end dog & worth every dollar, others were substantially less and were extreme values as it turned-out. My pups have always been my companions & when it comes to bad habits and lapses during performance in the field, I happen to hold that title.
 
carptom1 said:
I have owned many lab's over the years and would agree with what you say. A couple of dogs ago my big male Luke started locking up on birds at about 5 or so. He wasn't from pointing stock. I personally believe the pointing lab came from dogs with a bad or timid flush. I have seen some lab's mixed with setters and they don't look like most of the pointing lab's i have seen
Click to expand...
Kind of what I never understood about the pointing lab bit. Do you want a flusher or a pointer? A Pointer that flushes before or after you tell it to? (VERY BAD FORM AND HARD ON THE DOG WHEN YOU WANT HIM TO POINT). Sounds like confusion to me.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top