Good Dog Work

V

V-John

Active member
What is good dog work to you? Everyone seems to have their opinion of what good dog work is. I will see these great threads about hunting trips, and folks mention that they had good dog work. What is good dog work?
(As an aside, I only have experience with the pointing type dogs, so let me throw that disclaimer out before I continue)
I suppose it all matters on the level that you are trying to get to as far as training goes, and your personal expectations for your dogs.
What might bad dog work for me, might be acceptable for others and that's ok. Or vice versa.
For me, the dog has to find and point birds. Hold them until I get there.
Creeping, or helping me flush is unacceptable. They must stand until I flush. I want them to stand after the flush. Sometimes they break after the flush but it's usually delayed. I'm not a big fan of that, and am working to correct that.
I want them to back.
Shooting a bird is secondary.
What about you?
 
V-John said:
What is good dog work to you? Everyone seems to have their opinion of what good dog work is. I will see these great threads about hunting trips, and folks mention that they had good dog work. What is good dog work?
(As an aside, I only have experience with the pointing type dogs, so let me throw that disclaimer out before I continue)
I suppose it all matters on the level that you are trying to get to as far as training goes, and your personal expectations for your dogs.
What might bad dog work for me, might be acceptable for others and that's ok. Or vice versa.
For me, the dog has to find and point birds. Hold them until I get there.
Creeping, or helping me flush is unacceptable. They must stand until I flush. I want them to stand after the flush. Sometimes they break after the flush but it's usually delayed. I'm not a big fan of that, and am working to correct that.
I want them to back.
Shooting a bird is secondary.
What about you?
Click to expand...

While I agree with most all you have said, I only have one area that differs. When I am on wild pheasant I don't mind a dog that is not steady to shot as we have all seen a crippled bird get away. My thinking is if I can have a dog almost meet that bird at the ground my success rate is better. Up to the point of adding me to the equation the dog did its job so why should it not be rewarded for it vs. not because of my lack luster shooting. With this being said it is a very quick and easy correction in the event that I miss. Quail is totally different. At the end of the day I want a well mannered, honest, hard charging dog that handles the situation accordingly.

Good thread topic I look forward to reading it. I too am a pointer guy just to keep it clear.
 
This should get a range of responses. Being a ex pointer guy, i certainly understand and respect good pointer work. Holding points without creeping, backing, and style were all part of it for me. With a flusher it is totally different. I don't have a pointing lab. I want a dog that combs the cover well, and charges hard. He must have a good nose, and stay engaged even when birds are scarce. I like my dog to be within 40 or so yards. Other guys seem to want there flushers to range more than that. He must hold to shot, mark well and attack the retrieve. Deliver to hand and ready to go to the next one. I had a great day in SD this last winter that made me unable to wait till next season. My current dog has just turned 3 in march and he is just starting to get good. Hopefully we will be able to build on this past season. I do have one thing it is a little tougher to hunt any preserve or pen raised birds. Unfortunately my dog will just catch most of the hens and some of the cocks. He is the only one of my dogs that has done this. He has a very aggressive retrieve.
 
shock collar on your dog

nobody can brag unless their dog can do reasonable when the shock collar is left in the vehicle

sooo you have a real good dog- BUT- the shock collar is on- just in case

ok- take the collar off-

no 2 ways about it- any dog with a shock collar on isn't in the class with one that doesn't have the shock collar on-
 
With my setter it took a year just to keep him in the county. He is a runner. Now that he is calming down, we are working on steady to flush. Right now he is at about 50%. The farther out he is when he goes on point, the more likely he is to bust the birds. Eventually my plan is to have him steady to wing, shot, and fall and back accordingly.

With my springers, I expect a nice quartering pattern within gun range. I expect a hard flush and a calm retrieve to hand or honor the other dog's retrieve. My female is maybe 75% steady to flush. The male is 0% as he is young. They will both be steady eventually.
 
I am pretty much in line with John. But I would add that I expect the dog to back and not creep in. Stop to flush is also nice.

But I would also like to see the dog using its head and hitting the likely cover.


With or without a collar :)
 
Good dog work can occur at all levels. Depends on the age of the dog and it's experience. You can get good dog work out of a 6 month old that wouldn't be considered good dog work of a 2yo or a well seasoned veteran.

It's all relative..........................
 
For me it depends on the species or sub-species being hunted, TERRAIN and density of the vegetation as where I am hunting.

I want a dog that I can trust his or her nose and the ability to Obey commands and stay engaged throughout the entire hunting process, until the bird is in my hand. By trust I mean, if birds are running in front of the dogs. I don’t want a statue of a dog; I want the dog to relocate without flushing the birds. A pointing dog can be used as a flusher by simply training the dog with a simple release command.

When hunting in dense vegetation where it is impossible for a lone hunter to walk-in and do the flush; I use a simple “Okay” command to release the dog from it's point, so that the hunter can be positioned too make the best shot. When hunting with multiple hunters, this may not be needed, but when hunting alone you will put more birds in the bag.

When hunting “Running” Blue Quail a dog that is rock-hard steady at first scent of birds and is not allowed to re-locate to the stronger scent or by sight is at a disadvantage. The birds will prevail in most cases.

I have learned over the years that older dogs have the ability to find, locate and reposition without busting birds. This can be achieved with a great deal of success with an experience dog, if you’re willing to trust the dog! At what age, well that depends on the amount time invested in training and working the dog on wild birds!
 
Shadow said:
shock collar on your dog

nobody can brag unless their dog can do reasonable when the shock collar is left in the vehicle

sooo you have a real good dog- BUT- the shock collar is on- just in case

ok- take the collar off-

no 2 ways about it- any dog with a shock collar on isn't in the class with one that doesn't have the shock collar on-
Click to expand...

This says nothing about the orgin of the thread.

What is "reasonable"?

I don't personally want a dog that will "help" me flush. That's why I train for it.
Shock collars is more of a methods discussion.
Your disdain for them is about equivalent to my disdain for the Wolters book.
 
Cobblestone said:
Good dog work can occur at all levels. Depends on the age of the dog and it's experience. You can get good dog work out of a 6 month old that wouldn't be considered good dog work of a 2yo or a well seasoned veteran.

It's all relative..........................
Click to expand...

That is a very good point. The "good" dog work depends on the expectations you have of a given dog at a given age / experience.
 
For me good dog work is covering ground in intelligent manner, using the wind, seeking likely cover, not a dog who spends to much time in unlikely spots. Also a dog who can trail a runner or crippled bird. A dog who knows when to have his nose up and when to have it down and doesn't waste time or potter.
 
Shadow said:
shock collar on your dog

nobody can brag unless their dog can do reasonable when the shock collar is left in the vehicle

sooo you have a real good dog- BUT- the shock collar is on- just in case

ok- take the collar off-

no 2 ways about it- any dog with a shock collar on isn't in the class with one that doesn't have the shock collar on-
Click to expand...

While I tend to agrre with you, the collor is a regretable necessity if you have the opportunity to run into snakes, porkies, coons skunks or other diversions. The versitile breeds have a fur agression built in. The Pudelpointer male for instance is the best behaved male breed overall when it comes to messing around with other male dog breeds. If he gets on a coon it is a different story.
I had a female point two porkies in less than ten minutes last fall. She had a collor on and I did not have to use it, but I was much more comfortable knowing she would respond to it if needed. Of course she knew it was there too. Late in the season when the critters are pretty much out of the way I often hunt without collor use.
 
quail hound said:
For me good dog work is covering ground in intelligent manner, using the wind, seeking likely cover, not a dog who spends to much time in unlikely spots. Also a dog who can trail a runner or crippled bird. A dog who knows when to have his nose up and when to have it down and doesn't waste time or potter.
Click to expand...

Very well put.
 
quail hound said:
For me good dog work is covering ground in intelligent manner, using the wind, seeking likely cover, not a dog who spends to much time in unlikely spots. Also a dog who can trail a runner or crippled bird. A dog who knows when to have his nose up and when to have it down and doesn't waste time or potter.
Click to expand...

Nailed it!
 
V-John said:
This says nothing about the orgin of the thread.

What is "reasonable"?

I don't personally want a dog that will "help" me flush. That's why I train for it.
Shock collars is more of a methods discussion.
Your disdain for them is about equivalent to my disdain for the Wolters book.
Click to expand...

nice slam there fella-

you think Wolters is a joke- you never trained a dog by his method- you hunt yours with shock collars

I don't think Wolters is a joke- I trained a dog by his book- I don't hunt mine with shock collars

A dog is doing good dog work- take the collar off- it's good or it isn't
 
Shadow, we've been down this road before regarding e-collars and you have made you point very clear in the past and again here. Please, everyone, lets just leave it at that and not let this thread turn ugly.

Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree. No need to carry it any further.
 
Uncle Buck said:
While I tend to agrre with you, the collor is a regretable necessity if you have the opportunity to run into snakes, porkies, coons skunks or other diversions. The versitile breeds have a fur agression built in. The Pudelpointer male for instance is the best behaved male breed overall when it comes to messing around with other male dog breeds. If he gets on a coon it is a different story.
I had a female point two porkies in less than ten minutes last fall. She had a collor on and I did not have to use it, but I was much more comfortable knowing she would respond to it if needed. Of course she knew it was there too. Late in the season when the critters are pretty much out of the way I often hunt without collor use.
Click to expand...
Please explain why you think a pudelpointer "best behaved------ male dog breeds" ??? Cant say Ive seen or agree with that statement.
 
I think my expectations of what I would call "good dog work" probably overlaps some with others' expectations, but I would agree with the OP that there is a lot of stuff I would overlook that would be a no-no to many of you. Kind of like Cobblestone's astute comment that good dog work is relative to the dog's age, I would also agree with the OP that it is relative to the dog's level of training and the handler's expectations.

Lots of good answers already, but I would say I want a dog to put on a good, thorough search, appropriate to the terrain. Range should be appropriate to the terrain. The dog(s) should hit the most likely cover thoroughly, and not cheat by running the outside edges.

If I can leave my whistle in my pocket all day long and the only words I say to the dog are "good girl", and "load up" at the end, then it was good dog work. I like to see the dog look back and locate me when she makes a turn, just to make sure I'm where she thinks I should be.:laugh: Good teamwork and cooperation is key for me.

If every bird that goes down comes back promptly and unmolested, then it was good dog work. Bonus points awarded for bringing back a lively one to hand, and double bonus points for a long, difficult track and retrieve on a cripple.

Good dog work should make you feel proud of your dog at the end of the day and is a good reason to brag on a buddy's dog.

I agree with the assertion that "getting birds" is of secondary importance to how they are collected, but I don't mind a dog helping me flush or breaking at the flush in the least. If the dog has pointed a bird and held point until I get there, then I think she has done her job well. Also, relocating on her own or doing whatever else needs to be done to pin the bird on her own is major bonus points for me, whereas some would look down on it...

I guess my definition of good dog work would boil down to two things. I want to see a dog using all of her natural abilities to the Nth degree, and also hunting with me as a team. When those two things come together, like they usually do, then it makes for a very satisfying hunt.
 
Shadow said:
nice slam there fella-

you think Wolters is a joke- you never trained a dog by his method- you hunt yours with shock collars

I don't think Wolters is a joke- I trained a dog by his book- I don't hunt mine with shock collars

A dog is doing good dog work- take the collar off- it's good or it isn't
Click to expand...

I owned the book. I read it.

No, I didn't train a dog using it because of the reason you stated above.
Because I thought it was a joke. Anytime you have to "scare" your dog into whoaing, well...

But how about this.
What is your opinion of good dog work? Without the using the word "collar" howabout?

But getting back to the original thread, there have been some very good posts. Thanks.
 
NSTRA Trials are all about good dog work for the pointing dog. They are graded on the finds, retrieves, ground coverage, obedience and backing. A dog that scores well in all five of these catagories has done "good dog work". Since NSTRA trials are about as close as it gets to actual hunting I think it would be fair to apply the same grading for dog work in normal hunting situations.

Just because the dog does not find a bunch of birds doesn't necessarily mean it didn't do a good job. As I've experienced in trials the scenting conditions can change from one brace to the next. I now believe there are days when we hit a field and produce very few or no birds and we think either there were no birds in the field or the dog is having an off day. I think there are those times when there may be plenty of birds present but due to scenting conditions the dog just doesn't find them. Not the fault of the dog and the dog probably could still be said to have done "Good Dog Work".
 
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