Fracking, what will this do to the future of no only animals but people too

onpoint

Active member
Read what is happening where this Fracking is going full tilt. Western North Dakota, eastern Montana, is their future? no water? poisoned water?

Then they want a pipeline to get the oil to the gulf for export to the world market. Oil is our largest export. We export more then we use.

I believe we are headed down the wrong road. Many, many say hunting as we knew it these areas is all but gone.

Read this

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/aug/11/texas-tragedy-ample-oil-no-water
 
I don't think fracking will have much effect on birds in North Dakota and Montana. The article you posted is on West Texas, which is much drier than North Dakota or Montana. There are towns in West Texas in areas without fracking that have emptied their aquifers. Also, the birds don't rely on aquifers hundreds of feet down for water. They need rain. I don't think the oil production activity above ground really bothers the birds either. The 70's and 80's were the glory years for quail hunting in Texas, and there was way more drilling in Texas back then, particularly in the areas with quail.

I do question the wisdom of farmers in dry areas selling their water for fracking and whether they'll have enough well water for their crops in 20 years, but that's a different issue.
 
The lowering of any aquifer can be a bad thing....the reasons for it though are often plural and seldom limited to hate or distrust of Big Oil, Big Ag or whatever.
Seeing a fundamental change in parts of the plains affecting many species, game and other, has not been exactly an unexpected future prior to the recent hydrocarbon boom.

Hydraulic fracturing will play a part but rather than blame a long-used process, it would be wise to place the blame on the attitudes and ignorance which have delivered a pretty poor past energy policy and, especially, dependence.
What you are seeing now are the upsides and downsides of a boom, a technologically-driven boom...a bit different but at the heart, it is such as it has always been and always will be.

In the East, it is not the Bakken Play but the Marcellus and Utica. Drawing down an aquifer not being the issue there as much as depletion of surface and trout streams water.
Obtaining the water for these new Plays is indeed a watchful thing but more so is the handling of produced water everywhere...which, as I recall, has caused some problems around Alexander in ND.
Monitoring and holding the appropriate feet to the fire is the ticket.
Concerns in both areas are legitimate but never the entire story.
Concerns often are voiced when there are larger agendas behind and driving them.

Besides that, I expect the incoming $$$s and influx of people seeking or realizing a better/different future for themselves will offer a greater potential for negative change re game birds than hydraulic fracturing itself.
Fracturing is simply an easy to offer black hat target of the moment.
 
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Something smells fishy?! When the writer of the column throws all his cards on the table and blames big business, drought and climate change? I read loud and clear their agenda. I am sorry but I don't see climate change as a real issue. It does sell well in politics but sorry I don't believe it is real. So as far as the oil companies killing the birds I am going to question that one as well because it tends to play into people's political agenda! I know this could end up being a really long political rant but I know there are always two sides to every story.
 
So where's the water go when they bust(fracking) the rock deep in the ground? I know, it's illegal for the clean drinking water in the ground to mix with the oil that has now found a path to one another. If it's so on the up and up, why have these people, including their young children who settled with a company doing fracking in Pennsylvania. Been ordered to NEVER, EVER speak of fracking the rest of their life? Hmmmm, paid to shut thir mouth.

http://www.adn.com/2013/08/05/3008912/pa-judged-hired-by-parnell-administration.html

http://www.philebrity.com/2013/08/1...cking-theyll-make-sure-you-never-do-it-again/
 
So where's the water go when they bust(fracking) the rock deep in the ground? I know, it's illegal for the clean drinking water in the ground to mix with the oil that has now found a path to one another. If it's so on the up and up, why have these people, including their young children who settled with a company doing fracking in Pennsylvania. Been ordered to NEVER, EVER speak of fracking the rest of their life? Hmmmm, paid to shut thir mouth.

I'm guessing it indeed was to shut their mouth as the folks were "long-term shale gas critics", according to the article. No doubt some young or old-hand attorney felt it wise and cheap to keep from experiencing continual court action on both sides to pay and seal the deal.
We live in a litigious society these days.
It was a smart move and one not guaranteed to be from simple fear of comment.
Equally no doubt, those folks were not mineral rights owners.:)
But I also expect that the activity and noise were not what the family signed on for when they began living in that location....that can happen and never is a good thing on an individual basis.
Same to a degree as an Interstate cutting the mountains or Canaan Valley in WVa being inundated with timeshares and condos and becoming a sad shell of the valley it once was.
Still, folks benefitted from that Interstate and those condos....and some folks had their lifestyle altered.

A study was completed this year by an independent national lab on the possibility of contamination from Marcellus activity in Pennsylvania and fresh water wells after receiving many complaints.
Any negative connection came up a blank....zero, zilch.
Most understand that the 8K depth of the Marcellus versus the fresh water zones in Pa. would render that unlikely unless of a failure of the many strings of casing and cement but they wisely investigated anyway. Again, most also know, that the oft-heard claims of natural gas in fresh water wells and tap water has occurred for over a hundred years in the Apps.
Naturally-occurring shallow gas is also why many coal mines continue to have explosions if the air-handling system fails.

As to where the water goes post-fracturing, a large portion is returned to the surface during production, hence my note on the importance of produced water treatment and handling. This is where concern is very important....and if some wise heads get thinking, then it is where money could be made in designing a better filter and treatment process.
Some treatment water will stay in the formation.
One reason that gas is found in the shale, or sandstone at lesser depths, is the nature of impervious layers sandwiched with producing formations. If the difficulty of movement were not so difficult or natural fractures were everywhere, gas would never be trapped in concentrations sufficient for an economical look.
I do believe that the nature of the ND action is different than back East...the terrain and conditions alone can make the problems greater.
ND and many folks are making money but I do expect that it will be awhile before normality returns and if I hunted in NW ND then I, selfishly, would not be a happy camper.

The real issue to me in any of these Plays is in the amount of money to be made since that draws folks that may not have the experience to cross all the Ts...before, during or after a fracturing treatment.
This is where, most often, industrial accidents happen and accidents do and will continue to happen.
The state should concentrate the inspectors and inspections, fine to H and back for any violations and, most importantly, hire inspectors that know what they are looking at...good or bad.
ND, for example, is floating in money and spending it for these purposes is wise.
As to game birds and critters, any time WE humans flood an area it is never a good thing for the critters. Pheasants adapt better than many game birds, they have it much, much, much better but there is no doubt that any big industrial boom will negatively affect critter species.
Always has been so and always will be so.
Just before, it has often been what has built America...and may still be.

The Internet guarantees that one can find data to support just about any belief. One can find the pro-gas and anti-gas pretend documentaries.
Search and ye shall find...but the found information is often very flawed in all measures from the agenda of those putting the info out there.
If one has a propensity to hate Big Whatever then the false data will appeal...same as if you hate Big Government, wisely, then you can all too easily swallow the Glen Beck BS so prominent today.
Sift Internet info well....very well, and apply a bit of commonsense to avoid being caught and used and manipulated by either side in a discussion.

Just as an aside, in my area, game and non-game species have more to lose and have lost more from Deer hunting Leasing and ignorance toward the demands of a healthy forest than from the Marcellus or Utica activity.:(
Way more!
And people too, if one counts hunters...old and, especially, young.
 
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20-30 years from now, I doubt there will be much sign of the current fracking boom besides some abandoned wells. Most of the people will leave too, there is nothing to keep people there once the jobs leave. There will probably be some water issues here and there, but for the most part nature will reclaim the land.

Corn based ethanol and ethanol fuel mandates are a much larger danger to wildlife than fracking. The problem is that neither political party wants to speak out against ethanol for fear of losing the farm vote.
 
OP,
Sorry dude, this is worng. I worked in the oil fields from oky to ak. There is not a problem with this practice. It goes down thousands of feet below ground water, in almost all cases. You as a farmer are more responsible for causing problems with the environment that fracking. You want to pay 10 bucks a gallon for fuel ?
 
OP,
Sorry dude, this is worng. I worked in the oil fields from oky to ak. There is not a problem with this practice. It goes down thousands of feet below ground water, in almost all cases. You as a farmer are more responsible for causing problems with the environment that fracking. You want to pay 10 bucks a gallon for fuel ?

I'm not sure the whole verdict is out yet on this new technology. Most people are unaware of the export intensions of this by-product, so the $10 per gallon for gas therory is a non-player. I would also say that just the increase amount of fragmentation in the landscape alone is enough too make some species vacate the area.
 
The well water in that area is terrible anyway.
Rural water pipelines are common.
Bakken oil has in fact ruined a lot of good pheasant country. Nobody but a few hunters care. Land owners are making more money then they ever dreamed. So are all those that are employed directly and indirectly.

I think? as long as the area is ruined, why not a world class refinery, right there.:eek:
 
ive been to western OK & WEST TX oil country to say that after the oil boom & people leave nature will take back the land is just not the case... animals do come back true...

but peoples hand changes that land for ever after they do what they do be it water or the big ugly oil wells they leave behind or the little buildings they leave for natural gas or the bad smells...

you will be out in a vast beautiful grassland & hear nothing but jack pump engines sure wrecks a hunting trip or vacation to hear that & hissing all nite from a gas/oil well in the distance...

they have detoured many of the remaining lessor prairie chickens or intruded on there habitat in western OK wear i hunt turkey... them birds may be like sage grouse & need large un interrupted tracks of prairie to make it them huge oil rigs mess that all up...

i hunt with a bunch of life long OK boys that all have maid $$$ or had family make $$$ of oil in 1 way shape or form & even they said what happened to our hunting area last year was just horrible for all the animals out there...

yes yes there was a drought & it did hurt the reproduction of quail pheasant & turkeys ETC. but they had more moisture out there this yr then last & the only difference was the oil/gas activity in our hunting areas i mean they were as close to the public hunting lands as they could get i was so bad the camp we always camp at was with in ear shout of oil rig workers what a bunch of B/S all the regulars had to move camp for peace & quit it was not cool...

goldenboy will think twice about the global warming thing when the last of the glaciers all melt away & the polar ice pack turns to ocean... dont have to think its a real issue thats fine once you take the blinders off please post another comment...

global warming is such a threat even the CIA is looking into the changes due to the looming threat global warming causes the USA & the rest of the world for that matter... look it up its not just al gore talking about it any longer man... lol

the ND biologist i have spoke with all share the same views on oil oil is not good for wildlife especially when farmers remove lands from CRP to sell the writes to oil boys... its very simple no hidden agenda there...

i have a buddy whos family sold land writes near new town ND he is not a hunter & he even makes $$$ of the oil & all he can say is man what a crock of S*** they wrecked all the land??? i have not been out there so im just going off what he said... he used to see sharptails huns & pheasant but says that was 3 years or more ago he has not seen any of his last 2 trips out there i guess??? he also says at night it looks like a oils field city out there & open flames burning all over hes not a big nature guy & he said man how sad it is what they did to that land for $$$
 
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ive been to western OK & WEST TX oil country to say that after the oil boom & people leave nature will take back the land is just not the case... animals do come back true...

but peoples hand changes that land for ever after they do what they do be it water or the big ugly oil wells they leave behind or the little buildings they leave for natural gas or the bad smells...

you will be out in a vast beautiful grassland & hear nothing but jack pump engines sure wrecks a hunting trip or vacation to hear that & hissing all nite from a gas/oil well in the distance...

they have detoured many of the remaining lessor prairie chickens or intruded on there habitat in western OK wear i hunt turkey... them birds may be like sage grouse & need large un interrupted tracks of prairie to make it them huge oil rigs mess that all up...

i hunt with a bunch of life long OK boys that all have maid $$$ or had family make $$$ of oil in 1 way shape or form & even they said what happened to our hunting area last year was just horrible for all the animals out there...

yes yes there was a drought & it did hurt the reproduction of quail pheasant & turkeys ETC. but they had more moisture out there this yr then last & the only difference was the oil/gas activity in our hunting areas i mean they were as close to the public hunting lands as they could get i was so bad the camp we always camp at was with in ear shout of oil rig workers what a bunch of B/S all the regulars had to move camp for peace & quit it was not cool...

goldenboy will think twice about the global warming thing when the last of the glaciers all melt away & the polar ice pack turns to ocean... dont have to think its a real issue thats fine once you take the blinders off please post another comment...

global warming is such a threat even the CIA is looking into the changes due to the looming threat global warming causes the USA & the rest of the world for that matter... look it up its not just al gore talking about it any longer man... lol

the ND biologist i have spoke with all share the same views on oil oil is not good for wildlife especially when farmers remove lands from CRP to sell the writes to oil boys... its very simple no hidden agenda there...

i have a buddy whos family sold land writes near new town ND he is not a hunter & he even makes $$$ of the oil & all he can say is man what a crock of S*** they wrecked all the land??? i have not been out there so im just going off what he said... he used to see sharptails huns & pheasant but says that was 3 years or more ago he has not seen any of his last 2 trips out there i guess??? he also says at night it looks like a oils field city out there & open flames burning all over hes not a big nature guy & he said man how sad it is what they did to that land for $$$

I have a couple of questions. They tell me there used to be a glacier where I live, it was before my time but what melted that glacier and how good was the pheasant hunting here before it melted? If we don't develop the gas and oil resources, how are you going to go on your hunting trips? Without doubt gas and oil development will be detrimental to wildlife. So are towns and cities and hiways and farming. Should we stop everything for wildlife? Please don't misunderstand if we change the world it should bear the mark of our intelligence. We should do what we do carefully but unless we can get a billion or two people to volunteer to go away, we are going to have to use our resourses. If there is anybody around here in a thousand years they probably won't notice much from fracking.
 
"Please don't misunderstand, if we change the world it should bear the mark of our intelligence"...well reasoned, Haymaker.

People are the real issue #1, just that out in the Plains the sheer mass of people and their needs were, to a degree, slow-er to reach and affect that which has become important to the comparably recent creation of sport hunting. All of which accentuated the fretting and angst due to the short span and nature of a hunter's and a dog's life.
In the East, development booms have helped and hurt wildlife....the glory days in the Appalachians re the ruffed grouse would not have been possible w/o the clearcut and coal mine and temporary surface devastation. Devastation that no doubt many decried and assumed would never be better.
Of course, rain did negatively affect land shorn of trees and yes, hunters as an additive factor also did negatively slam game, game bird and non-game populations.
Booms hurt in that people follow the money...with condos and golf courses and the attitudes of a short-roller.
Little new here...old, old news.
Dying cyclic booms have also lead to reversion of farmlands which lead to better game cover....certainly in the East and, perhaps, where plains birds make their home...thinking of the ever-popular photo of a brace of sharptails on a decaying wagon or windmill base.
Happens, as WE too often look no further than ourselves or no deeper than the popular agendas and black helicopters of the moment.
Easy to forget or see clearly that which has given us what we want today...a human trait.

Politicos and agenda folks take advantage of the short look all the time....it draws votes and $$$s to organizations.
Viewed over the millennia, the cycle in climate is little more than conveniently forgotten history.
Viewed over a span equal to election cycles, that same cycle becomes a banner to obtain votes, separate people and divert focus.
Can spikes up or down in any cycle occur?...sure, especially when People demand ever more of something.
Yet another human trait.

Areas of ND will not recover from this oil boom(not any hydraulic fracture treatment lost leader) within the span of a dog's life....not good.
I suspect some areas will never be the same....nor will some people's lives be the same, to the good and bad.
More old news.
As Haymaker implied....we do need to use our wisdom more than our selfishness of thought when faced with change.
 
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Oil is not a US major export. The US exports very little crude oil. What it does export is a large amount of refined petroleum products.

Think of it this way. We pump about 7M BBL/day of crude in the US and rising.
We import 7.5m bbl/day of crude from around the world. We send much of that back out as refined products in the form of gas, diesel, kerosene, etc.

It's like importing cotton and turning it into fabric to be sold elsewhere. We consider that a good thing but somehow the demagoguery surrounding oil has gotten to the point that anything to do with it is surrounded by crazy rhetoric and sheer stupidity.
 
Oil is not a US major export. The US exports very little crude oil. What it does export is a large amount of refined petroleum products.

Think of it this way. We pump about 7M BBL/day of crude in the US and rising.
We import 7.5m bbl/day of crude from around the world. We send much of that back out as refined products in the form of gas, diesel, kerosene, etc.

It's like importing cotton and turning it into fabric to be sold elsewhere. We consider that a good thing but somehow the demagoguery surrounding oil has gotten to the point that anything to do with it is surrounded by crazy rhetoric and sheer stupidity.

There are a lot of oil reserves in the US and close by off shore.
That will probably, more than likely. Be taped into sooner or later as it is needed.
Murph, You are correct.
 
How can anyone think for a minute that pumping anything into the ground thousands of feet down to force something else out of the ground is a good idea for the land or the people on it?

It's just crazy, nobody I mean nobody knows for sure if it is safe or not. So why do it? $$$$

All the money in the world is not worth having your grandkids or great grandkids walking around with a 3rd eye or not walking at all cause the ground water is toxic?

When they can show you what they are putting into the ground in writing and have proof that it is safe then go for it, but until then what the HELL are we thinking?:confused:
 
How can anyone think for a minute that pumping anything into the ground thousands of feet down to force something else out of the ground is a good idea for the land or the people on it?

It's just crazy, nobody I mean nobody knows for sure if it is safe or not. So why do it? $$$$

All the money in the world is not worth having your grandkids or great grandkids walking around with a 3rd eye or not walking at all cause the ground water is toxic?

When they can show you what they are putting into the ground in writing and have proof that it is safe then go for it, but until then what the HELL are we thinking?:confused:

Right on!!!!
 
How can anyone think for a minute that pumping anything into the ground thousands of feet down to force something else out of the ground is a good idea for the land or the people on it?

It's just crazy, nobody I mean nobody knows for sure if it is safe or not. So why do it? $$$$

All the money in the world is not worth having your grandkids or great grandkids walking around with a 3rd eye or not walking at all cause the ground water is toxic?

When they can show you what they are putting into the ground in writing and have proof that it is safe then go for it, but until then what the HELL are we thinking?:confused:

Sorry, some of you think this is a new process. It is not new. That's one. Number two. It has nothing to do with oil. Fracking is used to extract Natural Gas. The process involving oil shale is much Different, than Fracking. Do the research and prove me Wrong. :)
 
Sorry, some of you think this is a new process. It is not new. That's one. Number two. It has nothing to do with oil. Fracking is used to extract Natural Gas. The process involving oil shale is much Different, than Fracking. Do the research and prove me Wrong. :)


Well, I won't really prove you wrong as to the timeline of hydraulic fracturing but perhaps you are generalizing incorrectly a bit re oil in a way that can have the information misunderstood and then repeated incorrectly.
Any parroting of 1+1=3 is never good and is exactly how some of this silly, fear-mongering blather like "3rd eyes" re fracture treatments gets spread about the Internet town like firewood on a wagon.
We as a country need truth to win out, independent of the side the truth lies.

Truth is, hydraulic fracture treatments in oil producing zones are quite common across the country as a way to introduce proppants to created fractures in a producing zone. Some areas even use crude oil as the fracturing fluid itself, as opposed to gelled water or whatever.

As I implied previously, there are negatives and positives associated with any boom and this latest Bakken, Marcellus or Utica Play is not without either....in the Present or the Future....and affecting Man, Critter and the Land.
No need to go through that again.
However, there is always a need to understand where the legitimate concerns should lie.
It is a shame to see that need so often go wanting.
 
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