Advance, Advance, alway advance! Where are the facts? It might surprise you to recognize that this is an outdoor forum? Most of the participants might be skewed to believe in a conservative enviormentalist agenda. I believe there is non conclusive evidence, but disturbing ciatations we should acknowledge . Should we be wholesale going forward? Or maybe caution would be the word, we don't know that this is safe in all geology, yet it is being done nearly anywhere. If it terms out that it is badly designed, it may be to late! Remember we have a lot of EPA super fund, dead zones like Love Canal, Pitcher, Oklahoma. Maybe Williston, N.D. ? The certain aspect of this, is that somebody is benefitting financially. I see our research from people like BP, remember them? They were forthcoming in the gulf! I do not see a dramatic influence on our domestic cost of energy, I do see that it allows us to balance the trade deficit, again, that benefits the producers, not the guy buying natural gas, or filling up at the fuel pump. What makes a difference is decreased demand, in a world where we are circling away, ( I hope), from a near short term economical depression. Depression forces Conversation. Conservation is the key, not invading finite resources. Maybe we should take a cue from the Arab's who belief with a their heritage is in the ground, there's not enough to provide assurances to the future, so get what you can, and control the demand. Try to invent an expanded economy. Lots of energy in the world, we need to conserve what we need, and let the other providers produce energy, and because of our lack of demand, and no one other than China, who have a financial crisis of their own, now have to sell it cheaper. If we need it, we still have it, not like Nazi Germany, who used coal gasification to run the war machine, estimated at about 11.00 per gallon, but they had no choice. I am trying to avoid that!
Fracking, what will this do to the future of no only animals but people too
- Thread starter onpoint
- Start date
Advance, Advance, alway advance! Where are the facts? It might surprise you to recognize that this is an outdoor forum? Most of the participants might be skewed to believe in a conservative enviormentalist agenda. I believe there is non conclusive evidence, but disturbing ciatations we should acknowledge . Should we be wholesale going forward? Or maybe caution would be the word, we don't know that this is safe in all geology, yet it is being done nearly anywhere. If it terms out that it is badly designed, it may be to late! Remember we have a lot of EPA super fund, dead zones like Love Canal, Pitcher, Oklahoma. Maybe Williston, N.D. ? The certain aspect of this, is that somebody is benefitting financially. I see our research from people like BP, remember them? They were forthcoming in the gulf! I do not see a dramatic influence on our domestic cost of energy, I do see that it allows us to balance the trade deficit, again, that benefits the producers, not the guy buying natural gas, or filling up at the fuel pump. What makes a difference is decreased demand, in a world where we are circling away, ( I hope), from a near short term economical depression. Depression forces Conversation. Conservation is the key, not invading finite resources. Maybe we should take a cue from the Arab's who belief with a their heritage is in the ground, there's not enough to provide assurances to the future, so get what you can, and control the demand. Try to invent an expanded economy. Lots of energy in the world, we need to conserve what we need, and let the other providers produce energy, and because of our lack of demand, and no one other than China, who have a financial crisis of their own, now have to sell it cheaper. If we need it, we still have it, not like Nazi Germany, who used coal gasification to run the war machine, estimated at about 11.00 per gallon, but they had no choice. I am trying to avoid that!
Raising the specter of the Nazis...wow.
You don't often find anyone reaching for that low of a shelf.
Read slowly and completely what I have posted and you will not find the single-minded attitude that you and a few others find easiest to rail against for representing the polar opposite of what makes you apparently feel all aglow in fighting Mr. Big....like BP, eh?
That is the problem with the agendas on either side....the ears slam shut when the mouth flies open to spit words and phrases meant to enflame or enlist....like the word Nazis, eh deux?.
Agendas with the limits they and zealotry bring should be noted and countered wherever posted for the good of us all....yes, oddly enough, I know this is an outdoor forum and I, for one, do not believe that equals a Big Environmental forum where commonsense is checked at the computer keyboard.
Advance, yes! Of course.
Unrestricted or unregulated or unanything in the advance? No!, of course not.
Some assume caution is not being practiced at present, most often with the silly "fracking" tripwire, for the sole comfort of wishing to easily remind folks of apples and oranges comparisons cloaked in smoke....with, really, few here having an actual concept of anything past environmental abuse is a big company's Job #1.
What a biased, shallow crock that is.
I believe it was here that I earlier noted the idiocy of "Drill, Baby, Drill"...if not, it is....especially as regards the generalized offshore shelf but, elsewhere also.
Lord save us from the "experts" seeking to plump their enviro egos and business self-images at the expense of reality.
Naturally, conservation, along with a host of other factors working together and changing as time and events demand will serve us all best as regards energy issues....and as a rule, with many issues.
The exact same as concentrating on other factors along with Habitat will best serve gamebirds.
A Fool only expects a single answer to their question...we should be wiser as a country and less intent on choosing sides, much as for a playground battle of Them vs. Us.
But, too many today love that idea of Shirts and Skins as a solution.
More sad that.
You don't often find anyone reaching for that low of a shelf.
Read slowly and completely what I have posted and you will not find the single-minded attitude that you and a few others find easiest to rail against for representing the polar opposite of what makes you apparently feel all aglow in fighting Mr. Big....like BP, eh?
That is the problem with the agendas on either side....the ears slam shut when the mouth flies open to spit words and phrases meant to enflame or enlist....like the word Nazis, eh deux?.
Agendas with the limits they and zealotry bring should be noted and countered wherever posted for the good of us all....yes, oddly enough, I know this is an outdoor forum and I, for one, do not believe that equals a Big Environmental forum where commonsense is checked at the computer keyboard.
Advance, yes! Of course.
Unrestricted or unregulated or unanything in the advance? No!, of course not.
Some assume caution is not being practiced at present, most often with the silly "fracking" tripwire, for the sole comfort of wishing to easily remind folks of apples and oranges comparisons cloaked in smoke....with, really, few here having an actual concept of anything past environmental abuse is a big company's Job #1.
What a biased, shallow crock that is.
I believe it was here that I earlier noted the idiocy of "Drill, Baby, Drill"...if not, it is....especially as regards the generalized offshore shelf but, elsewhere also.
Lord save us from the "experts" seeking to plump their enviro egos and business self-images at the expense of reality.
Naturally, conservation, along with a host of other factors working together and changing as time and events demand will serve us all best as regards energy issues....and as a rule, with many issues.
The exact same as concentrating on other factors along with Habitat will best serve gamebirds.
A Fool only expects a single answer to their question...we should be wiser as a country and less intent on choosing sides, much as for a playground battle of Them vs. Us.
But, too many today love that idea of Shirts and Skins as a solution.
More sad that.
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Seems like your the one who takes sides? The nazi Germany had nothing to with political beliefs just that they had to use inefficient coal gasification to survive at incalcuable cost. Again, I see nothing that provides any evidence that this procedure is sound. I admit we need to find out, at which point we will see the truth. I'm not pro or anti anything, If you make a dollar it's fine with me, but I have big mistrust of anybody who's lifestyle is built on preserving the a technology which is yet unproven. We do know there is a cost, you know action/reaction, Walton, a proven scientific fact, because we do not know the reaction makes this more dicey. I don't know the shirts and skins analogy, looks just like the tea party congress to me, use the blame game to bolster either side. Have you ever blogged about pheasant hunting? or is Fracking your life's work?
I'm pro Honesty and my mistrust is in those who refuse to look past their own front bead or to the side on any issue.
They contribute little but barbershop back pats and a continuation of Them vs. Us wherever they take root as experts....and that leads nowhere good.
I don't advocate that either side on this or many issues is best or w/o harm, I blame both for their ignorance and narrowness of view....but, you apparently don't care to read slowly enough to find out or acknowledge what was clearly writ.
Lot of that going around these days...too much, sadly.
I suspect the reason is because that is the easiest road.
Yes, these are good days to take the easy road....well done.
No, I never blogged about pheasant hunting...I have posted on upland hunting and birddog message boards for some 10 years+, posted on hunting and birddogs and all and sundry that truly makes a day and, comparably, only rarely on an issue such as hydraulic fracturing.
Still, one speaks against ignorance wherever it is found, or should.
What was that "blogging" comment about?
Never mind...I see, it's spinning attention away from the uncomfortable.
If I do read profoundly wrong information posted as gospel or find good information spun to unreasonable conclusions and comparisons by one zealot or another, whether it be on hydraulic fracturing or that only "X" is best for whatever upland/hunting/dog/shooting use then...I comment with my opinion in the hopes that one person reads and considers another idea past what is found on that popular, easy and all too crowded road of same old, same old.
Considering is vitally important for everything, everywhere....it just seldom delivers the popular message board high-five for folks.
I'll leave you to your comfortable albeit, one-way Superslab ride to Nowheresville.
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AtTheMurph
Well-known member
Switch grass is actually harder to make ethanol out of than corn. Corn is easy. You are just making beer then distilling it to whiskey something that humans have been doing for centuries.
Switch grass is hard because you are trying to turn cellulose into ethanol. It would actually be far easier and more efficient to turn that into methanol rather than ethanol, but government has decided that ethanol is the winner already.
The ethanol is good superior potable. They have to poison to ship it. ATF is a fraid the citizen might way late an have, an utaxed, ( this tax rate is a sailient point here), pure grain/grape juice toga party! I wonder if switch grass is this good. Midwest Research did research with processing wood cellulose into fuel. One hurdle is you have burn in an air tight closed container, to make it work. It slows the process.
onpoint
Active member
Here ya go
Check out this North Dakota tap water
Ya wanna get yourself some of this South Dakota?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQfHDBq4M3I
Those who are working out there, just wait and see what your long term health issues will be. Then you can ask yourself...Was it worth it?
Check out this North Dakota tap water
Ya wanna get yourself some of this South Dakota?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQfHDBq4M3I
Those who are working out there, just wait and see what your long term health issues will be. Then you can ask yourself...Was it worth it?
dead pheasants forever
Member
I have an uncle who lives in North Dakota more than 50 miles from the nearest oil well. His well water has always lit on fire for as long as anyone can remember (decades) due to naturally occurring methane in the aquifer, although his house water doesn't do this anymore because he recently hooked up to city water (his outside water still does). Many generations of my family have lived off flammable well water with no ill effects, with everyone living into their 80's and 90's for the most part. The well water up there also has a slight brown tint due to the underground coal, which is supposedly related to the naturally occurring methane from what I'm told, although I'm not a geologist. The flammable water isn't caused by oil drilling and isn't harmful to people. I'm willing to bet this "Jake working in the oil fields" moved up there recently to work in the oil fields and doesn't know that the water up there has always lit on fire. Sorry to burst your bubble.
dead pheasants forever
Member
Since this is a pheasant hunting forum, I should also add that the North Dakota guys had a lot more pheasants this year than you South Dakota guys had despite all the flaming water, fracking, and other signs of the apocalypse. :thumbsup:
Yes sir. You are dead on ball correct about this post. Thank you. This post is going down hill. The people that have no Information about the practice of fracking have now Idea what is involved In ND the oil is very Deep. Well below the ground water. Fracking has nothing to do with water contamination in north Dakota . Do some dang research before shooting your mouth off. Learn to critically think about what you hear and use your Brains for a change. If you don't know what your talking about...........
I did not keep up with this thread . because I never thought it would run this long. should have been locked up long ago. Goes to prove that the mods on here let things go until it need to be locked down.:thumbsup:
onpoint
Active member
You post a run a person down post like this. Then complain about the mods not shutting it down because others are causing it to go south. Then just explain away tap water that burns as nothing to worry about, a normal thing. Conservative conservation at it's best. That kind of thinking will kill or make every rural person in America sick or dead.
mnmthunting
Banned
It's a rare water well in the Western third of ND that doesn't have methane in it. Was that way with the first homesteaders and is that way now.
Haven't heard of health problems for humans or livestock.
I know the well water makes horrible coffee.
Water conditioners are in every household. Even up here in N MN with the crystal clear waters, most everyone with water wells has Culligan or a similar system.
Haven't heard of health problems for humans or livestock.
I know the well water makes horrible coffee.
Water conditioners are in every household. Even up here in N MN with the crystal clear waters, most everyone with water wells has Culligan or a similar system.
Aquifers residing in rock with abundant coal seams will almost always produce biogenic natural gas when water is pumped out. The gas (mostly methane) is bonded tightly to the walls of the pores in the coals, and is held in place by the pressure of the water in the aquifer. pumping water from the aquifer liberates the gas which comes to the surface along with the produced water.
Any increases in methane in tap water is likely a result of increased demand for water in the area, which results in more water being removed from the aquifer and thus more methane being liberated from the rock.
Hydraulic fracturing taking place at 10,000-15,000 feet below the surface would have nothing to do with methane production at the surface. Even the most successful frac jobs only produce fractures a few hundred feet from the well bore.
No personal attacks here, just my $.02 as a geologist.
onpoint
Active member
Why would gas be filling in where water once was? Because fracking uses tremendous amounts of water.
Watch and listen.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2013/aug/11/texas-drought-fracking-video
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dead pheasants forever
Member
You explain it much better. Good to hear my butchered explanation of what my uncle told me wasn't too far off!
BRITTMAN
Well-known member
Well the greatest way for the US to gain financial independence, reduce reliance on foreign (especially Middle East/Arab) oil, and reduce transfer of money to the Arab states is to produce more.
Not In My BackYard mentality must stop. Sure make sure they maintain an environmentally good record, pay for the roads they destroy, etc... but North Dakota needs the oil money and the US does more so. I would argue MN needs North Dakota oil too. Just based on the number of Minnesotans working in ND for oil money it is a win, but many Minnesota companies are supplying materials to the ND oil region, in-turn creating jobs.
Alaska, Gulf Coast, and Colorado (the next North Dakota??) must all be fully utilized.
Build the pipe-line too.
Not In My BackYard mentality must stop. Sure make sure they maintain an environmentally good record, pay for the roads they destroy, etc... but North Dakota needs the oil money and the US does more so. I would argue MN needs North Dakota oil too. Just based on the number of Minnesotans working in ND for oil money it is a win, but many Minnesota companies are supplying materials to the ND oil region, in-turn creating jobs.
Alaska, Gulf Coast, and Colorado (the next North Dakota??) must all be fully utilized.
Build the pipe-line too.
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BRITTMAN
Well-known member
Lowest cost natural gas has saved many US industries. The cost of energy and feedstocks in the US are competitive on a world scale.
Many industries that were failing, moving off-shore, or uncompetitive have flipped to export !!!
This means JOBs and a better US economy. This means lowering the trade deficit. This means increased tax revenue.
Many industries that were failing, moving off-shore, or uncompetitive have flipped to export !!!
This means JOBs and a better US economy. This means lowering the trade deficit. This means increased tax revenue.