Best way for pointing dog to handle phez

Shadow said:
jetjockey- not sure why you included my words in that post

I sit here and look at the 1/4 mile of wheat- which was corn stubble last year- has a nice stretch of 24-32" tall grass at the end that is 160 yards wide tapering to 40 yards wide at the end of the 1/2 mile

I always try to keep my Britt's out of it- because with 3 Britt's I can shoot 4 roosters in 10 or so min- isn't any fun for me or the Britt's

not sure why those guys would ever come back in the same day- we run it- every rooster and hen is gone by the time we cover it well- never seen a pheasant come back untill the evening to roost- matter of fact every pheasant left it alone for a day or so- must be tame pheasants
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Because you said its no place for a pointing dog, and I simply disagreed. Besides, 90% of most hunters don't know where the birds are, thats why they call it hunting.

Why would you do it? Because often times a small field is all the cover there is to hold birds, and because when training, it can easily seperate the great dogs from the not so great dogs. Wanna watch a pointing dog without a lot of bird experience or a dog who doesn't have what it takes, unravel? Put it in a 3 or 4 acre field with lots of running pheasants. Wanna be able to tell if a dog is ever going to have the steadyness on birds needed to win trials, push it to extremes. In the beginning of the video I posted, you can hear the trainer say "this is 3 year old stuff". He did it to demonstrate the steadiness of my pup at only 14 months old. That is simply something you can not train unless a dog has a TON of wild bird experience.....

You seem to think what makes a good dog is the fastest to find and shoot a 4 bird limit in Kansas, I know that it takes much, much more then that to be a great bird dog, especially in trials. Where every aspect of the dog is judged. From range, style, speed, hunting ability, bidability, bird work, everything! And thats why I suggested you enter your dogs in some trials. Wanna know how good they really are? Thats how you find out, because its not just about the fastest dog to 4 birds. Its about the entire package. Very few dogs have what it takes to win at the highest level, and that is why prodigee from those dogs who do win at the highest level, are so sought after.
 
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you two boys need to settle down and pm each other. starting to sound like a lovers quarrels and a lot of folks are seeing the dirty laundry.....
 
It seems that some folks think all pointing dogs are big running dogs. My setters are foot shooting dogs, not big running field trial dogs. My last two dogs were taken to SD when pretty young, the last one was 9 months at the first hunt. He performed very well and I had a smile on my face all of that week.

Give me a small patch of cover to work over the big plots every day. when I go out there and am on my own, that's what I look for. A good dog, pointer or flusher, will work those small patches and be very productive.

One time in SD we had a 1-2 acre patch across the driveway from the farmhouse. We put on guy on the end to block and set in with my setter. She goes on point and as I'm walking in I see a roosters head poking up through the grass. I tell the guys to get ready and walk in. on the flush I nailed him with a clean shot. The dog stays staunch on point, so I walk a bit more and another rooster flushes and is dropped by one of the guys. She still stays staunch on point and another few feet of walking flushes a third bird that the blocker knocks down. We put more out of there, too. That was fun stuff and good work by the dog.
 
my apoligies- will try to soften up and let this post go

Jetjockey- I started my 2 in wild pheasant at 4 months old- each hunted with an adult- only last year did I start hunting them together

no- I don't consider quickly pointing and shooting 4 any fun- if I get 2 with the first pair I put them up and get the second pair

I hunt 2 together, sometimes 3, sometime 4- ranging out and staying within 1/4 has been my goal- can't see AKC or AF trials doing much more than making them furthur out- do realize that champions have a huge place in breeding- my hats off to field trialers who have FC's
 
And I appologize for turning this into a pissing contest as well. But, it got my panties in a bunch when I was asked if my dog could back at 20-200 yards. Especially when I know exactly what she is made of..

Shadow.. There is a lot more to AKC field trials then just range. Running your dogs in trials won't extend their natural range. If your dogs run 200-500 yards they would most likely be considered Horse Back Gun Dogs in the AKC world. And you could run them in trials with dogs that have the same basic range. I won't get into the differences between AKC Gun Dogs and All Age dogs vs American Field Gun Dogs, Shooting Dogs, and All Age dogs. But in either venue, you could easily run your dogs against similiar ranging competition. You really should try it, but I warn you, it can be addicting, and humbling at the same time. And I will also tell you, not all Field Champions are created equal. I won't get into that either because of the politics that can be involved. But trust me when I say there can be a HUGE difference between a dog that won its FC competing in small weekend trials without any pros competing, vs a dog who wins its FC while sitting on a Pro's string competing in weekend trials and championships.. It takes a lot more dog to be able to run in a 1 hour championship trial and get a ribbon! There are FC's out there that couldn't handle a wild bird if it was dead. :cheers:
 
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Jetjocky,

One thing that I have learned over the years is a dogs range can be extended. First the dog must have a competitive spirit. Take a dog that has been hunted alone most of it’s life, it is used to getting to all the game. Let’s say this same dog is a 60-75 yard dog. Take that dog and hunt it with a pack of 4-6 dogs for 2-3 weeks, and if it has strong desire to get to the first point, eventually it will soon learn to be a 150-200 yard dog. Again, the desire to get to the game first is the key, but will increase a dogs range.
 
OKIEGunner said:
Jetjocky,

One thing that I have learned over the years is a dogs range can be extended. First the dog must have a competitive spirit. Take a dog that has been hunted alone most of it’s life, it is used to getting to all the game. Let’s say this same dog is a 60-75 yard dog. Take that dog and hunt it with a pack of 4-6 dogs for 2-3 weeks, and if it has strong desire to get to the first point, eventually it will soon learn to be a 150-200 yard dog. Again, the desire to get to the game first is the key, but will increase a dogs range.
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I agree, but only to an extent. Your not going to turn a 200-300 yard Gun Dog into a 700+ yard All Age dog.
 
Whole hardily Agree
 
I understand jetjockey

doubt mine would do very good in those trials- decided long ago I want mine coming in close to check in- a lot- some call it yo yoing-
 
Well since this thread is so far off topic and into the weeds, I thought I would pose an opinion. In disclosure I am a long time pointer/setter owner who hunted over and campaigned several pointers over the years, both FDSB open all-age and open shooting dog. I have Brittanies now, of the black and white or tri-color French variety. They could not win as trained currently in horseback competition and I do not trial. Why do all continental dog clubs want to take a dog bred and designed for foot hunting and trialing, and make it a horseback handling dog? If the attempt is to challenge pointers and setters, you can quit now. The big time open pointers and setters are masters of the game. I'm sorry but no Britt, Weim, Vizala,or Shorthair could prevail in a prairie or southern stake against the Pointers and Setters, the setters can barely compete as it is. It's like taking a knife to a gunfight, might be a really nice knife, but your still going to get shot! Sometimes in eastern cover trials there is a possibility to be competetive. So why make a dog something it's not. Don't we have enough pointers and setter all age dogs and horseback dogs now? This is why we now have the electric correction collar and the tracking collar, because we have head strong, hard, run off dogs who need a firm hand. Dogs which were bred without concern for biddability and handle. Kennel dogs bred with a sole criterion of run. Dogs which are single purpose, not household companions. A completely different agenda than their original purpose or breeding. My Britts took some time to break without a collar, run plenty big depending on conditions. They live everyday in the house and loose in the unfenced yard, it took a lot of patience to get to the point they can be trusted not to chase sheep, get skunked, bugger cats, confront the neighbors. I don't need a special vest to hold my electronic gizmo's, correction collars, tracking collars, annoying beepers, and thundering whistles. Just a handfull of shells and a simple voice prompt if I change directions. If I call and don't see a dog appear at a distance and turn, I can assume they are on point and I need to find them. I like a dog to move and cover ground, I walk a lot and I am less thorough in my search, than many, if I hang around the same real estate for long, I get bored, so my dogs learn to hunt it up and keep truckin'. I shudder when I read posts of guy's who can hunt all day on 160@, not because they aren't effective, I'm sure they bag more birds than I do! I just could'nt stand to potter around and track down every last bird in a field. My opinion is we do the continental dogs a disservice by pushing them to be what they inherently are not, or altering 200 years of breeding with outcrosses to get more run, ( I realize that this doesn't happen because of DNA now, but back in the 1960's and 70's it was rampant). Thereby making selection of a hunting companion more difficult for the ordinary hunter, who gets one of these firebreathers and wonders what he's going to do with it. Ranks of continental horseback pro pointing dog trainers, who trial on the circuit, are by and large minor league wannabe's unable to effectively compete on the FDSB pointer/setter circuit, where the money and tradition is, so they set up their own. So now I lit the fuse, let the fullsaide begin.
 
Oldandnew: I'm with you 100%. Lewellynn wanted a dog that ran bigger than Laverack's, took some of his dogs and breed his own line, a dog with more run in him. I prefer the foot shooting, Laverack type setter. My preference. As a late teenager, we had to put our old setter down and dad came home with an orange belton setter raised from "field trial" stock. She looked like a traditional setter, but the first time I took the dog out she was out a quarter mile before I could snap my fingers. That dog was not a fit with our family or style of hunting. A former boss had two Vislas from field trial stock and he trialed them. I hunted with him a few times and it was very frustrating to have those wild-a$$ed dogs chasing up all the birds out hundreds of yards ahead of us. Neither would hold a point. The one dog won 3rd place once running birdless. What a joke. Now I've also seen some "real" field trial dogs that were trained and could handle the duty, but would never want to own one or hunt with one. Field trials have their place, but it's not my cup of tea.

I'm a meat hunter who enjoys good dog work. I prefer the foot shooting dog that works 30-50 yards out, quarters and checks back on me, as I've got no desire to have to hump that hard to find a dog on point, or to chase after trying to keep up a big running dog. I like to walk, too and in a good day we're going to wear enough boot leather without having to beat ourselves up doing it.
 
Ranger Rick said:
. Neither would hold a point. The one dog won 3rd place once running birdless. What a joke..
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Trying really, really hard not to turn this into a peeing contest again, but, I call BS on that one unless the dog was running in puppy stakes. It clearly states in the rule book that any dog of derby age or better, MUST have bird work in order to place! If a dog took 3rd and didn't have bird work, something was amuck! I also find it interesting that you say the dogs wouldn't hold a point. That leads me to believe they weren't real field Trial dogs. Heck, last year my dog was found standing. The trainer flushed and one of the quail nearly hit her in the head as it flew past her. She turned to mark and took one step. ONE STEP that was less then 6 inches.. GAME OVER.. The trainer picked her up! If a dog doesn't back, stop to flush, or isnt completely steady throughout the flush and shot, then they get picked up. A dog that doesn't hold a point isn't a broke dog, and the handler shouldn't waste the judges time even entering a dog like that. The first thing I asked the trainer before I dropped her off was "can you foot hunt over your trial dogs"? His response was that he could foot hunt over every sinlge one of his trials dogs, even the big running All Age dogs. A dog that is properly trained knows the difference between being handled off a horse, and handled off foot. They also adjust to the terrain accordingly! A properly trained field trail dog (at least a FT dog who is run off foot, and run off horseback) will make a very nice foot hunting dog 90% of the time.
 
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Jetjockey: No offense taken. It could have been his dog was running in puppy. I don't know. I don't trial, have never been to one and my limited knowledge of them is from word of mouth. My former boss was full of BS. Heck! I called BS on him years ago!!! Our relationship became very difficult over the dog issue after I had my old dog put down and went back to another setter like I had before. He thought I should have gotten a field trial Visla. Talk about a pissing contest... it was like that in the office every day. It got to be where if I was going on the road for a day and found out he was going to be gone, I would reschedule my trip so that I could enjoy the day in the office without him around, then travel on days he was in the office.

As I said, both of his dogs busted birds with regularity and were often picked up during trials for it. He was often frustrated coming back from trials and like you said, he was wasting the time of the judges and everyone else entering those dogs. A lot of people have differing ideas, but he had some strange ones. Believed that any training that restrained his wild mutts would "take the run out of them". S**t. Those dogs ran like raped apes and that was breed into them.

He had an elderly friend with a female Visla he asked me to pair up with on an outing he organized. He turned his nose up at that dog and didn't want to hunt with it. She turned out to be a fine bird dog and I enjoyed hunting with the old guy and his dog. I watched a good dog work and we put a lot more birds in the bag than did the group with the boss and his big running dogs.
 
As a hunter first I feel that all this talk about range is a bit overblown. For a hunter range is somewhat a secondary concern. First a pointing dog must find and hold the bird till you get there. If not you basically have a flusher.

If you have a pointing dog that can handle its birds, more range now becomes something that can be a benefit in finding more birds. But this is somewhat dependent on the bird and cover you are hunting.

There seem to be a perception that trial dogs are out of control and can't make good hunting dogs. Some of the best hunting dogs I have see were trial dog. They were well trained and had a ton of desire to hunt.

I don't think there are many people that hunt in areas were a 300+ yard dog is much of an advantage. Many of the places we hunt are not that big and open. But if you are going to have a pointing dog to hunt with why wouldn't you use the dog as it is designed, which is go find birds at distances well beyond gun range.
 
SetterNut said:
As a hunter first I feel that all this talk about range is a bit overblown. For a hunter range is somewhat a secondary concern. First a pointing dog must find and hold the bird till you get there. If not you basically have a flusher.

If you have a pointing dog that can handle its birds, more range now becomes something that can be a benefit in finding more birds. But this is somewhat dependent on the bird and cover you are hunting.

There seem to be a perception that trial dogs are out of control and can't make good hunting dogs. Some of the best hunting dogs I have see were trial dog. They were well trained and had a ton of desire to hunt.

I don't think there are many people that hunt in areas were a 300+ yard dog is much of an advantage. Many of the places we hunt are not that big and open. But if you are going to have a pointing dog to hunt with why wouldn't you use the dog as it is designed, which is go find birds at distances well beyond gun range.
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i have several trial dogs and they only range as far as i let them. it boils down boys to a well trained dog and more to a well trained handler. if you have little control of your animal your going to fail. simple as that...:thumbsup:
 
Setternut: I agree, the most important thing is that a pointing dog hold birds. But also for me, range is important as I do a lot of grouse and woodcock hunting in very thick cover. One dog I had would range out to 100 yards in certain situations and in the tag alder/aspen edges, getting to her on point was a workout. Besides being a great grouse dog, she did fantastic work in our SD trips on pheasants. My last one was the equally good on all species I hunt, but worked closer.

I've had some really good dogs. Staunch, hard working dogs. But wouldn't ever claim any of them could have performed to the levels of training needed for trials. That's another step upward in training I've not the experience, or time to accomplish. My hat's off to anyone who's done the job needed to get their dogs to that level.
 
RangerRick- you stated your dogs hunt and point within 60 yards-
hunt like windshield wipers
you would go hunting with someone who had a dog that was always finding more birds, pointing, and holding them- say at + 100 yards

tell me honoestly- you would go hunting with someone who had a good pointing dog but wasn't a bootpolisher
 
Shadow: I'm not really getting what you mean, but are you asking if I would hunt with someone who had a dog that was a boot polisher? I have and would under the right circumstances. In those cases it didn't matter because my dog was mopping them up and I had a good hunt. But in one such case, I chose not to go back again when invited because the group was inexperienced, did not have a clue how to hunt wild pheasants and it didn't appear they were going to learn, either. Two dogs in that group followed on the heels of their masters, the third spent the entire day yelling until he was horse, for his dog to "come", which didn't have any impact on the dog's running well out of range busting birds. Hunting with a well trained, well mannered dog is a pleasure. Hunting with an out-of-control dog that hasn't been trained even the basic obedience commands is not. Is that what you're asking?

With the exception of the one setter my dad brought home before I went off to college, all of our dogs have been foot shooting setters that ranged 30-50 yards, or so. I train mine now to quarter to the whistle and teach hand signals for direction. There are times I want to direct the dog into a particular patch of cover. Or like when my kids were little, we did a lot of walking trails, with the dog hunting either side. Direct the dog from one side to the other, dog on point, have the wife, kids, grandparents, wait while I went into flush and shoot. I shot a lot of birds like that with that dog. I still got to hunt and spend time with the family outdoors, too.

When I was talking about my ex-boss who had "field trial" Vislas, he felt the Visla owned by the old guy was a boot polisher. That dog worked witihin 50 yards, was staunch and retrieved to hand. A pleasure to hunt with and in my opinion a productive bird dog, no boot polisher. To my boss, a 50 yard dog that worked cover, like a windshield wiper, was a boot polisher. He looked down his nose at any dog he didn't consider to have enough "run" in him. So I guess the term can be defined differently depending on your perspective.
 
:cheers: to a good thread gone bad, you guys crack me up. I had fun reading it while it lasted.
 
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