Best way for pointing dog to handle phez
- Thread starter SetterNut
- Start date
1pheas4
Moderator
Aren't you guys getting tired yet?
I have to say through all the back and forth I've learned quit a bit about the pointer world. It's been interesting.....thanks
Maybe the best summary is a pointing dog should range far enough to find birds,but not miss any, hold the skittish devil till we hump our sorry out of shape butts over to the dog and flush, affording us an easy straight away shots we rarely if ever miss! Now that we have solved that issue we can focus on the other half of the equation, finding dead birds and retrieving, and ideal dog virtues in this regard.
SetterNut
New member
OK, after 124 posts I guess we can call that horse beat to death
But it was and interesting thread to this point.Hunting dead and retrieving, that could be a good topic to go after. But on a pheasant board I bet we get more discussion on steady to wing, shot vs breaking on the flush
For me I want a pointing dog standing through the shot, but let him go on the fall. What about the rest of you. :cheers:
OKIEGunner
New member
SN,
I'm with you, I let the dog go on the shot of the smoke stick. Mainly because of terrain I hunt down here for Quail. So when I head North fot Ditch Parriots, I still allow them to go on the shot. I some cases , I will command the dog to flush if I'm in real thick cover, but only by command.
I'm with you, I let the dog go on the shot of the smoke stick. Mainly because of terrain I hunt down here for Quail. So when I head North fot Ditch Parriots, I still allow them to go on the shot. I some cases , I will command the dog to flush if I'm in real thick cover, but only by command.
Last edited:
Well I would agree that breaking with the shot gives the dog a better advantage in retrieving. My current group decided to break themselves to wing and shot, there by slower on the draw retrieving, it has created some drama, and regrettably a few lost birds when they were pups. They mark better now, but I have always thought that the weakest part of the pointing dogs game is it's vision. Call it sight or marking ability, in my experience, they generally don't match the abilities of the dedicated retrievers. At least without a whole lot of experience or effort. I would vote for break at shot, because I want that dog on the trail and in the vicinity of the fall as quickly as possible. We may all learn the value of that this year in particular, with the dry conditions prevailing,and scent at a premium.
SetterNut
New member
I would like to be able to have my dogs steady to fall. But that will take a lot of work and birds.
I would say that most hunters are happy if the dog lets them flush, and the dog can go as soon as a bird is in the air. That will cost you some birds at times.
I want mine at a minimum, waiting to go after the shot.
My Setter is pretty good at marking birds down, it the retrieving part that has been an issue. I generally find him standing over the birds waiting for me to pick it up
I would say that most hunters are happy if the dog lets them flush, and the dog can go as soon as a bird is in the air. That will cost you some birds at times.
I want mine at a minimum, waiting to go after the shot.
My Setter is pretty good at marking birds down, it the retrieving part that has been an issue. I generally find him standing over the birds waiting for me to pick it up
OKIEGunner
New member
Setter Nut,
I have had a few of my GSP’s trained Steady till the Fall, but when I hunt them with the whole pack of dogs (4+) if one of these dog breaks on the shot, all of them eventually will. The desire to get to the bird first is too overwhelming for my dogs.
Interesting, because one things I done the past two years during Dove Season is too make the dog hold (leased on the hind quarters) until the fall. I mainly do this so that the dog is ready for the upcoming Teal Season. Mainly just getting them ready for the blind. Retrieving birds is not normally a problem.
I have had a few of my GSP’s trained Steady till the Fall, but when I hunt them with the whole pack of dogs (4+) if one of these dog breaks on the shot, all of them eventually will. The desire to get to the bird first is too overwhelming for my dogs.
Interesting, because one things I done the past two years during Dove Season is too make the dog hold (leased on the hind quarters) until the fall. I mainly do this so that the dog is ready for the upcoming Teal Season. Mainly just getting them ready for the blind. Retrieving birds is not normally a problem.
SetterNut
New member
Hunting with other dogs creats some issues, thats for sure. Right now my dog would be off with the shot. My hunting partner has some well trained dogs and his oldest is the most reliably steady through the shot.
I just got a pup, so next season even if I were to get Ace steady to the fall, it would be tough to maintain with a 18 month old blowing past him,
But it would be awesome to shoot a bird and look over and see your dog still standing there. :thumbsup:
Shadow
Banned
you make a good point- I have one that is steady- one that is 80% steady. 2 that aren't
if- and I say if- when I hunt 2, 3, or 4- and since mine like to retrieve-
I can't see it- one is steady all must be steady- even a trained steady dog will come unglued if the other dogs get to go and grab the bird
steady is a fine thing when you have one dog and don't hunt it with somone elses dog- it's nice when you showoff yours and the other dog is as well manered-
but what is it like- when you take your steady dog hunting with someone who has a real good but isn't steady dog- you going to like the other persons dog getting every bird- how good a dog are you going to have on the 3rd day hunting with that person and dog
we get a point, a back, pointing dog stays steady thru the shot- backing dog sees the bird fly and the hit and it falls- breaks when the bird comes up- gets the bird- carries it to it's master- the other dog is still standing
you would hunt how long with such a dog who really wants a bird- regardless of which dog actually is in front and has the bird-
what I've seen in 40 years- it's all fine and dandy- dog in front is the king- it stays and never moves till told to do so- doesn't have a chance in wild birds with the also as good a dog but doesn't stay standing when the hunter comes in and flushes the bird or covey
think of it this way- polished stands till comanded to move- VS- moves when the bird flushes- guess which one I'll take when hunting- sort of- don't get pissed that you shot but my dog has the bird
if- and I say if- when I hunt 2, 3, or 4- and since mine like to retrieve-
I can't see it- one is steady all must be steady- even a trained steady dog will come unglued if the other dogs get to go and grab the bird
steady is a fine thing when you have one dog and don't hunt it with somone elses dog- it's nice when you showoff yours and the other dog is as well manered-
but what is it like- when you take your steady dog hunting with someone who has a real good but isn't steady dog- you going to like the other persons dog getting every bird- how good a dog are you going to have on the 3rd day hunting with that person and dog
we get a point, a back, pointing dog stays steady thru the shot- backing dog sees the bird fly and the hit and it falls- breaks when the bird comes up- gets the bird- carries it to it's master- the other dog is still standing
you would hunt how long with such a dog who really wants a bird- regardless of which dog actually is in front and has the bird-
what I've seen in 40 years- it's all fine and dandy- dog in front is the king- it stays and never moves till told to do so- doesn't have a chance in wild birds with the also as good a dog but doesn't stay standing when the hunter comes in and flushes the bird or covey
think of it this way- polished stands till comanded to move- VS- moves when the bird flushes- guess which one I'll take when hunting- sort of- don't get pissed that you shot but my dog has the bird
SetterNut
New member
I am surprised that not many have said that they don't want their dog steady to fall because they want their dog on the birds as fast as possible. I have heard that many times.
I am really not sure if it is better to have the dog break on its own at the flush/shot, or stand there and mark the bird.
My guess is it depends on the situation.
Two seasons ago I took Ace out west at the end of the season on his first trip to true pheasant country. Ace pointed and I had my son and his friend go in to shoot. Two birds came up, and his friend shot and missed and Ace broke after the bird he shot at. My son about the same instant shot and killed the other bird. If he hadn't killed that bird dead, it would have been a problem because Ace ran about 20 yards after the live bird, and didn't know that the other bird had been shot.
So in this case a steady to fall dog would have been better. But we have all seen pheasants come down and hit the ground running. The sooner the dog gets there the better in that case. The question is does the dog that breaks on the flush get there significantly faster than a dog that has marked the bird down?
I am really not sure if it is better to have the dog break on its own at the flush/shot, or stand there and mark the bird.
My guess is it depends on the situation.
Two seasons ago I took Ace out west at the end of the season on his first trip to true pheasant country. Ace pointed and I had my son and his friend go in to shoot. Two birds came up, and his friend shot and missed and Ace broke after the bird he shot at. My son about the same instant shot and killed the other bird. If he hadn't killed that bird dead, it would have been a problem because Ace ran about 20 yards after the live bird, and didn't know that the other bird had been shot.
So in this case a steady to fall dog would have been better. But we have all seen pheasants come down and hit the ground running. The sooner the dog gets there the better in that case. The question is does the dog that breaks on the flush get there significantly faster than a dog that has marked the bird down?
Shadow
Banned
SetterNut- you have a superb setter-
you really think having him steady to fall- when one of mine is right there and isn't- is going to make you happy-
you can have the most polished, finely trained, sure fire point, hold, steady till comanded to move- and then you have- a dog that points, holds till you flush, breaks on the bird- and wants every bird that is shot at-
we all have dogs that retrieve- mine won't fight for a retrieve- but they sure won't hold back because you hold yours back- meaning- who's dog is going to come back with the bird
4 dogs pointing and backing- the one that is steady to fall (steady to release) while the others aren't- will most likely never have a bird to bring back
you would go on a hunt with someone who didn't have steady dogs
response to your question-the dog that breaks upon the flush will always do better than one that stays and watches the bird come to ground- willing to put that to a test
you really think having him steady to fall- when one of mine is right there and isn't- is going to make you happy-
you can have the most polished, finely trained, sure fire point, hold, steady till comanded to move- and then you have- a dog that points, holds till you flush, breaks on the bird- and wants every bird that is shot at-
we all have dogs that retrieve- mine won't fight for a retrieve- but they sure won't hold back because you hold yours back- meaning- who's dog is going to come back with the bird
4 dogs pointing and backing- the one that is steady to fall (steady to release) while the others aren't- will most likely never have a bird to bring back
you would go on a hunt with someone who didn't have steady dogs
response to your question-the dog that breaks upon the flush will always do better than one that stays and watches the bird come to ground- willing to put that to a test
Last edited:
SetterNut
New member
Shadow, I don't have him steady to fall, not even close. I still have to get him completely steady to shot.
On top of that I just added a new pup, and there isn't much point in working on steady to fall when next season I will be hunting the pup with Ace. I don't have the time or money for birds to get Ace that steady and keep him there.
You got to the heart of the problem for most of us. If you are going to hunt with many other people and their dogs, steady to fall is going to be tough. I am sure that there are people that could do it, but I don't think I am one of them.
I want to get both of my dogs to where they are still standing after the shot, but if a bird is hit breaks on its own. But what I want and get may not be the same thing
On top of that I just added a new pup, and there isn't much point in working on steady to fall when next season I will be hunting the pup with Ace. I don't have the time or money for birds to get Ace that steady and keep him there.
You got to the heart of the problem for most of us. If you are going to hunt with many other people and their dogs, steady to fall is going to be tough. I am sure that there are people that could do it, but I don't think I am one of them.
I want to get both of my dogs to where they are still standing after the shot, but if a bird is hit breaks on its own. But what I want and get may not be the same thing
Shadow
Banned
Shadow, I don't have him steady to fall, not even close. I still have to get him completely steady to shot.
On top of that I just added a new pup, and there isn't much point in working on steady to fall when next season I will be hunting the pup with Ace. I don't have the time or money for birds to get Ace that steady and keep him there.
You got to the heart of the problem for most of us. If you are going to hunt with many other people and their dogs, steady to fall is going to be tough. I am sure that there are people that could do it, but I don't think I am one of them.
I want to get both of my dogs to where they are still standing after the shot, but if a bird is hit breaks on its own. But what I want and get may not be the same thing
SetterNut- you have a superb Setter and an up and coming Top Dog
steady after the shot is a hard thing for 90% of dogs- I wouldn't even think about it- the excitement- steady to the bird they held till you kicked up and it's flying from under their nose- I've seen a few dogs ruined that their owners wanted that dog to stand like a rock
I've liked mine to hold till flushed- hesitate- like looking at me for dirrection- I don't say a thing- usually shooting- I have no concern of what the dog who had the point, is doing after the bird comes up
but- that one that held the bird to flush really expects to get the bird when it hits the ground- I wouldn't take that away by making one steady till hit the ground or commanded to go fetch
Mine retrieve- they enjoy it- not really sure I could train that out of them- as in- STAY- I will release you when I decide to
just kidding- I've got a couple with wheels- it would take one kick butt steady dog to beat one of mine to a retrieve
SetterNut
New member
Thought I would bring this thread back now that the season has started back up.
I got a chance to hunt in some pheasant country earlier this week. We didn't see a lot of pheasants, but did get into a few.
This is Ace's 3rd season, and he as not been into pheasant areas very many time. Well he showed me that he is starting to handle them pretty well.
In the past he would have problem with pheasants running on him. He would at time follow foot scent, when I relocate him, and then end up bumping birds.
He did very well handling the bird he encountered Monday. We were in fairly short wheat stubble with a few thin weeds.
He pointed a couple of pheasants. He tends to stand his birds on first scent and let me come in and try to flush. That is what happened these times as well. But rather than putting nose to the ground scent when I relocated him, he would swing out down wind. He did this several time on each bird, but would swing out again and go farther out, until didn't hit foot scent. Once he was in front of the bird he work back at me staying down wind, and pointed on body scent.
May not be the only way for a pointing dog to work running pheasants, but it looks like it is the method that he has figured out that works for him.
Was really please to see he has learned from his mistakes. He may make a good pheasant dog after all.
I got a chance to hunt in some pheasant country earlier this week. We didn't see a lot of pheasants, but did get into a few.
This is Ace's 3rd season, and he as not been into pheasant areas very many time. Well he showed me that he is starting to handle them pretty well.
In the past he would have problem with pheasants running on him. He would at time follow foot scent, when I relocate him, and then end up bumping birds.
He did very well handling the bird he encountered Monday. We were in fairly short wheat stubble with a few thin weeds.
He pointed a couple of pheasants. He tends to stand his birds on first scent and let me come in and try to flush. That is what happened these times as well. But rather than putting nose to the ground scent when I relocated him, he would swing out down wind. He did this several time on each bird, but would swing out again and go farther out, until didn't hit foot scent. Once he was in front of the bird he work back at me staying down wind, and pointed on body scent.
May not be the only way for a pointing dog to work running pheasants, but it looks like it is the method that he has figured out that works for him.
Was really please to see he has learned from his mistakes. He may make a good pheasant dog after all.
OKIEGunner
New member
SetterNut,
I’ve always been a believer in trusting the dog. Each dog will do unique techniques in finding their birds. Head up or head down are good indicators in how the dog scents his game. I have had a few head up dogs after several years learn on their own to put nose to ground on the running birds. I personally like a mixture of both types of dogs in the field at the same time.
I’ve always been a believer in trusting the dog. Each dog will do unique techniques in finding their birds. Head up or head down are good indicators in how the dog scents his game. I have had a few head up dogs after several years learn on their own to put nose to ground on the running birds. I personally like a mixture of both types of dogs in the field at the same time.
Ranger Rick
Member
Setternut: I prefer the dog that is intelligent enough to figure out how to handle the running bird on his own. I had one dog that was whoa broke and was so steady you could set off a nuclear bomb and as long as she had body scent in her nose, she would hold steady. If a bird was running she would also hold steady and I would have to release her by a tap on the head and a verbal OK. That was a real pain in the thick grouse/woodcock cover in which I do most of my hunting.
My last pup I did not train that way. I whoa trained him, not whoa broke. And I let him figure it out on his own, except that in training, if he creeped I brought him back, set him up and told him whoa. He figured it out pretty quick [8-10 planted birds] that he needed to hold until I flushed the bird.
In his second season, under 2 years old, on a trip to SD he had one performance that really got me excited. He points and as I'm walking up I can see he's flagging it. The bird had run off. As I approach, he breaks and begins working for scent, points, relocates again, and again. I can see an old wheel rut in the grass and it's obvious to me that the bird is running up that rut. The dog breaks way out to the side and makes a big sweep around, coming back toward me about 30 yards out and locks up tight. I walk in and out goes a big rooster. The dog got around him and pinned him between he and I. Man! I was proud.
I've never had a dog steady to wing and shot. Mine have always broken on the flush, or stood until the bird is falling.
That old whoa broke dog was so staunch we used my cousins retriever to flush the birds for us. She was 8-9 years old at the time and it didn't bother her a bit. I would never do that with a young dog, though.
My last pup I did not train that way. I whoa trained him, not whoa broke. And I let him figure it out on his own, except that in training, if he creeped I brought him back, set him up and told him whoa. He figured it out pretty quick [8-10 planted birds] that he needed to hold until I flushed the bird.
In his second season, under 2 years old, on a trip to SD he had one performance that really got me excited. He points and as I'm walking up I can see he's flagging it. The bird had run off. As I approach, he breaks and begins working for scent, points, relocates again, and again. I can see an old wheel rut in the grass and it's obvious to me that the bird is running up that rut. The dog breaks way out to the side and makes a big sweep around, coming back toward me about 30 yards out and locks up tight. I walk in and out goes a big rooster. The dog got around him and pinned him between he and I. Man! I was proud.
I've never had a dog steady to wing and shot. Mine have always broken on the flush, or stood until the bird is falling.
That old whoa broke dog was so staunch we used my cousins retriever to flush the birds for us. She was 8-9 years old at the time and it didn't bother her a bit. I would never do that with a young dog, though.
Uncle Buck
New member
the puds are generally close pointers. Mazzie is generally right on top of them. It also depends on the cover and as some have pointed out, the number of birds around. The closer birds freeze up a lot better. Having said that, with sharptails the dogs tend to point much further away in short grass and a flock of birds. They are getting a much wider scent cone and know there is more than just one bird in the picture.
Once a pup gets sonme experience sorting out hot and cold scent, conditions etc. they seem to point pheasants closer all the time. Learn to read your dog and you will have a good idea of whats going on re a bird that runs ,holds,runs holds--I push the dog a little harder in hopes we catch up with that runner.
Having a pointer flush a bird is a bunch of crap-- end of argument. Want a flusher buy a flusher.
Once a pup gets sonme experience sorting out hot and cold scent, conditions etc. they seem to point pheasants closer all the time. Learn to read your dog and you will have a good idea of whats going on re a bird that runs ,holds,runs holds--I push the dog a little harder in hopes we catch up with that runner.
Having a pointer flush a bird is a bunch of crap-- end of argument. Want a flusher buy a flusher.
SetterNut
New member
The big change I saw in him this time as compared to his first few times on pheasants, is that when I released him Monday, he did not stop and point when he didn't have body scent. He has learned to keep moving until he has the bird locked down. In the past he would point and I would have to release him several times before we finally got the bird pinned, or it escaped.
If you keep putting a fairly intelligent bird dog in birds, they learn the method that works best for them.
If you keep putting a fairly intelligent bird dog in birds, they learn the method that works best for them.