Shadow
Banned
what I meant was watching a good NSTRA dog in a trial, in wild birds-
Best way for pointing dog to handle phez
- Thread starter SetterNut
- Start date
what I meant was watching a good NSTRA dog in a trial, in wild birds-
Ranger Rick
Member
A good pointing dog will lock up tight on BODY scent. A dog that grounds trails is creeping, pottering and is going to walk up too many birds. I've trained the last two dogs each way. One was trained to stay on point for body scent and not move until released. The last one was allowed to figure it out for himself, back to the way we raised our dogs when I was groing up. The instinct is there, help them bring it out by being diligent in your training and keeping them honest by not rewarding busted birds. I taught both that if busted or bumped they made a mistake. Both were good, staunch dogs on point when theiy had body scent in their nose and were very succesful teaming up with me. We made excellent teams. Although the dog that needed releasing was a bird machine, the likes of which I may never see again, I did end up prefering the dog who figured it out through experience as it could be a real pain to get to the other dog to release her in some of the thick cover we hunt around here. Both were great dogs. The method in question a personal preference.
I've hunted with a lot of guys over the years, with a lot of different dogs and would have put either up against anyone's as far as us being succesful in bagging birds. My preference is for pointing dogs, a matter of personal taste. But I've hunted with a lot of really good flushers, too. The setter is what I was raised with and is what I'll stay with.
It's August and Max, the newest member of the family is 19 weeks old today. He's going to be pretty young come the opener here in Wisconsin, but rest assured he and I will be spending a lot of time in the woods this fall. It's a little early for him, but I see signs that lead me to believe that if put on live birds now, he would point. I think this one's going to be a dang good dog.
Setternut - you're picture has me thinking of getting this summer over and gettin on to fall!
I've hunted with a lot of guys over the years, with a lot of different dogs and would have put either up against anyone's as far as us being succesful in bagging birds. My preference is for pointing dogs, a matter of personal taste. But I've hunted with a lot of really good flushers, too. The setter is what I was raised with and is what I'll stay with.
It's August and Max, the newest member of the family is 19 weeks old today. He's going to be pretty young come the opener here in Wisconsin, but rest assured he and I will be spending a lot of time in the woods this fall. It's a little early for him, but I see signs that lead me to believe that if put on live birds now, he would point. I think this one's going to be a dang good dog.
Setternut - you're picture has me thinking of getting this summer over and gettin on to fall!
Its interesting that you say that. My trainer does nearly the exact same thing. He heads out to the Dakota's every year to train for trial season. The young dogs see a TON of birds their first summer. They learn how to track and pin wild running birds. They also learn not to get to close and bump birds. What you get is a dog that knows how to handle wild birds very well.
I don't care what anyone says, dogs are going to bump birds on occasion. But I watched my pup trail a wild running rooster for several hundred yards last December at one of the Uguide farms. I honestly thought she had lost her mind since she was tracking across a pasture with very, very little cover. I was sure there was no bird there. Next thing you know she locked up tight about 15 yards from a small patch of cover. She pinned it nicely and never bumped the bird. Turns out one of my buddy's saw the entire thing and could see the rooster about 50 yards in front of her trying to creep out. The rooster "thought" he had lost her and found a place to hide... Wrong, dead bird! The funny thing is, according to the trainer, it takes a week or two at the beginning of camp every summer for the dogs to really get back into the swing of pinning wild birds. He says that no matter how good the dog is, they are all going to go "bowling for birds" the first week. IT takes a LOT of wild birds for a pointing dog to be able to handle wild pheasants.
Shadow
Banned
that's interesting- I do not allow my Britt's to track- I will pull them off a track every time I see it- I'll go head to head with your tracker- mine are out there 200-500 yards and freeze a pheasant- yours will back at 20- 200' right
For what it's worth I have owned and hunted over the old original import german shorthairs which were close, very deliberate, and thorough. Compared to the pointers and setters I hunted with at the time, they resorted to using a tremendous amount of foot scent and trailing on pheasants. It was effective, and in some conditions more effective than other styles. Conversely, I have seen pointers, brittanies, and setters that rely on speed and surprise to "freeze", pheasants to great advantage, and have had a couple with lots of experience that learned to point a running rooster, relocate by running around the rooster and pinning them between you and the dog. Very effective at putting birds in the bag. My current french Britts pretty well broke themselves, and err on the side of the more conventional behavior, Using body scent, head high, point and hold at first hot scent, usually at a distance, will not move till tapped on the head, (wish they would release on verbal command), relocate as needed. Pointing dogs are going to mishandle a pheasant here and there, it's the bird not the dog. No bird plays as fast and loose with the "rules" as a cagey rooster. I owned and hunted with a lab for a while, I have been certain since that if your sole criterion is birds bagged, a well trained lab or springer, will put more pheasants in the bag day in day out. Problem is I'm a pointing dog guy, because I want the breathtaking, heart pounding moment when the dog slams on point, and there are still quail, huns, sharptails, prairie chickens, ruffed grouse,woodcock, and chuckars! Moral of the story is there are a number of ways to mr. pheasant in the pot. It comes down to preference
Feel free to go head to head, but you will lose. Would you like a list of trials she will be running in this fall to prove me wrong? But just so you know, she qualified for nationals at 20 months old (twice), was a Field Champion before she turned 2 1/2 years old, and she's in the top 25 in the country in GD points (all trials before she turned 3, she hasn't even matured). Shes probably seen more wild pheasants by 3 years old then most will see in a lifetime, plus, she will hit 500+ yards all day long in pheasant country with the occasionaly 800+ yard cast, so your dog won't be infront! At 2 1/2 years old she was beating some of the best Brittany's in the country, and I have the ribbons to prove it! I don't have to get into a pissing contest with you on who's dog is better. Personally, I don't care. But if youd like to put your money where your mouth is, enter your dog in some championship horse back trials and beat her. Not weekend trials, Im talking 1 hr ABC or AKC championship trials where the dogs are running againt multiple Pro's... Where are you located? I'll send you a list! We will see how good your dogs really are, because I know what mines capable of.
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wesslpointer
New member
When your Brit "tracks" does she have nose to grown? When shes running at 800yds out does she run head up or down? What type of horse do you ride and what state do you trial in ?
A couple of things
Hey all... I was hunting with a friend of mine in ND and my Viz took off out of a strip of tall grass we were in and ran out about 20 yards in a cut hay field no taller than 6 inches and pointed. I told my friend to go over and get the bird. He didn't believe but went anyway. He got the pheasant. I was surprised to see that a pheasant could hide in such short grass.Another time I had one of my Viz track a bird then cut to the right into a ditch run ahead about 50 yrds cut back in and came back towards the bird and lock up. I got the bird but could not believe what she done. Never again has she done it.
( just me saying to all) If a dog hunts the way you want it to and for me it's point, hold, retrieve to hand, is a great dog. If you do trials and other stuff then I guess you need better but for me my dogs are the greatest because they are mine! Enjoy the summer and get ready in a few months the fun begins!:cheers:
Lazlo
I'm here to learn and have fun!
Hey all... I was hunting with a friend of mine in ND and my Viz took off out of a strip of tall grass we were in and ran out about 20 yards in a cut hay field no taller than 6 inches and pointed. I told my friend to go over and get the bird. He didn't believe but went anyway. He got the pheasant. I was surprised to see that a pheasant could hide in such short grass.Another time I had one of my Viz track a bird then cut to the right into a ditch run ahead about 50 yrds cut back in and came back towards the bird and lock up. I got the bird but could not believe what she done. Never again has she done it.
( just me saying to all) If a dog hunts the way you want it to and for me it's point, hold, retrieve to hand, is a great dog. If you do trials and other stuff then I guess you need better but for me my dogs are the greatest because they are mine! Enjoy the summer and get ready in a few months the fun begins!:cheers:
Lazlo
I'm here to learn and have fun!
When shes running her head is up and going hard. Shes not a true 800 yard dog by any means, but in the prairies, she runs a true Shooting Dog brace. She will be anywhere from 200-600+ consistently with the occasional bigger cast. You can tell when she gets on scent because she slows down, sometimes to a creep (just like any other dog). When shes tracking, sometimes her head is up, and sometimes its down. If the scent is on the ground, her head is down, when the scent is being carried, her head is up. It totally depends on the conditions. She really isn't any different then any other dog. If she gets a huge wiff of bird, shes going to lock up, but not before she checks it. BUT, if she gets a slight wiff of bird, shes going to slow down and track. Ive killed way too many birds over her when shes tracked an pinned birds to pull her off.
As far as trials go, she has run in NY, VA, NC, GA, AL, TX, OK, MO, TN, PA,
IA, and OH. Ive hunted her in SD, PA, VA, and GA. She runs in AKC/AF Gun dog trials and the occasional All Age trial. Id guess the largest majority of trialers use Tennesee Walkers for their horses.
Shadow
Banned
you ever get out here arround Liberal, Kansas- let me know- I've got one or three I'll put on the ground with your champion on wild pheasants here- 2 just turned 2 years old
Remember Shadow, your the one who started this.. But, your missing the point, you seem to think you have the only brits to ever run on wild pheasants. My dog runs on wild pheasants every single summer and fall at summer camp in SD with a Pro trainer. Plus, I hunt her on late season pheasants in SD. Shes seen a heck of a lot more wild pheasants then your 2 year olds have. I guarantee it! She's in SD as I type this training on wild pheasants, sharptail, and chickens. Shes been on the ground every third or fourth day for the last three weeks pinning and pointing wild pheasant! She has not only proven herself with wild pheasants, but also on the field trial circuit against some of the best field trial brittany's in the country! Yet your going to tell me your 2 year old brits with MAYBE 1 full season under their belts are going to compete? If thats the case, you better send them off to run the trial circuit, because they are going to make you a lot of money winning 1 hr championship trials! Im not stupid enough to tell you that my dog is going to beat "Chug" tomorrow in an AA trial. You shouldn't think that your 2 year old dogs are going to beat a 3 year old, who has been with a pro trainer for the last 2 years, and performed well above what anyone ever hoped for. I know my dogs limitations. Running against a 2 year old, in wild pheasant country, with a heck of a lot less experience on wild pheasants, ain't one of them. But like I said, prove me wrong and enter your dogs in one of the big Brittany GD or AA championships. Your in Kansas, shouldn't be too far a drive for ya!. Illl give you a list of trials! ............... I put my money where my mouth is every time I write a check for a premium! And trust me, you probably don't want to know how expensive that can get!
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Shadow
Banned
sorry- you misunderstand- I don't have the money to field trial
I'm glad you have a FC- that's impressive-
I have always been willing to put one of mine in a field with such a polished dog as a FC- I hunted one- BIG HANDFULL in pheasants
I have a couple pheasant dogs- I have a male- if you'd care to make a little wager I'd ask Vjohn to walk with us- to see if my lowly Britt was even in the class of your FC- but- should my lowly Britt handle better without a shock collar, find and lock a pheasant, and perhaps more often in a day than your FC, you would pay respect to my nothing Britt with a bit of a reward-
we can both pitch in and pay for a motel room for Vjohn
I'm glad you have a FC- that's impressive-
I have always been willing to put one of mine in a field with such a polished dog as a FC- I hunted one- BIG HANDFULL in pheasants
I have a couple pheasant dogs- I have a male- if you'd care to make a little wager I'd ask Vjohn to walk with us- to see if my lowly Britt was even in the class of your FC- but- should my lowly Britt handle better without a shock collar, find and lock a pheasant, and perhaps more often in a day than your FC, you would pay respect to my nothing Britt with a bit of a reward-
we can both pitch in and pay for a motel room for Vjohn
Jetjockey, horses for courses, I wouldn't want to bet against a dog on his home grounds with at least a year of experience. I had open all-age and shooting dog pointers, did the Dakota and Canada thing for years, you need to realize that your running on young, green birds, not hard hunted mature birds. A lot of winning in horseback trials is determined by race, with little or no bird work. As a final point I agree wholeheartedly that the monthly checks you write are painful, I also know that the cash awards are mostly earned and paid to the trainer, so if you are planning on making a lot of money you are twice fooled. You will never even get close to break even financially. You basically get to write checks, and collect trophies. I'm sure you and Shadow have a great more in common than differences. You both like big running britts for instance. I think the rest of us are more interested in your opinions of the effectiveness of that style, on hunted pheasants, not conditions where wild birds are largely unmolested except for a 1 week trial, or worse yet planted pennies. Whether a particular individual dog is superior to another is immaterial, and a conversation in a PM between you and Shadow.
Shadow
Banned
oldandnew-
I don't think one of my Britt's is better than his FC- it's sort of like- I have big corn, wheat, and milo fields, there aren't a whole lot of pheasants- mine- although I'm working on that- think that a 1/2 mile field is meant to be run, find, and point- and we don't have quail- so all they've pointed has been pheasants- now to say they aren't good- well- won't know that till I put one down with the best dog going- sounds like he has the best dog in the country on pheasants- we should enjoy a nice morning
if mine even comes close to matching his we'd all think it would be some awesome dog work, with pictures and a report, perhaps instead of money on who's is best, we might see if a lowly farm Britt can come close to a real polished FC dog
I don't think one of my Britt's is better than his FC- it's sort of like- I have big corn, wheat, and milo fields, there aren't a whole lot of pheasants- mine- although I'm working on that- think that a 1/2 mile field is meant to be run, find, and point- and we don't have quail- so all they've pointed has been pheasants- now to say they aren't good- well- won't know that till I put one down with the best dog going- sounds like he has the best dog in the country on pheasants- we should enjoy a nice morning
if mine even comes close to matching his we'd all think it would be some awesome dog work, with pictures and a report, perhaps instead of money on who's is best, we might see if a lowly farm Britt can come close to a real polished FC dog
wesslpointer
New member
Change!
The brittany was once a small hunt close "spaniel" type of dog. Boy have things changed. Back in the 70ths a local Brit trainer/breeder crossed so many big running setters and pointers with his Brits that the local club kicked him out. He also came back early once after driving 2,000 miles to Canada because they would not let him run his dogs. They told him "we hunt on foot with are Brits" But all was for given when he won the National a number of times/ I GUESS. Then just last month a French Brittany breeder braged to me that his little dogs hunted at 600 yards. I guess it never ends.
The brittany was once a small hunt close "spaniel" type of dog. Boy have things changed. Back in the 70ths a local Brit trainer/breeder crossed so many big running setters and pointers with his Brits that the local club kicked him out. He also came back early once after driving 2,000 miles to Canada because they would not let him run his dogs. They told him "we hunt on foot with are Brits" But all was for given when he won the National a number of times/ I GUESS. Then just last month a French Brittany breeder braged to me that his little dogs hunted at 600 yards. I guess it never ends.
Shadow. Let me refresh your memory with your post above! Your the one who challenged me by asking if my dog would back yours. Not the other way around! You simply screwed with the wrong guy, with the wrong Brit! I don't give a rats azz how good you think your dogs are, or how big you think they run. On one hand you brag about your Brits coming from FT lines, on the other hand you brag how your brits can beat FT brits. So which is it, are they Field Trial brits or not? Do you have the best working pheasant brits in the country, or not? (I know I don't). Sounds like your brits aren't even broke, so entering them in a trial would be pointless. Telling me my dog is going to be backing yours from 200 yards is laughable at best, especially when you have no idea how big my dog runs (which sounds to me like she runs bigger then yours.. And yes, I have a Garmin to prove it), or what my dog has accomplished!
I simply gave a situation where my dog tracked a late season December wild rooster in SD and pinned it down after almost 200 yards. You told me that was B.S. and your brits were much better then that because you don't let them track a running rooster. So be it. You don't let your dog track birds, and I do. My dog has proven both on the FT Circuit, and when hunting late season SD roosters that she is perfectly capable of tracking, and pinning late season birds. Sorry your on a soap box and think you have the biggest running best brits in the country.. If you do, Im proud for you. But you better put them down against the best brits in the country to prove it, because I have!.. And Im sorry, but 200-500 yards dogs aint going to do it!
Now, would you like to get back to the previous topic, or will I see you at one of the ABC GD championships this fall?
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The brittany was once a small hunt close "spaniel" type of dog. Boy have things changed. Back in the 70ths a local Brit trainer/breeder crossed so many big running setters and pointers with his Brits that the local club kicked him out. He also came back early once after driving 2,000 miles to Canada because they would not let him run his dogs. They told him "we hunt on foot with are Brits" But all was for given when he won the National a number of times/ I GUESS. Then just last month a French Brittany breeder braged to me that his little dogs hunted at 600 yards. I guess it never ends.
The nice thing now days is DNA! Just because a Brit is a true All Age dog doesn't mean its been bread with an ES or EP.. At least not any more then the original breed which was created by crossing an ES. DNA makes it much, much harder to cheat... BTW.. Cheating has occured at every level of Field Trials. But that is a completely different subject that we could hash out for years!
Oldandnew. I agree with you 100% about trials and birds. Young birds are a piece of cake for pointers. Its the late season wild birds that give them fits. But remember, even when running dogs in the summers, there are a lot of those hold over older birds still out there, and they haven't forgot what its like to be shot at. IMO the perfect early season pheasant dog is any of the big running pointing breeds, and I prefer a dog who knows how to track and pin birds. I don't want a dog who ignores scent, and won't track even though they know a bird is not far away. It takes a lot of bumped birds for the dog to get to that point, but Ive seen first hand what a big running AA dog can do in the prairies when it comes to finding and pointing pheasants. Ill be in SD in 3 weeks to run my dog at the trainers off horse in the prairies, and then were going to spend a few days hunting sharptails off foot. When you go to a lot of trials, and then get to see what a pros string can do while running on wild pheasants and sharptail in the prairies, you really get to see the difference between what makes a dog good, and what makes a dog great. With that said, go to enough trials and its interesting to see how the different trainers dogs perform against eachother as well. Not all trainers are created equal, not by a long shot. Ill be honest though, If I had to pick the perfect late season pheasant dog, it wouldn't be one of the pointing breeds. During the late season with spooky birds, I think you will kill more birds over a close working lab or springer. Too many roosters just aren't going to hold for a point, if your not ontop of a pointing dog when it locks up, many of the late season birds are just going to walk out from under the point.. That won't happen with a flushing dog. A perfect example was last year when we spent a few days hunting public land in SD in December. My buddies Brittany (shes the direct daughter of Nolan's Last Bullet) locked up hard on a bird. My dad and he walked up for the flush, and you could see the bird run out from under the dog and go blowing through the grass. You couldn't actually see the bird, all you could see was the ripple through the grass as the bird ran into some heavier cover. We relocated the dogs but I think the bird flew off once it got behind the trees because the dogs lost the scent. If we would have been hunting over any of the flushing breeds, that bird would have been in the air and it would have been dead. On that trip we did get a lot of nice points, and killed a lot of nice birds over those points, but I think we would have killed more birds with flushing dogs.
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wesslpointer
New member
In 1971 there was no such thing as an "American" they all were called "spaniels" name changed in 1982. He and others did it to make National ch dogs by creating long legged big running dogs. There were no spaniels at that time that could run "BIG" with the field trial dogs. An there dna was and is in the breed before todays testing. There's no such thing as "pure breed" all good breeders 'ADD'. :10sign: If you want a trial dog.