Where have all the Quail gone? - SE KS
- Thread starter -Wildcat-
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M. R. Byrd
Well-known member
When I lived in Frontenac(late 70's) the pits(as I recall), the one north was Crawford State Fishing Lake #1 and the south one was Crawford State Fishing Lake #2. I don't see anything on my Kansas atlas that lists them like that today.
The one north of town of 69 hiway we just referred to as "the state park", alway had a buffalo compound with elk as well in those days, Chicken Annies, Gephardt's, ( now gone I think), Chicken Mary's, across the street from Chicken Annies in the middle of nowhere! Spring River Inn, was good eating. There are pits east of Frontenac as well, that run over into Missouri at Mindenmines, and lots of good pits around Arcadia. Some pits so deep they have several thermal layers, and have an undertow! Knoodlers used to encounter a few alligators, ( dumped by hobbiests), and the ocassional cottonmouth. I have seen the cottonmouths on occasion, but never saw a gator, always hoped I would though as a kid. Nothing scared me bad enough to stay away. In the 60's you'd find blasting caps everywhere on the slag heaps, used to run PSA's daily on the local TV, telling you to leave them alone. I was to busy with M-80's and cherry bombs, they weren't legal but readily available, the whole town of Frontenac was in a smokey haze from about two weeks ahead and a week behind 4th of July.
Gepharts is still open.
Not to sure about the gator rumor,but you never know about them hillbillies in Acardia.
M. R. Byrd
Well-known member
Chicken Annie's and Chicken Mary's are in beautiful downtown Yale IIRC.
I think I heard the Spring River Inn burned.
Well, this thread is about quail, those tasty little buggers on the table. Might not be able to shoot them in SE Kansas, but you sure can eat good in the area.
I think I heard the Spring River Inn burned.
Well, this thread is about quail, those tasty little buggers on the table. Might not be able to shoot them in SE Kansas, but you sure can eat good in the area.
M. R. Byrd
Well-known member
I used to have a map with the names of all the mile intersections on it, i.e. Sitter's Corner, Camp 50, etc.
OKIEGunner
New member
Here is a quote from Prairie Drifter on another post-
(QUOTE)Myron,there are several documented problems with soybeans. First, there is a protein in soybeans that prevents quail from digesting their food. Dr. Robel fed pen raised quail a diet of soybeans with no other stress or needs and they all died. Also, soybeans exposed to the weather often develop a fungus that produces the T2 toxin that actually will kill quail. If you add in the lack of cover found in bean fields and the insecticides both applied and systemic that decimate the insect populations and I think anyone can do the math to see that soybeans add up to real problems for quail. Some staticians have graphed the increase in soybean acres against the decline in quail numbers and they are a good match in an inversely proportional relationship. Oooooo, big words for an old bird dogger.(QUOTE)
I was first alerted to the soybean issue when my good friend in Elk County told be about an article in the Wichita Eagle. He had not correlated the connection until that article, but after he read it, he said it was the case on his ranch that as milo began to be replaced by soybeans and finally soybeans became the main crop the quail numbers kept going down to now pretty much zero.
I was thinking that one of the reports on soybeans and quail had something to do with sterility issues when soybeans were a main part of the quail's diet. Maybe someone here knows if that is the case.
Soybeans were my favorite crop until that article changed things for me and I have not planted beans since. This year to work on some weed problems, it is being recommended that I rotate into beans. I know that makes sense for the farm operation, but I just don't know. I am betting that this won't be my year to make the cover of 'Successful Farming'.
Maynard
Do you know where I might find the documents you were referring too. I know this has been several years since you posted this; however, I sure could use the documents for some of the research I am doing at work on a Government agriculture contract directly related our quail decline. :cheers:
M. R. Byrd
Well-known member
I do not have the actually research work. Not sure where to direct you. Prairie Drifter might know.
Prairie Drifter
Well-known member
Can't believe the only post I have on here is Maynard quoting me. Let's run with this a bit!
SE Kansas has had several decades of negative habitat changes that accelerated in the 60's I believe. It was about then that folks decided fescue was better than the grass that had evolved in the area and started changing over native pastures to this introduced cool-season sod former. Unfortunately, as human's often do, we mucked things up. As a sod forming grass, fescue is not only a poor nesting habitat/ It also precludes weed invasion, which limits it's diversity and throws it out as brood rearing habitat as well.
About the same time, we reached some kind of tipping point. The woodlands of the area were seeing reduced pressures for cooking and heating, fire was becoming more rare, and the seed bank/productivity of the maturing trees launched a fairly agressive timber expansion in that part of Kansas. I don't remember the exact number, but 20+% expansion since 1985 is the gist of the change. All this time, the existing timber was maturing and canopying out ground level cover, making the wooded habitat largely unuseable.
Add in the conversion of historic crop rotations to one that is dominated by soybeans and their associated negatives and it's no wonder why quail aren't as numerous. Now, in the last 3 years, the area has had 20+ inches of rain in June. That knocks out probably 40-60% of the best nests of the year and makes lowland habitat unuseable for the rest of the season.
There are no doubt other factors involved including annual burning in some areas, herbicides, insecticides, improved combine efficience, modern grazing practices (I didn't say improved), and we're living the story we've written.
SE Kansas has had several decades of negative habitat changes that accelerated in the 60's I believe. It was about then that folks decided fescue was better than the grass that had evolved in the area and started changing over native pastures to this introduced cool-season sod former. Unfortunately, as human's often do, we mucked things up. As a sod forming grass, fescue is not only a poor nesting habitat/ It also precludes weed invasion, which limits it's diversity and throws it out as brood rearing habitat as well.
About the same time, we reached some kind of tipping point. The woodlands of the area were seeing reduced pressures for cooking and heating, fire was becoming more rare, and the seed bank/productivity of the maturing trees launched a fairly agressive timber expansion in that part of Kansas. I don't remember the exact number, but 20+% expansion since 1985 is the gist of the change. All this time, the existing timber was maturing and canopying out ground level cover, making the wooded habitat largely unuseable.
Add in the conversion of historic crop rotations to one that is dominated by soybeans and their associated negatives and it's no wonder why quail aren't as numerous. Now, in the last 3 years, the area has had 20+ inches of rain in June. That knocks out probably 40-60% of the best nests of the year and makes lowland habitat unuseable for the rest of the season.
There are no doubt other factors involved including annual burning in some areas, herbicides, insecticides, improved combine efficience, modern grazing practices (I didn't say improved), and we're living the story we've written.
Lets not forget the wholesale conversion to fescue and brome was trumpeted by the USDA and state ag departments as the greatest thing since sliced bread, much as they currently, ( with the duplicity of Kansas State), espouse the annual burning of the Flint Hills, which destroys habitat and disrupts prairie chicken life cycles, to encourage more gain from backgrounded cattle. If we can't even get the professionals to recognize anything but a narrow, single purpose slice of a complex and interelated ecosystem, or maybe more to the point, care, what hope is there?
Prairie Drifter
Well-known member
It is sad when a single minded view of our heritage actually destroys more than it saves! I appreciate you coming out and saying what I was tap dancing around. Anytime you try to maximize the economic reality of something, you usually squash a number of important other factors in the process.
We all like to lament the prairie chicken with the changes in grazing and burning in the Flint Hills, but the Flint Hills were once one of the strongholds for bobwhite as well. The annual burning eliminates nesting cover, selects against brood-rearing cover, and reduces/eliminates low woody cover necessary to bobwhite for cover. The double stocking further reduces cover height, making bobs more susceptible to predators and weather. Vicious circle.
We all like to lament the prairie chicken with the changes in grazing and burning in the Flint Hills, but the Flint Hills were once one of the strongholds for bobwhite as well. The annual burning eliminates nesting cover, selects against brood-rearing cover, and reduces/eliminates low woody cover necessary to bobwhite for cover. The double stocking further reduces cover height, making bobs more susceptible to predators and weather. Vicious circle.
Shadow
Banned
:cheers::10sign::10sign:
There used to be this nice 80 acre field on the edge of town that held 3 coveys of quail when I first moved here. I used to run the dogs in it and would get into quail all the time. Then about 5 years ago they develped it and started putting houses up everywhere and there went the quail and the place to run the dogs. Today on my way out of town something caught my eye. As I look over, a single quail flew from a little patch of corn that's still left to the tiny group of trees that haven't been torn down yet. I can't believe that quail is still holding on, I'm sure he will for another year or two until that clump of trees and corn is someone's front yard.
Prairie Drifter
Well-known member
Greedy, conscienceless species aren't we!!!
Shadow
Banned
quite shocking- never in 40 years of bobwhite hunting have I known 3 coveys of quail could survive and breed on 80 acreas-
There used to be quite of few farms in Missouri I hunted in the 70's and early 80's that had an average of a covey per 20 acres. One in particular a 120@ tract had at least 6 coveys continously for over 10 years, alas as in the Wichita case, now a housing tract in Clinton, Mo. There were others, one in what is now a subdivision of Stillwell, Kansas. We foolishly thought it would last forever. Missouri harvested in excess of 2,000,000 quail per year for many years in a row, 1967 I believe it was over 4,000,000! Now less than 30,000.
Shadow
Banned
really- I hunted for 30 some years arround Scranton and Burlingame- they were 1 mile by 1 mile farms- I could tell you on any given day where the quail roosts were
how big is 80 acreas- someone is living in a dream world if they think 3 coveys quail can live and survive in 80 acreas-
how big is 80 acreas- someone is living in a dream world if they think 3 coveys quail can live and survive in 80 acreas-
Prairie Drifter
Well-known member
Read the historical data Shadow. Peak quail populations have been recorded over 2 and possibly 3 quail per acre. That is 160-240 quail on 80 acres. Further, depending on what part of the year it is, quail populations that were spread over more acres in the summer and fall are often compressed into fewer acres as crops are harvested and fields worked. It's very possible for 3 coveys to be found on 80 acres, even in Kansas.
Missouri quail recovery goal is one bird for every two acres, on the targeted quail recoverytracts they own and manage for quail. They are no where close currently. Anywhere you find a bird per acre or more, you are either in the midst of a most fortunate set of circumstances where all the stars aligned, or somebody is spending a tremendous amount of money and effort to make it so! But it certainly can be done and has happened both with planning and dumb luck in the past. I hope to see that again.