Ever walked a field totally alone (no dog). Well I have...waste of time.
When I walk a field with my flushing mutt, who is FAR from a great phez dog, she puts up birds both near and far.
Pointer vrs Flusher Article in Shooting Sportsman
- Thread starter mlf3882
- Start date
Ever walked a field totally alone (no dog). Well I have...waste of time.
When I walk a field with my flushing mutt, who is FAR from a great phez dog, she puts up birds both near and far.
BRITTMAN
Well-known member
Birds are passed by all the time. Birds run circles, back track ...
I suppose most run with the crowd and bust wild ...
Told these before, but I have watched two guys and a springer walk into a couple acre cattail slough in a wheat field. The birds ran out of the slough and crossed the road. The guys could not figure out why they did not put up a single bird ( not even a hen ).
Seen a rooster and two hens run across a chisel plowed dirt field as two guys walked a irrigation ditch towards a guy posting on the road....
Walked a small slough in a MN WMA four times (there and back twice) ... I knew birds were choosing to circle me, rather than fly by tracks in the snow ... some tracks crossing my boot tracks. Fourth time dog pointed and I killed a long spur, long tailed rooster. How many times had that dog been passed by all season long ?
Most birds are not that seasoned ... but dog and man make a good combo when working together.
I suppose most run with the crowd and bust wild ...
Told these before, but I have watched two guys and a springer walk into a couple acre cattail slough in a wheat field. The birds ran out of the slough and crossed the road. The guys could not figure out why they did not put up a single bird ( not even a hen ).
Seen a rooster and two hens run across a chisel plowed dirt field as two guys walked a irrigation ditch towards a guy posting on the road....
Walked a small slough in a MN WMA four times (there and back twice) ... I knew birds were choosing to circle me, rather than fly by tracks in the snow ... some tracks crossing my boot tracks. Fourth time dog pointed and I killed a long spur, long tailed rooster. How many times had that dog been passed by all season long ?
Most birds are not that seasoned ... but dog and man make a good combo when working together.
carptom1
Well-known member
I will put you in a draw with no dog, and I will take a good flusher down the other and we will see who finds more birds. Apparently you have never hunted behind a good one. As to when one wants a flusher, I will put a good flushers nose up against any pointer. I have seen both pointers and flushers that were not worth a crap so I won't make blanket statements that make me appear any more ignorant than I already do
It's part of the game!
I don't discount the nose or ability of a lab I have one now! Most have a superior nose to an even number of pointers, but that's an opinion. I think it depends on the game. Pheasants are a down in the mud game in my opinion. it takes what you have to do to get a shot. Lots of hard hunted pheasants will not hold for a pointing dog period. If you are going to get any, you shoot when you can, with no holds barred. Best pheasant hunter I know used a cocker and a rat terrier, hunted in tattered bib overalls shot full choke M-12 with no bluing, worn down to the nickel steel. The pointer hunter wants a different experience, probably hunts quail, or ruffed grouse, likes to have a bonus pheasants along the way, or enjoys the mind game of playing a game on the opponents home court and rules. Birds harvested are not necessarily the point, it's the point, some take my breath away, a lot make me marvel, even trying to figure out the actual bird pointed! I do not say that I don't enjoy a great performance of a flushing dog. I do! I'd own them all if I could! But for me, hunting is a value-added walk. I like the pointers to hunt over, while I am watching an eagle overhead, identifying habitat flora, and watching the fall color, inhaling the musty fall air, the pointers will find some thing, and wait as best as they can, till I find them. At that point I am the hunter-shooter, employ some 100 year old double, to return to the nature walker later. I enjoy the vision of the point, the setting, the skill, the effort, and the natural instinct for years, in dreams or over a drink of bourbon on a cold night!
I don't discount the nose or ability of a lab I have one now! Most have a superior nose to an even number of pointers, but that's an opinion. I think it depends on the game. Pheasants are a down in the mud game in my opinion. it takes what you have to do to get a shot. Lots of hard hunted pheasants will not hold for a pointing dog period. If you are going to get any, you shoot when you can, with no holds barred. Best pheasant hunter I know used a cocker and a rat terrier, hunted in tattered bib overalls shot full choke M-12 with no bluing, worn down to the nickel steel. The pointer hunter wants a different experience, probably hunts quail, or ruffed grouse, likes to have a bonus pheasants along the way, or enjoys the mind game of playing a game on the opponents home court and rules. Birds harvested are not necessarily the point, it's the point, some take my breath away, a lot make me marvel, even trying to figure out the actual bird pointed! I do not say that I don't enjoy a great performance of a flushing dog. I do! I'd own them all if I could! But for me, hunting is a value-added walk. I like the pointers to hunt over, while I am watching an eagle overhead, identifying habitat flora, and watching the fall color, inhaling the musty fall air, the pointers will find some thing, and wait as best as they can, till I find them. At that point I am the hunter-shooter, employ some 100 year old double, to return to the nature walker later. I enjoy the vision of the point, the setting, the skill, the effort, and the natural instinct for years, in dreams or over a drink of bourbon on a cold night!
I think the nose debate is a wash.
I also think those dogs are in those roles due to their biddability and cooperation. Labs/Goldens GENERALLY have pointers beat at that.
SetterNut
New member
Threads like this can be a lot of fun as long as everyone can take things with a grain of salt and have a sense of humor.
I would guess that the average guy with a good dog in heavier cover, would have more shots on pheasants with a flushing dog than a pointing dog. In fact in a swampy cattail area, it would be a pain to go in and flush the bird in front of a pointing dog.
But in a big open area where the birds are spread out that same guy would do better with a pointing dog.
However most of us pick dogs that we like the look of and that fit the cover and birds that we hunt the most. Pheasants are rarely my main target, we have a few but not a lot. I prefer the native birds, Quail, Prairie Chicken, and the Grouse.... and they are a lot of fun with a pointing dog. I live in good quail and PC country, that can be big and open or with lots of spread out plum thickets. You can't and don't want to walk the dog over to every one of those, you want the dog to go check them out. If there are birds there the dog goes on point, if not you just keep moving in the general direction you want the dogs to go.
But I have gotten to the point there the dog work is likely more important to me than shooting the bird. I still like to have something in the back of the vest at the end of the hunt, but I enjoy seeing my dog work. At times that dog work starts with him several hundred yards away on point. When you are walking in on a dog that has been standing on point for 10 minutes while you are closing the distance and your other dog is backing, it doesn't get any better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQBY75XYgP8
I have not done a great deal of hunting behind a flushing dog. Some pheasant hunting with a lab, and my buddy in college had a GSP that would flush lots of birds at 300 yards.
But while it is fun to watch a flushing dog get birdy an work up a bird, for me it is not the same level of dog work as displayed by pointing dogs.
But did you guys know that there are areas of the country where it is nearly a crime, to hunt quail with a flushing dog
I would guess that the average guy with a good dog in heavier cover, would have more shots on pheasants with a flushing dog than a pointing dog. In fact in a swampy cattail area, it would be a pain to go in and flush the bird in front of a pointing dog.
But in a big open area where the birds are spread out that same guy would do better with a pointing dog.
However most of us pick dogs that we like the look of and that fit the cover and birds that we hunt the most. Pheasants are rarely my main target, we have a few but not a lot. I prefer the native birds, Quail, Prairie Chicken, and the Grouse.... and they are a lot of fun with a pointing dog. I live in good quail and PC country, that can be big and open or with lots of spread out plum thickets. You can't and don't want to walk the dog over to every one of those, you want the dog to go check them out. If there are birds there the dog goes on point, if not you just keep moving in the general direction you want the dogs to go.
But I have gotten to the point there the dog work is likely more important to me than shooting the bird. I still like to have something in the back of the vest at the end of the hunt, but I enjoy seeing my dog work. At times that dog work starts with him several hundred yards away on point. When you are walking in on a dog that has been standing on point for 10 minutes while you are closing the distance and your other dog is backing, it doesn't get any better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQBY75XYgP8
I have not done a great deal of hunting behind a flushing dog. Some pheasant hunting with a lab, and my buddy in college had a GSP that would flush lots of birds at 300 yards.
But while it is fun to watch a flushing dog get birdy an work up a bird, for me it is not the same level of dog work as displayed by pointing dogs.But did you guys know that there are areas of the country where it is nearly a crime, to hunt quail with a flushing dog
814 yards! You better start running! haha!
I thought long and hard about what kind of dog I wanted. Upper midwest and pheasants tends to mean thick cover. Sure, early season is nice CRP grass, but early season doesn't last long up North, especially on public ground. So if I was 100% phez, a lab it would be (especially since I waterfowl).
But I personally don't think phez hunting is going to be worth a damn for a whole lot longer. It's all about habitat, and I think we are losing that battle. (I hope I'm wrong)
Ruffed Grouse in Minnesota however...
So I got a draht.
I thought long and hard about what kind of dog I wanted. Upper midwest and pheasants tends to mean thick cover. Sure, early season is nice CRP grass, but early season doesn't last long up North, especially on public ground. So if I was 100% phez, a lab it would be (especially since I waterfowl).
But I personally don't think phez hunting is going to be worth a damn for a whole lot longer. It's all about habitat, and I think we are losing that battle. (I hope I'm wrong)
Ruffed Grouse in Minnesota however...
So I got a draht.
mnaj_springer
New member
Setternut, you're clearly bias! And while bringing up biases, you haven't seen good flushing dog work until you've seen a top spaniel! :cheers:
SetterNut
New member
carptom1
Well-known member
So only pointers give good dog work? How about a flusher pounding cattails on a -10 degree day in the snow putting up birds that otherwise would have been missed? Would that qualify? Or maybe tracking a wounded bird for 600 yards across a wash that otherwise would have been lost? Or cornering runners and pushing them back to the shooters? Or busting cattails all day while the pointers are walking the edges? It does seem to me that the pointer guys are always classifying the flusher guys as meat hunters that have dogs 10 yards in front of them accidentally stumbling into a bird or two. They wear out fast and cover 1/10 of the ground and are shot by noon. Again not my experience. A good lab may not run 30 miles in a day, but most pointers want nothing to do with the cover they bust all day long. I would love for you guys to spend a day hunting with a good flusher in the cold, you may change your Idea of what "good" dog work is.
Setter Nut and mnaj Springer you guys are the reason this debates continues thru the ages and it is a joy to hear the points/counter points (guess that would equate to flush) that you guys bring up. :10sign:
I have and hunt both pointer and flusher but with full disclosure they are not trial quality but get the job done by finding birds and bringing them back. But I have been fortunite to hunt behind both types trained to a higher level then mine and they are both a joy to watch. If anyone is curious to what degree a flusher can be trained to, go to youtube and search for "rough shooting" and click on any video by Nick Ridley. The degree of control he and his hunting companions have over their cockers is amazing! Not to take away from pointers cause it seems there are lots of videos of amazing dog work from them out there as well, but the Brits seem to take flusher control to a whole new level.
Would enjoy getting to the level where I have pointers and flushers with that degree of finished work...hopefully in a few years when my last kid is out of the house and I am looking for a slower pace from being a single parent.
When I was a teenager with my first lab I was able to train to him to the level of doing double blind retrieves...it was not rocket science but cause I was socially awkward had lots of time to spend working the dog...every single day.
Setter Nut- I have a Garmin Alpha as well (only way I can tolerate letting the Griffon away from my side) and if I found her that far away from me I would loose my "shit!"...kudos to ya.
I have and hunt both pointer and flusher but with full disclosure they are not trial quality but get the job done by finding birds and bringing them back. But I have been fortunite to hunt behind both types trained to a higher level then mine and they are both a joy to watch. If anyone is curious to what degree a flusher can be trained to, go to youtube and search for "rough shooting" and click on any video by Nick Ridley. The degree of control he and his hunting companions have over their cockers is amazing! Not to take away from pointers cause it seems there are lots of videos of amazing dog work from them out there as well, but the Brits seem to take flusher control to a whole new level.
Would enjoy getting to the level where I have pointers and flushers with that degree of finished work...hopefully in a few years when my last kid is out of the house and I am looking for a slower pace from being a single parent.
When I was a teenager with my first lab I was able to train to him to the level of doing double blind retrieves...it was not rocket science but cause I was socially awkward had lots of time to spend working the dog...every single day.
Setter Nut- I have a Garmin Alpha as well (only way I can tolerate letting the Griffon away from my side) and if I found her that far away from me I would loose my "shit!"...kudos to ya.
Gatzby
Well-known member
How many birds were harvested over each of the three dogs would be much more telling.
Some dogs run around like sprayed cockroachs accomplishing little more than an extra set of feet on the ground. While others will use the wind, cover, and experiance to produce birds.
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mnaj_springer
New member
Haha this has turned into a fun debate!
To be clear, I have a flusher AND a pointer. I love them both. They're way different in the best way possible, and it's fun rotating between the two, using them in the cover and situations that allow them to succeed!
To be clear, I have a flusher AND a pointer. I love them both. They're way different in the best way possible, and it's fun rotating between the two, using them in the cover and situations that allow them to succeed!
Nice! Way to hold a "game changing" card till the proper time! So with that being put out there let us know how you feel about the following-
Granted what I am about to write can be based on location (i.e. Walking in the woods of Northern MI is vastly diff then walking in Cascades at 7K feet) but when following the spaniels my cardio workout is much greater then with the griffon. Some days honestly I wake up either from a hard night at work or after too many libations and look at 2 spaniels and 1 griff, all are ready to go but me...maybe that day, not so much...other days, ready to 'work it hard'. My point is that with the griff I in general do not have to physically exert myself as much as with the spaniels. In the end though...any dog be that it point or flush is a joy to watch just like your kids are...provided they are putting out there best effort and not jerking a chicken.
An uncle of mine years ago in southern MI had a dachshund who he hunted pheasants with (back when we had pheasants) and he claimed that he put the dog in the gamebag and when got to an area of heavy brush pulled the miniature dog out and set it on the ground...who would of thought.
PheasantWhisperer
Member
I would take the Pepsi challenge any day. Better get your wallet out though. $50/bird. That sound about right? And yes I do have a bias on pointing dogs. But quail is my main chase because of where I live. When dogs go on point it gives everyone time to get into position to shoot. They dont bust till you bust em. And on runners they just relocate and pin. My older dog is great on pheasants once she learned to relocate on runners. And with her nose, she dont walk past too many. And she is a bull dozer. Like I said, get your wallet out. And afterwards we can go to the bar and play pool. Keep your wallet out...cause its $50/ball too.
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mnaj_springer
New member
That sounds about right. I tend to walk the trail and let my pointer range. With the spaniels I have to get into cover with them. But they each have their place. My pointer doesn't hunt the cattails and willow thickets like my spaniel.