Maybe new trespass laws and waterfowl tags for Non-Res

[moellermd]

I would like to announce the early offer to buy stock in Super Phez. We will do what Mega Phez does only a little better and a little cheaper. For more information on this once in a lifetime opportunity contact my acounting firm of DEWEY, CHEATUM and HOWE at BR549.

Yea I am going to open Super-Mega Phez.

I would rather have to hunt all day for one bird and be left alone. Then risk playing mortal combat to get my share of the pie.

My experience has been other hunters rather than land owners are the cause of conflict on these opening day events.

 

[RK Special K]

Rich, lush stands of "CRP"(aka grass) is THE sustaining support habitat for pheasants. 5% is barely adequate. 10-15% is really good and should be the goal.

Back in the Soil Bank years, the eastern states had 10-20%. Now it's less than 1%. Michigan, for instance, is way below 1%. When grass dips below
5% of the landscape, it really is, the skull and crossbones for adequate pheasant numbers. Some say that late harvested wheat is an adequate substitute.

If this new group can't find a way to put at least 10% of "pheasantland" into permanent grass, it will flounder. And I mean PERMANENT, IRREVOCABLE grass - aka "the Final Solution". Aside from occasional weather catastrophies, 1-2 million bird harvests should be routine in Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, and North Dakota. 500k+ in Minnesota and Montana. Fringe states should have smaller areas that perform just as well. The eastern states just have too many people to fuss with it - WE occupy the habitat. I mention Iowa, but it too has come down with "eastern pheasant cancer". Usually a deadly form. Let's all say a prayer for our dear friend Iowa.

I might look into working for this new group.

 

[haymaker]

Rich, lush stands of "CRP"(aka grass) is THE sustaining support habitat for pheasants. 5% is barely adequate. 10-15% is really good and should be the goal.

Back in the Soil Bank years, the eastern states had 10-20%. Now it's less than 1%. Michigan, for instance, is way below 1%. When grass dips below
5% of the landscape, it really is, the skull and crossbones for adequate pheasant numbers. Some say that late harvested wheat is an adequate substitute.

If this new group can't find a way to put at least 10% of "pheasantland" into permanent grass, it will flounder. And I mean PERMANENT, IRREVOCABLE grass - aka "the Final Solution". Aside from occasional weather catastrophies, 1-2 million bird harvests should be routine in Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota, and North Dakota. 500k+ in Minnesota and Montana. Fringe states should have smaller areas that perform just as well. The eastern states just have too many people to fuss with it - WE occupy the habitat. I mention Iowa, but it too has come down with "eastern pheasant cancer". Usually a deadly form. Let's all say a prayer for our dear friend Iowa.

I might look into working for this new group.

On our own operation we have about 2000 acres. 300 of that is CRP, 750acres is in native sod that we use as pasture when it rains, so we are about 50% grass.

 

[onpoint]

OP that is part of the appeal of what I offer, the hunters have a place with good habitat reserved for them. A place to stay, don't have to do a lot of driving, cook your own meals, clean your own birds and hunt with your dog. The main thing is that you get to do it your way.

I can't criticize that. The inter-net is not a place to judge the true character of anybody. I'm sure most of us on here in person, could hit off quit well. Your doing your best to do what you think is right and how you were raised. I come from the land of plenty when it comes to public land. It's hard to change a old dog like me. I'm use to being able to drive 20 miles and only run past a few small tracks of private land. 1,000's and 1,000's of acres to explore and enjoy with plenty to get lost in..no really get lost. Two local young men have been lost since I lived here. One was found a year later. One has never been found. Big country.

Like I say, just tough to swallow all the "step" on my land I'll have you arrested type thing that populates the Pheasant belt. To us who are use to so much free access. It seems kind of unfriendly. We don't see people insisting on making a buck with their every move. Hunting has always been pretty much free access. I'll keep enjoying my pristine Ruff Grouse hunting(seen numerous of them today riding the ATV around the woods today, lots of drumming going on). Stop and hunt my Pheasants in Minnesota. Then head out and enjoy some waterfowl hunting with my south Dakota friends. Maybe shoot a Mulie some years. People from different regions are not going to see some things the same or agree on what may be common practice to one, may be as fouign as Pluto to the other.

God Bless and take care:cheers:

 

[RK Special K]

Haymaker......

The 750 acres of native praire that is grazed does not count for pheasants. Very little value to hen pheasants during the crucial brood rearing period. This 750 acres is excellent for sharptails though.

But you do have the 300 acres of CRP - that's 15% of your property and that is REALLY good. I bet you have good numbers. Shouldn't need more than that unless you want to "blow the roof off" with numbers.

I was at a habitat seminar in ND a few years back and a pheasant biologist showed us a graph depicting how pheasant #'s respond to good, healthy, TALL grass(aka CRP).

From 0% to 25% CRP, pheasant #'s climb VERY sharply. From 25% to 50% CRP, the rise in #'s stops or VERY slightly declines(that is, there is no benefit to going above 25% but you won't loose many any either). From 50% to 100%, the decline in #'s is noticeable but gradual - to a point that at 100% CRP, there are almost NO pheasants.

Moral of the story: Pheasants LOVE farmland with crops. BUT BUT BUT, it absolutely MUST have 5-20% CRP type grass mixed in with it. Otherwise, farmland is no better than the shopping mall parking lot. Believe me, I know. I live in Michigan and we have lots of farmland but NO CRP. Therefore, NO birds! There are, of course, some very isolated exceptions that have a token smattering of birds, but not really worth the mention.

 

[RK Special K]

I should also clarify......

The above graph illustration assumes a rather large area. 6,7,8 townships - perhaps even half a county.

So if your nieghbors don't have much CRP, then your going to 25% may not have that big of an effect.

So we are talking the overwhelming extensive landscape theme must contain 5-20% CRP.

If one farmer in Michigan had 2000 acres and 400 acres was CRP, it would be difficult to have any effect when the overwhelming landscape theme around him is hostile to pheasants.

 

[haymaker]

Haymaker......

The 750 acres of native praire that is grazed does not count for pheasants. Very little value to hen pheasants during the crucial brood rearing period. This 750 acres is excellent for sharptails though.

But you do have the 300 acres of CRP - that's 15% of your property and that is REALLY good. I bet you have good numbers. Shouldn't need more than that unless you want to "blow the roof off" with numbers.

I was at a habitat seminar in ND a few years back and a pheasant biologist showed us a graph depicting how pheasant #'s respond to good, healthy, TALL grass(aka CRP).

From 0% to 25% CRP, pheasant #'s climb VERY sharply. From 25% to 50% CRP, the rise in #'s stops or VERY slightly declines(that is, there is no benefit to going above 25% but you won't loose many any either). From 50% to 100%, the decline in #'s is noticeable but gradual - to a point that at 100% CRP, there are almost NO pheasants.

Moral of the story: Pheasants LOVE farmland with crops. BUT BUT BUT, it absolutely MUST have 5-20% CRP type grass mixed in with it. Otherwise, farmland is no better than the shopping mall parking lot. Believe me, I know. I live in Michigan and we have lots of farmland but NO CRP. Therefore, NO birds! There are, of course, some very isolated exceptions that have a token smattering of birds, but not really worth the mention.

I beg to differ on the value of my grassland acres. I manage my grazing very carefully. Last year at the first of august I had half of those acres had not had a cow on it. I move a hot wire twice a day so I get a really good look at my pasture and the wildlife that lives there. I saw a lot of pheasants there so they must have thought there was a good reason to be there. Your statement is a prime example of what frustrates me. I have lived here all my life and have hunted pheasants for 50 years. I have run a hunting business for 10 years. I am still learning and don't claim to know it all by any means but I think I have a clue about what i am doing, and I guess the hunters that come here do too. Somehow you who have never been here as far as I know, are sure that my grass is of very little value to a hen pheasant. Amazing.

 

[moellermd]

Haymaker......

The 750 acres of native praire that is grazed does not count for pheasants. Very little value to hen pheasants during the crucial brood rearing.

I guy has 750 acres of virgin prarie but it does not count because it does not help with pheasant numbers I would appear from that comment your main concern is not diverse habitat but weather it makes pheasants to shoot.

 

[mnmthunting]

Cattle grazing rangeland does NOT resemble a lawn or golf course.
Or even a cut CRP field. Pastureland can be very good pheasant nesting and brood rearing cover. There are usually low areas of less palatable grasses and almost always coulees and areas of woody stem stuff, like snowberry, wild rose, wild plum etc. Lots of cow pies, cows let the tall grass grow near the poop.

750 acres of native range in SD pheasant country with a mixture of CRP, some corn, some small grain stubble is VERY much pheasant friendly. :10sign:
Haymaker, sounds good to me.:thumbsup:

 

[RK Special K]

Haymaker.....

Please take my comments as somewhat of a "generalization". I have not seen your property so I cannot really comment on it very specifically.

I will try again to explain what I mean:

Tall, healthy grass is what PRODUCES and sustains long-term pheasant populations.

I see pheasants in the middle of an asphalt highway but that does not mean we would have any pheasants if we paved the township over with asphalt. The same is true for grazed praire grass. If your township was almost all grazed praire grass, there would be few pheasants(if any). The fact that you see birds in the praire grass IS BECAUSE of your CRP and because the surrounding landscape theme in your area INCLUDES a decent amount of CRP type grass. You probably also see birds in your back yard but that doesn't mean your backyard is good pheasant habitat(except for perhaps winter shelter). In Michigan, we have LOTS of farm yards but they attract no birds because there ARE NO birds because we have no grass to PRODUCE the birds. Sure, AFTER birds are provided their biological, life sustaining habitat(aka CRP), they will wonder around just about EVERYWHERE.

Unless your praire grass is 18+ inches tall from early spring to mid-summer I don't think it provides the life-sustaining, long-term, pheasant producing habitat required by pheasants. As part of a diversified mix, it certainly doesn't hurt to have it, IF IF IF, this mix includes the 5-20% CRP type grass.

Another point: I love to hunt pheasants in cut crops(standing crops with permission) BUT if the entire landscape theme was crops, there would be NO pheasants in them to hunt!

A lot of "diversity" is a good thing and it makes for better "huntability" and shelter, but if it doesn't include a significant amount of CRP type grass, it's not worth a damn to the long-term, sustainability of pheasant populations. That said, pheasants do need shelter and love to eat crops so those should be included in "the mix".

 

[oldandnew]

On our own operation we have about 2000 acres. 300 of that is CRP, 750acres is in native sod that we use as pasture when it rains, so we are about 50% grass.

If everybody had the same. We would find a different subject, and our fears would be over. I will tell you I have hunted "virgin" prairie, which was grazed, there are a whole lot of pheasants out there which never see a farmed acre! As far as Michigan goes, I saw a whole army of pheasants there in town, running around like chickens in a delrelict nieghborhoods, and closed factories in Detroit. No row crop any where around. One must wonder what pheasants evolved from before man had row crop farming? I guess they ate weed seeds, grasshoppers, rosehips, and fresh green sprouts. It's amazing, I find those in the crops of the non-ag pheasants! I wonder where all this hocum put out by "research projects" get reverated as gospel for infinity, and how much does it cost? Pheasants are scroungers, thats why the are successful. Minimal grass structure may be 15-50% in a highly tilled agriculture setting, and may get exceptable production. Range pheasants are harder to find, migrating a few sections to avoid snowmass, weather, or food sources, translation, you have to walk farther, but they are there, in numbers. If you have a food plot agricultural enterprise, or a share cropper patch, it will provide easy access to keep food available to pheasants and quail. Any other percentage is less grass to help confound the predators. Have you ever watched foxes or coyotes, criss cross a CRP border grass strip? They find everything, better hearing and nose than your bird dog. If they have to recointer a 160@ field of grazed grass, it's a different story, and some broods survive. Quail have symbiotic relationship with cattle and horses, they move with them, and avoid avian predators, letting the horses or cows alert them to danger, eat and drink around them, same schedule. Pheasants are famous for living in the hedgerow near a feed lot, or scamming the chickens out of their dinner. Many depression rooster was a dinner via .22 short at chicken feeding time. Agriculture necessitates herbicides, pesticides, and habitat destruction, as apposed to a horse or cow track and grazed down grass a tiny quail or pheasant chick can negotiate. Which is better?

 

[mnmthunting]

Oldandnew, That's a good post.
My favorite places to hunt pheasants are BIG cattle ranches. Both in Western ND and MT. The ones I hunt have NONE, ZERO! NEVER had CRP Acres and NEVER had any soil bank.
Why? they need all the land for cattle production. Always a steady reliable population of wild roosters, Huns and Sharptails.
They raise irrigated hay. With irrigation ditches there is always water and cover.
The pheasants nest and rear their broods successfully in the pastureland.
Lots of good Winter shelter, always a good Winter food supply for the birds.
And the folks all carry varmint guns loaded up in the pickups, wheelers whatever.:thumbsup:

 

[haymaker]

Haymaker.....

Please take my comments as somewhat of a "generalization". I have not seen your property so I cannot really comment on it very specifically.

I will try again to explain what I mean:

Tall, healthy grass is what PRODUCES and sustains long-term pheasant populations.

I see pheasants in the middle of an asphalt highway but that does not mean we would have any pheasants if we paved the township over with asphalt. The same is true for grazed praire grass. If your township was almost all grazed praire grass, there would be few pheasants(if any). The fact that you see birds in the praire grass IS BECAUSE of your CRP and because the surrounding landscape theme in your area INCLUDES a decent amount of CRP type grass. You probably also see birds in your back yard but that doesn't mean your backyard is good pheasant habitat(except for perhaps winter shelter). In Michigan, we have LOTS of farm yards but they attract no birds because there ARE NO birds because we have no grass to PRODUCE the birds. Sure, AFTER birds are provided their biological, life sustaining habitat(aka CRP), they will wonder around just about EVERYWHERE.

Unless your praire grass is 18+ inches tall from early spring to mid-summer I don't think it provides the life-sustaining, long-term, pheasant producing habitat required by pheasants. As part of a diversified mix, it certainly doesn't hurt to have it, IF IF IF, this mix includes the 5-20% CRP type grass.

Another point: I love to hunt pheasants in cut crops(standing crops with permission) BUT if the entire landscape theme was crops, there would be NO pheasants in them to hunt!

A lot of "diversity" is a good thing and it makes for better "huntability" and shelter, but if it doesn't include a significant amount of CRP type grass, it's not worth a damn to the long-term, sustainability of pheasant populations. That said, pheasants do need shelter and love to eat crops so those should be included in "the mix".

I understand about the generalization and the value of taller CRP type grasses, that is part of the reason that I have CRP. Generalization can lead to inaccuracy. It isn't about one better than the other it is about giving them all that they need to prosper. This year because it is dry every thing is short. Two years ago there was sweet clover taller than my head out there. The true expert on what is good for a pheasant is a pheasant. Every time I see a pheasant in my pasture I know that pheasant (the expert) has expressed its opinion on what habitat it wanted to use at that time. Pheasants need lots of things, some at different times of the day. I don't think the next time I see pheasants in my grassland that I will chase them over to some CRP.

 

[RK Special K]

I stand firmly on my previous post because it covers what everybody, to one degree, agrees with. That is: Diversity is good so long as it provides areas in pasture land or cropland for good tall grass.

But let's make sure we are all talking the same language here:

Here's my language: I am talking about restoring and maintaining bird numbers to where they were in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Within 85% of those record numbers in ALL of historical "western pheasantland". Forget about the eastern states - too far gone to rescue.

Your language: Pheasants can survive in downtown Detoit and in other rather isolated areas AND in relatively thinner #'s in the grazed praire land. Yes, sufficient in numbers for the 5-20% of hunters who are hard-core, diehard bird hunters. Damn, we'll find some birds, no doubt. AND "some really good pockets here and there". And they will have weed seeds in their crops. But I am confident that grazed praire land, on average, cannot support the large bird numbers that most of us are accustomed to. Adequate numbers for some of us though, for sure. Just not on the level of the "heyday". Simply will not happen.

But let's face facts: With the exception of SD in the mid-late 2000's(mostly because of the rise in CRP), pheasant numbers are in a long-term decline throughout most of their historical range. Iowa is just the biggest example. There are MANY other ones like eastern Nebraska, SW Minnesota. etc.

When we were "experimenting" with pheasant releases in our country, many places were tried. We finally hit the "jackpot" in the Willemette Valley of Oregon. This area was a fertile but relatively ragged and inneficiently farmed area. Lots of tall grass around. Pheasant numbers literally EXPLODED in this environment. Ah-ha, we've cracked the code! We've "dialed it in".

Pheasants in their native Asian range do not exist in numbers anywhere near what we have in SD. They exist in rather thin numbers as I have heard. Might, of course, be exceptions. What we did was find a "turbo-charged" environment in Oregon and eventually in other farmland with lots of grass. And I will say, maybe we are spoiled. Maybe we should do nothing and let the slide continue to a point where they are almost like sage grouse. 1 or 2 taken per year by the last true diehards.

There is almost a direct correlation between the amount of CRP type grass(whether in the praire or cropland) and the number of pheasants. It's almost spot-on!

So I stand on my point: We must have CRP type grass as a part of a diversified mix in either cropland or praireland. I will argue, however, that pheasants will be "turbo-charged" best in cropland.

 

[RK Special K]

The "Detroit" example is a VERY good lesson in what I am talking about:

There are areas in downtown Detroit that have become overgrown with weedy, tall grass intertwined around run-down structures for shelter. And a few birds DO exist there. There is no grazed pasture. No crops. They are there because THE most important habitat component is there - GRASS! If they have that, they will find a way to scratch out an existence. Not in great #'s but a few will certainly make it.

If this weedy grass was TOTALLY replaced by grazed pastureland or planted and harvested crops, I guarantee you that there would be NO birds. And I mean -0-.

The commom denominator is ALWAYS at least some amount of knee-high to waste-high grass. It ALL falls apart without it.

 

[fsentkilr]

The "Detroit" example is a VERY good lesson in what I am talking about:

There are areas in downtown Detroit that have become overgrown with weedy, tall grass intertwined around run-down structures for shelter. And a few birds DO exist there. There is no grazed pasture. No crops. They are there because THE most important habitat component is there - GRASS! If they have that, they will find a way to scratch out an existence. Not in great #'s but a few will certainly make it.

If this weedy grass was TOTALLY replaced by grazed pastureland or planted and harvested crops, I guarantee you that there would be NO birds. And I mean -0-.

The commom denominator is ALWAYS at least some amount of knee-high to waste-high grass. It ALL falls apart without it.

I have shot a lot of phez in western Kansas before CRP, where there wasn't any grass that wasn't grazed within 50 miles. There was wheat and grazed pastures however. So how can you say without ungrazed grass there would be 0 birds. The statement is assinine. I contend that properly grazed grass may actually be better than heavy overgrown CRP. The chicks move around in in easier. There are always wet areas, ect. that don't get grazed much.

 

[siouxcitysmitty]

Too bad that when I'm out hunting walk-in, those other hunters aren't bigger fans of grazed pasture, and just leave the CRP to me!

 

[haymaker]

I stand firmly on my previous post because it covers what everybody, to one degree, agrees with. That is: Diversity is good so long as it provides areas in pasture land or cropland for good tall grass.

But let's make sure we are all talking the same language here:

Here's my language: I am talking about restoring and maintaining bird numbers to where they were in the 40's, 50's and 60's. Within 85% of those record numbers in ALL of historical "western pheasantland". Forget about the eastern states - too far gone to rescue.

Your language: Pheasants can survive in downtown Detoit and in other rather isolated areas AND in relatively thinner #'s in the grazed praire land. Yes, sufficient in numbers for the 5-20% of hunters who are hard-core, diehard bird hunters. Damn, we'll find some birds, no doubt. AND "some really good pockets here and there". And they will have weed seeds in their crops. But I am confident that grazed praire land, on average, cannot support the large bird numbers that most of us are accustomed to. Adequate numbers for some of us though, for sure. Just not on the level of the "heyday". Simply will not happen.

But let's face facts: With the exception of SD in the mid-late 2000's(mostly because of the rise in CRP), pheasant numbers are in a long-term decline throughout most of their historical range. Iowa is just the biggest example. There are MANY other ones like eastern Nebraska, SW Minnesota. etc.

When we were "experimenting" with pheasant releases in our country, many places were tried. We finally hit the "jackpot" in the Willemette Valley of Oregon. This area was a fertile but relatively ragged and inneficiently farmed area. Lots of tall grass around. Pheasant numbers literally EXPLODED in this environment. Ah-ha, we've cracked the code! We've "dialed it in".

Pheasants in their native Asian range do not exist in numbers anywhere near what we have in SD. They exist in rather thin numbers as I have heard. Might, of course, be exceptions. What we did was find a "turbo-charged" environment in Oregon and eventually in other farmland with lots of grass. And I will say, maybe we are spoiled. Maybe we should do nothing and let the slide continue to a point where they are almost like sage grouse. 1 or 2 taken per year by the last true diehards.

There is almost a direct correlation between the amount of CRP type grass(whether in the praire or cropland) and the number of pheasants. It's almost spot-on!

So I stand on my point: We must have CRP type grass as a part of a diversified mix in either cropland or praireland. I will argue, however, that pheasants will be "turbo-charged" best in cropland.

I don't think I have argued against the benefit of CRP. My argument with you is that native pasture does not count, and the concept of using eminent domain as a method to procure land for hunters. You talk about grazed pasture, so I guess you have seen some pastures at some point during hunting season. But if it rains, with the way I manage my pastures half of the pasture is untouched as of the 1st of August. The first pasture that I use will have been rested since the end of May. By the end of the growing season that pasture will have had over 100 days of rest, and believe me when I tell you that pheasants use it to roost in at that time of year. Mean while the grass that was never touched till August and later is being grazed and will be half of its ungrazed height. So at some time of the year all the grass acres are doing something for the pheasants and other wildlife. If my grassland isn't important why are DU and PF trying to take control of it through sodsaver legislation? Sorry if I am a little passionate about this but you happened to pick a subject that I spoke on at the Tri State Conservation Grazing Workshop in North Dakota last August.
Now onto buying land that I don't want to sell. If you take 10% of the productive farmland, which I assume you will given your opinion of native grassland, be prepared to pay at least 10% more for food. Be prepared for much resistance from the landowners, because it will take a SWAT team to get any of this land that I am getting ready to hand over to the fifth generation of this family. Also be prepared to meet much resistance from the taxpayers because alot of them don't think you should have a gun much less shoot a bird with it. I don't know how many are going to want their tax dollars spent that way. It is good that you are thinking about ways to help solve a problem, just try to do some thing that can be done.
As far as the same language your are trying to macro manage several states that could raise pheasants I am trying to micro manage the little slice of paradise that I have been blessed to be the steward of.

 

[RK Special K]

fsentkilr......

Please, no derogatives. Let's all do our part to keep this joint clean. It's a fine, upstanding discussion and debate forum. I can take it though, just see no need.

On your point: As I have said previously(see above), I have heard that wheat is a good substitute for grass. So I am all ears on that issue. Haven't hunted KS much - Smith Center, Oberlin - a couple times.

I think we are essentually saying much of the same thing but dancing around the issue. Correct me if I'm wrong but hen pheasants need(or certainly prefer) "grassy stuff" - wheat, pasture, CRP, weeds - that is 18" to 24" in hieght, minimum, to "brew up" what we want in the fall. This "stuff" needs to be around from early spring to mid-summer.

Do we have some common ground to stand on?

 

[carptom1]

I have shot a lot of phez in western Kansas before CRP, where there wasn't any grass that wasn't grazed within 50 miles. There was wheat and grazed pastures however. So how can you say without ungrazed grass there would be 0 birds. The statement is assinine. I contend that properly grazed grass may actually be better than heavy overgrown CRP. The chicks move around in in easier. There are always wet areas, ect. that don't get grazed much.

I agree 100%. This has been argued a bunch on here. Pheasants go as the wheat goes in Kansas. When the wheat crop is good, with a timely harvest, the birds are good. Mix in some draws and some decent pasture, and you will get some birds.