I have read it. I see it happening every day all around me. I am glad that you want to do something about it. What you are proposing can't happen, so I suggest that you find something or think of something that can and get behind it and go with it. Best of luck and you are invited to the Wounded Warrior hunt in December.
Maybe new trespass laws and waterfowl tags for Non-Res
- Thread starter UGUIDE
- Start date
I have read it. I see it happening every day all around me. I am glad that you want to do something about it. What you are proposing can't happen, so I suggest that you find something or think of something that can and get behind it and go with it. Best of luck and you are invited to the Wounded Warrior hunt in December.
birdhunter68
New member
Howdy all......I wanted to just add my thoughts from the cheap seats....
I'm a life long birdhunter and conservationist, member of QF and PF and president of my local birddog club....so I do have some experience as a hunter. Hunting without permission is against the law (in most states) and viewed by many as unsportsmanlike behavior....But let's look at it from another angle....
When I was growing up in Nebraska in the late 70's and 80's.....I followed my dad on many hunting trips across the prairie. We rarely if ever asked permission back in those days.....as most of the land was not posted and the damn hunting lodge / pay to hunt CRP craze had not yet arrived....we hunted all over Nebraska.....near towns like Wilber, Clay Center, Red Cloud, Cambridge, Fullerton and Beatrice. Birds were plentiful....and we had many great trips with friends and family. We never had any bad experiences and always left each field as we found it.....picking up trash and closing gates.
Once CRP......came about in 85.....things started to change. For good and bad.
1. Good: as we all know.....CRP reserved millions of acres of farm land and our pheasant populations exploded across the board. I remember seeing hundreds of birds flush at the end of fields we hunted. And many of these farms were easily accessible and free to hunt!
2. Bad: Groups of wealthy hunters, businessmen and large farm operators began to either purchase or lease large tracts of land in the CRP......for their private hunting use and or to generate profit by charging hunters for access to these fields.....
Fast forward to today and we do have now? F-ing posted sings everywhere.....You can drive for miles and see nothing but posted or leased sings......or even worse.....controlled hunting area signs...
Think about the message all these signs send out......stay the heck out because your not welcome or pay ever increasing fees to walk my ground and shoot my birds.....What is the legacy we will leave to future generations of hunters......unless your wealthy or have family ground to hunt.....your shit out of luck.....
Oops.....I forgot to mention the WIHA land we all love to rant about......
Yes the walk in programs have opened up private lands to public hunting.....but we all now have maps and GPS units and use the internet to scout where the best hunting is each fall......Oh boy......I can't wait to drive 1/2 way across the country to wait in line while amateur armies glad in orange trample each WIHA tract 10x per day.......
I'm sure this will touch of much debate and even piss off some.....that's fine with me.......I have great memories of those days with my dad. Guess what.....we never had 1 farmer chase us off his land or call the law.....We were welcome to hunt these lands and often returned each year.
If all hunting is to become pay to play......count me out and good luck!
RP
I'm a life long birdhunter and conservationist, member of QF and PF and president of my local birddog club....so I do have some experience as a hunter. Hunting without permission is against the law (in most states) and viewed by many as unsportsmanlike behavior....But let's look at it from another angle....
When I was growing up in Nebraska in the late 70's and 80's.....I followed my dad on many hunting trips across the prairie. We rarely if ever asked permission back in those days.....as most of the land was not posted and the damn hunting lodge / pay to hunt CRP craze had not yet arrived....we hunted all over Nebraska.....near towns like Wilber, Clay Center, Red Cloud, Cambridge, Fullerton and Beatrice. Birds were plentiful....and we had many great trips with friends and family. We never had any bad experiences and always left each field as we found it.....picking up trash and closing gates.
Once CRP......came about in 85.....things started to change. For good and bad.
1. Good: as we all know.....CRP reserved millions of acres of farm land and our pheasant populations exploded across the board. I remember seeing hundreds of birds flush at the end of fields we hunted. And many of these farms were easily accessible and free to hunt!
2. Bad: Groups of wealthy hunters, businessmen and large farm operators began to either purchase or lease large tracts of land in the CRP......for their private hunting use and or to generate profit by charging hunters for access to these fields.....
Fast forward to today and we do have now? F-ing posted sings everywhere.....You can drive for miles and see nothing but posted or leased sings......or even worse.....controlled hunting area signs...
Think about the message all these signs send out......stay the heck out because your not welcome or pay ever increasing fees to walk my ground and shoot my birds.....What is the legacy we will leave to future generations of hunters......unless your wealthy or have family ground to hunt.....your shit out of luck.....
Oops.....I forgot to mention the WIHA land we all love to rant about......
Yes the walk in programs have opened up private lands to public hunting.....but we all now have maps and GPS units and use the internet to scout where the best hunting is each fall......Oh boy......I can't wait to drive 1/2 way across the country to wait in line while amateur armies glad in orange trample each WIHA tract 10x per day.......
I'm sure this will touch of much debate and even piss off some.....that's fine with me.......I have great memories of those days with my dad. Guess what.....we never had 1 farmer chase us off his land or call the law.....We were welcome to hunt these lands and often returned each year.
If all hunting is to become pay to play......count me out and good luck!
RP
birdhunter68
New member
Howdy all......I wanted to just add my thoughts from the cheap seats....
I'm a life long birdhunter and conservationist, member of QF and PF and president of my local birddog club....so I do have some experience as a hunter. Hunting without permission is against the law (in most states) and viewed by many as unsportsmanlike behavior....But let's look at it from another angle....
When I was growing up in Nebraska in the late 70's and 80's.....I followed my dad on many hunting trips across the prairie. We rarely if ever asked permission back in those days.....as most of the land was not posted and the damn hunting lodge / pay to hunt CRP craze had not yet arrived....we hunted all over Nebraska.....near towns like Wilber, Clay Center, Red Cloud, Cambridge, Fullerton and Beatrice. Birds were plentiful....and we had many great trips with friends and family. We never had any bad experiences and always left each field as we found it.....picking up trash and closing gates.
Once CRP......came about in 85.....things started to change. For good and bad.
1. Good: as we all know.....CRP reserved millions of acres of farm land and our pheasant populations exploded across the board. I remember seeing hundreds of birds flush at the end of fields we hunted. And many of these farms were easily accessible and free to hunt!
2. Bad: Groups of wealthy hunters, businessmen and large farm operators began to either purchase or lease large tracts of land in the CRP......for their private hunting use and or to generate profit by charging hunters for access to these fields.....
Fast forward to today and we do have now? F-ing posted sings everywhere.....You can drive for miles and see nothing but posted or leased sings......or even worse.....controlled hunting area signs...
Think about the message all these signs send out......stay the heck out because your not welcome or pay ever increasing fees to walk my ground and shoot my birds.....What is the legacy we will leave to future generations of hunters......unless your wealthy or have family ground to hunt.....your shit out of luck.....
Oops.....I forgot to mention the WIHA land we all love to rant about......
Yes the walk in programs have opened up private lands to public hunting.....but we all now have maps and GPS units and use the internet to scout where the best hunting is each fall......Oh boy......I can't wait to drive 1/2 way across the country to wait in line while amateur armies glad in orange trample each WIHA tract 10x per day.......
I'm sure this will touch of much debate and even piss off some.....that's fine with me.......I have great memories of those days with my dad. Guess what.....we never had 1 farmer chase us off his land or call the law.....We were welcome to hunt these lands and often returned each year.
If all hunting is to become pay to play......count me out and good luck!
RP
I'm a life long birdhunter and conservationist, member of QF and PF and president of my local birddog club....so I do have some experience as a hunter. Hunting without permission is against the law (in most states) and viewed by many as unsportsmanlike behavior....But let's look at it from another angle....
When I was growing up in Nebraska in the late 70's and 80's.....I followed my dad on many hunting trips across the prairie. We rarely if ever asked permission back in those days.....as most of the land was not posted and the damn hunting lodge / pay to hunt CRP craze had not yet arrived....we hunted all over Nebraska.....near towns like Wilber, Clay Center, Red Cloud, Cambridge, Fullerton and Beatrice. Birds were plentiful....and we had many great trips with friends and family. We never had any bad experiences and always left each field as we found it.....picking up trash and closing gates.
Once CRP......came about in 85.....things started to change. For good and bad.
1. Good: as we all know.....CRP reserved millions of acres of farm land and our pheasant populations exploded across the board. I remember seeing hundreds of birds flush at the end of fields we hunted. And many of these farms were easily accessible and free to hunt!
2. Bad: Groups of wealthy hunters, businessmen and large farm operators began to either purchase or lease large tracts of land in the CRP......for their private hunting use and or to generate profit by charging hunters for access to these fields.....
Fast forward to today and we do have now? F-ing posted sings everywhere.....You can drive for miles and see nothing but posted or leased sings......or even worse.....controlled hunting area signs...
Think about the message all these signs send out......stay the heck out because your not welcome or pay ever increasing fees to walk my ground and shoot my birds.....What is the legacy we will leave to future generations of hunters......unless your wealthy or have family ground to hunt.....your shit out of luck.....
Oops.....I forgot to mention the WIHA land we all love to rant about......
Yes the walk in programs have opened up private lands to public hunting.....but we all now have maps and GPS units and use the internet to scout where the best hunting is each fall......Oh boy......I can't wait to drive 1/2 way across the country to wait in line while amateur armies glad in orange trample each WIHA tract 10x per day.......
I'm sure this will touch of much debate and even piss off some.....that's fine with me.......I have great memories of those days with my dad. Guess what.....we never had 1 farmer chase us off his land or call the law.....We were welcome to hunt these lands and often returned each year.
If all hunting is to become pay to play......count me out and good luck!
RP
birdhunter68
New member
I should add that I do ask permission to hunt and encourage all to do the same....I was just trying to share my experiences from years ago and look at this topic from another angle......
I am very fortunate to have many friends with land here in Kentucky and Kansas. I show my thanks to these farmers with gifts and offering to help with chores around the farm.
We all need to think about the big picture and the future of our great sport and traditions....
The days of free hunting may be coming to an end and we all know that habitat is very dynamic and in demand for access....
RP
I am very fortunate to have many friends with land here in Kentucky and Kansas. I show my thanks to these farmers with gifts and offering to help with chores around the farm.
We all need to think about the big picture and the future of our great sport and traditions....
The days of free hunting may be coming to an end and we all know that habitat is very dynamic and in demand for access....
RP
You present a good case, I remember those days too. Since I am on the other side of this fence let me present the way I remember the change.In the late 60s it was about the way you described it. In the 70s hunting was not that great. Then the CRP era came in the 80s when the farm economy was in a crisis. More pheasants more hunters who were paying sporting goods stores, gas stations, eating establishments, bars and the state of South Dakota. But nobody wanted to pay the landowner who controls most of the access to the pheasants. The combination of tough economic times and increased demand for hunting, well supply and demand set in and it is still there. Instead of having land and some pheasants that happen to be on that land, now I take land out of production and spend money to make sure that the pheasants have the best chance I can give them. I am hoping that if I spend $5000 a year that it will return more than that in hunting revenue. If it doesn't I will have to quit doing that and back to the 70s we go. With the pressure on land to produce something the pheasants have to be profitable or it will have to produce a different product. I probably have lost money by pay hunting instead of ditch to ditch corn and beans. I don't blame you for your position please don't blame me for mine.
carptom1
Well-known member
This is the part that most don't seem to get. The farmer where I hunt is the same way. He spends thousands on fuel, seed and effort to put in some food plots in his land. That doesn't even take into account the grass he doesn't hay, and the other areas he leaves untouched for birds to flourish in. It takes a lot of time, effort and money on his part. That makes for outstanding hunting on his property and others that surround it. If it wouldn't be for you guys that do that up there, there wouldn't have been many birds there last year. All you have to do is look at Kansas to see what happens in a bad year. For every farm in kansas with good pheasant habitat, there is a hundred in South Dakota. These farms are few and far between here. In a bad drought year, there were not many birds anywhere. The farms like yours are good for the overall hunting in SD. What is the alternative? Great free hunting, on farms with tons of birds? Probably not going to happen. There is plenty of public hunting in SD, the problem is it gets stressed hard by too many hunters. I too grew up in the 60's. When I was a kid we hunted western kansas when there were no fences or posted signs. We too were respectfull of the land and hunted where we wanted with no issues. Hunters need to take partial responsibility for this change. Tresspassing, poaching, and being disrespectfull of property also brought on some of these changes. We all wish it was like the good old days, but those aren't coming back. I have a great situation in SD, and don't mind helping my guy defer some of his costs while I enjoy a great hunt.
fsentkilr
Active member
Quote from Carptom "Tresspassing, poaching, and being disrespectfull of property also brought on some of these changes. We all wish it was like the good old days, but those aren't coming back. I have a great situation in SD, and don't mind helping my guy defer some of his costs while I enjoy a great hunt. "
Exactly, and the attitude of some on here and some hunters in general, towards private property rights don't help the view of hunters by landowners either. I can't believe how so many feel they "deserve" to take private property so they can hunt.
Exactly, and the attitude of some on here and some hunters in general, towards private property rights don't help the view of hunters by landowners either. I can't believe how so many feel they "deserve" to take private property so they can hunt.
BirdChaser501
New member
I'm a young bird hunter from the south and was planning on making a trip to SD early in the season. I was planning on taking my chances on public land, but was wondering what was a normal price that farmers charge hunters to hunt on their land. Is it affordable for one or two guys or do you need a group to afford the cost?
Early season is higher than late season. It depends on whether you want to just hunt or a place with lodging and cooking facilities. Also there is a difference between places. Places that have the best hunting book up early with repeat customers. Those places will cost more. Places with less success will be cheaper and easier to get a booking. Whether it is affordable, that is in the eye of the beholder. If you drive around looking for a place while you are burning $4 gas and add a motel and resurant to that compared to a place that you know you have a place to hunt and stay do your own cooking if you want to, I don't know which is the most expensive.
I did not address the two hunter part of the question. Two hunters disturb as much cover as ten. You can only hunt a piece of cover so many times in a season. So if two hunters go through it instead of eight that cuts the revenue down to 25%. So a group is more desireable and will open more doors for you.
It's really sad that Pheasant hunting has come to what it is today. For a "quality" Hunt you're going to have to pay for it. Everyone's opinion on what a quality hunt is will differ. To some hunting public land from 10 AM to sunset and shooting two or three birds for their group is a quality hunt. For others hunting private land and limiting out after two or three hours of hunting with their group is a quality hunt.
It really comes down to the old saying you get what you pay for. Our group pays a pretty large sum to the farmer but I know exactly the amount of cover and birds that I am going to see each year. It is almost a guarantee. For our group as I've stated before driving 12 hours to South Dakota and seeing a handful of pheasants is just not worth it for Us. By no means do we have to limit out to have a great time. However, we do enjoy seeing lots of pheasants, Seeing good dog work And harvesting some birds as a bonus.
If I was just looking to walk all day and have the opportunity of shooting a couple birds there's no reason for me to go to South Dakota. I can do that here in Illinois. The cover here is terrible and the birds are very scarce. But, if I hunted all day I could probably get a bird or two.
To that end, we go to South Dakota to see hundreds of birds and have the opportunity to get our limit each day. It's a very unique experience on private land but it is also a very costly experience.
First time hunters to South Dakota who will hunt on public land and are hopeful of seeing massive amount of birds I believe will be in for a huge disappointment.
Bob
It really comes down to the old saying you get what you pay for. Our group pays a pretty large sum to the farmer but I know exactly the amount of cover and birds that I am going to see each year. It is almost a guarantee. For our group as I've stated before driving 12 hours to South Dakota and seeing a handful of pheasants is just not worth it for Us. By no means do we have to limit out to have a great time. However, we do enjoy seeing lots of pheasants, Seeing good dog work And harvesting some birds as a bonus.
If I was just looking to walk all day and have the opportunity of shooting a couple birds there's no reason for me to go to South Dakota. I can do that here in Illinois. The cover here is terrible and the birds are very scarce. But, if I hunted all day I could probably get a bird or two.
To that end, we go to South Dakota to see hundreds of birds and have the opportunity to get our limit each day. It's a very unique experience on private land but it is also a very costly experience.
First time hunters to South Dakota who will hunt on public land and are hopeful of seeing massive amount of birds I believe will be in for a huge disappointment.
Bob
onpoint
Active member
You got that right. :thumbsup:
People thinking just the words South Dakota will make it rain pheasants are in for a big time disappointment. You will work your butt off to get just a couple birds. Anybody that tells you different is just flat out pumping sunshine up your "Hinder'
BirdChaser501
New member
I am one of those hunters that doesn't mind walking all day and shooting at a couple of birds. As long as there's good scenary and the dogs are working hard I'll have a good time. With that being said I wouldn't complain to limitting out a day or two on my trip. Can someone give me a ballpark figure that farmers charge?
Some will have better information than I will. But my experience is $150 on the low-end $300 per day on the high end.
BirdChaser501
New member
Is this per gun or per group?
BirdChaser501
New member
Thanks for the info. I think I will be sticking to public land for this year lol.
hockybob is right
In 2011 8 of us came to SD from PA for the first time for three days of hunting, dreaming of lots of birds. We hunted public land, hard and only managed appx 4 birds and a few misses. We saw lots of birds prior to 10 am and on private land, they were everwhere flying, roosting, running, standing on the roads etc. We would even see them crossing the road on the way to the public land heading to the private land ( seriously ). We got tired and disapointed. take lots of dogs its wide open country. Someone suggested a plat book of the county that you are hunting in i guessit has the landowners and their phone numbers in it, sounds like a good idea as finding a landowner is more difficult than finding a rooster.
we has our luck in the cattail sloughs. Treat it as a vacation and you will have a blast killing isnt everything just a lot of fun. Were going again this year for a week, keeping expectations low however. Good luck.
In 2011 8 of us came to SD from PA for the first time for three days of hunting, dreaming of lots of birds. We hunted public land, hard and only managed appx 4 birds and a few misses. We saw lots of birds prior to 10 am and on private land, they were everwhere flying, roosting, running, standing on the roads etc. We would even see them crossing the road on the way to the public land heading to the private land ( seriously ). We got tired and disapointed. take lots of dogs its wide open country. Someone suggested a plat book of the county that you are hunting in i guessit has the landowners and their phone numbers in it, sounds like a good idea as finding a landowner is more difficult than finding a rooster.
we has our luck in the cattail sloughs. Treat it as a vacation and you will have a blast killing isnt everything just a lot of fun. Were going again this year for a week, keeping expectations low however. Good luck.
moellermd
Super Moderator
Find some public group in SW MN or NW IA and you can do that for free. I know because I have.
RK Special K
New member
haymaker.......
I won't be "bored" until pheasant habitat and pheasasnt numbers are restored to the levels of at least the 50's and 60's.
When "million+ bird harvests" in the "western states" becomes again, yawn, routine and almost a virtual certainty - year after year after year........this WILL be "boring". But it will be the "good" kind of boring.
fsentkilr........
You seem to imply that "taking private property" is simply "stealing" property from landowners with no payment. That's NOT how it works.
Here's how it works:
A VAST public need or benefit is determined to be gained by PURCHASING private property for an overwhelmingly worthwhile public cause.
You seem to "deserve" the right to use and benefit by public facilities including roads, freeways, damns, National Parks, wetlands, etc. But you PAID for it with your tax dollars - so you DO deserve it.
Private funding of habitat projects is simply not going to stop the constant erosion of habitat. It's too expensive relative to what can be earned from it. Conservation habitat is a public need but there is VERY little private incentive to provide for it. Private interests will gravitate towards the highest paying activities on their property that provide the fastest return. Of course, there are always exceptions. I own 320 acres in ND and provide habitat exclusively on it. But me, you, and a thousand other landowners won't help the "grand scheme of things" in a vast landscape of millions of other landowners who are MUCH more interested in maximizing profits.
Good pheasant habitat will eventually shrink down to a point where only the highest paying, wealthy customers will offer enough private incentive to profitably provide for it. Just like wild quail hunting in Georgia and Alabama. Real EXCLUSIVE. $1,200+ per day. If the landowner can't get that kind of money, then they might just as well farm it or develop it. Pheasant hunting will be relegated to the "playground" of the wealthy. The top 5% income earners who, of course, enjoy $200 bottles of wine and $50 cigars after a gentlemans hunt for the " last true wild roosters". And this will correspond with the 95% drop in wild bird #'s - and hunters.
The above scenario is already well underway. The CRP program is the only thing stopping it from becoming a full-blown stampede.
Case in point: If we depended on private landowners to protect wetlands, it would rapidly disappear. There is little profit motive for individual landowners to provide this public benefit - so its use is restricted for public benefit. However, there is great private incentive to fill it, drain it, farm it, and develop it.
Again, most things are best left to private enterprise. But with a few things, it just doesn't work.
I won't be "bored" until pheasant habitat and pheasasnt numbers are restored to the levels of at least the 50's and 60's.
When "million+ bird harvests" in the "western states" becomes again, yawn, routine and almost a virtual certainty - year after year after year........this WILL be "boring". But it will be the "good" kind of boring.
fsentkilr........
You seem to imply that "taking private property" is simply "stealing" property from landowners with no payment. That's NOT how it works.
Here's how it works:
A VAST public need or benefit is determined to be gained by PURCHASING private property for an overwhelmingly worthwhile public cause.
You seem to "deserve" the right to use and benefit by public facilities including roads, freeways, damns, National Parks, wetlands, etc. But you PAID for it with your tax dollars - so you DO deserve it.
Private funding of habitat projects is simply not going to stop the constant erosion of habitat. It's too expensive relative to what can be earned from it. Conservation habitat is a public need but there is VERY little private incentive to provide for it. Private interests will gravitate towards the highest paying activities on their property that provide the fastest return. Of course, there are always exceptions. I own 320 acres in ND and provide habitat exclusively on it. But me, you, and a thousand other landowners won't help the "grand scheme of things" in a vast landscape of millions of other landowners who are MUCH more interested in maximizing profits.
Good pheasant habitat will eventually shrink down to a point where only the highest paying, wealthy customers will offer enough private incentive to profitably provide for it. Just like wild quail hunting in Georgia and Alabama. Real EXCLUSIVE. $1,200+ per day. If the landowner can't get that kind of money, then they might just as well farm it or develop it. Pheasant hunting will be relegated to the "playground" of the wealthy. The top 5% income earners who, of course, enjoy $200 bottles of wine and $50 cigars after a gentlemans hunt for the " last true wild roosters". And this will correspond with the 95% drop in wild bird #'s - and hunters.
The above scenario is already well underway. The CRP program is the only thing stopping it from becoming a full-blown stampede.
Case in point: If we depended on private landowners to protect wetlands, it would rapidly disappear. There is little profit motive for individual landowners to provide this public benefit - so its use is restricted for public benefit. However, there is great private incentive to fill it, drain it, farm it, and develop it.
Again, most things are best left to private enterprise. But with a few things, it just doesn't work.