The great debate!

[FCSpringer]

Try driving around Woodbury, Minn., where my folks live. Every family there has a cookie-cutter yellow lab that looks like a barrel and lives behind the most unnecessary invisible fence ever installed.

My uncle, on the other hand, had a springer (best breeding, top schools, no expense spared) that could not stand a day in the field hunting grouse or pheasants. She would be fragile, psychotic and hunted for herself. My uncle actually borrowed my lab, Daisy, when he would go pheasant hunting.

Daisy (aka the Bush Pig), being the consummate professional that she is, obliged and they filled their limit. I think the second time that happened my uncle was contemplating trying to paint Ginny black and return her instead of my beloved Pig.

FC, we all have horror stories (with dogs other than the ones we own )

PS: My uncle has a black lab girl on order as I write this.

No sir my stories come from animals I have personaly dealt with. Come on up this fall.:thumbsup:

 

[Daisybuck]

I'm already packed. Can I bring my flabradors? See it doesn't take much for me to change allegiances, just the promise of some good hunting! Can I hunt your stuff while you are out winning blue ribbons?

Actually, I would love to hunt with any or all the guys on this thread. They all seem to be good guys I could share a field with.

This is honorable company. :thumbsup:

 

[keskam]

Here is a video of some of my labs,,, there aint a chunky butt in the bunch


http://www.onetruemedia.com/shared?...kin_id=701&utm_source=otm&utm_medium=text_url

 

[SetterNut]

This is what gets me going with pointing dogs. Seeing your young dog totally fixed on a bird.

 

[morrismike]

This is what gets me going with pointing dogs. Seeing your young dog totally fixed on a bird.

What happens if the pheasant walks/runs off? Not to be a smart alec or anything but what is the reason the pointer trials use quail instead of pheasants?

 

[Gatzby]

This is what gets me going with pointing dogs. Seeing your young dog totally fixed on a bird.

I must say WOW! That is an awesome looking dog.

Steve

 

[FCSpringer]

I'm already packed. Can I bring my flabradors? See it doesn't take much for me to change allegiances, just the promise of some good hunting! Can I hunt your stuff while you are out winning blue ribbons?

Actually, I would love to hunt with any or all the guys on this thread. They all seem to be good guys I could share a field with.

This is honorable company. :thumbsup:

Yes You can bring The flabradores. But you have to wait till Nov. Early season can suck any way. Should be some good hunting around here. I would go earlier, but will just keep the K9's focused till then. And weekends will be all tied up till after then. NAC starts Nov 12th. So after that 5 days is done, I'm in. I don't mind converting a person from the dark sides from time to time.
:cheers:

 

[quail hound]

I refuse to spoil a good hunting dog.

Cooper just back from the vet. Stitches from brab wire. He was a bit groggy.

Oh man I love this pic, kind of reminds me of a dog I know.:thumbsup:

 

[SetterNut]

What happens if the pheasant walks/runs off? Not to be a smart alec or anything but what is the reason the pointer trials use quail instead of pheasants?

Pheasants take a little while for them to learn to handle. The one's that don't run are toast, and are mostly shot after the first couple of weeks of the season. But after some exposure to runners, smart dogs learn what is going on.

Indy only got to hunt at the end of the season and I was able to shoot a couple of roosters over him. The key with a young pointing dog is to not shooting anything that is not solidly pointed. That means you are going to have some birds that you are not going to be able to pull the trigger on. But they learn to relocate down wind of the rooster and how far to stand off them.

I feel that the best pointing dogss on pheasants do not trail the bird, they swing out down wind and locate solid body scent. It took my 3 year old setter a till the end of his second season to work that out. Now he points on 1st scent, if I can't flush the bird I relocate him. He will now swing out down wind and the next point generally results in a held bird. I had one last season out in NW KS that he pointed at 325 yards in a huge wheat stubble field, that I was able to flush and shoot. That is the longest range bird he has had. But it was a bad year for bird numbers and they had been heavily hunted in that area (WIHA), and the birds were running like crazy.

Do you have some birds that flush before you get there, yes. But you get some birds that would have run off if the dog is not ranging out.

But I have no doubt that with young flushing dogs you will get more shots than with a young pointing dog on pheasants.

And thanks for the nice comment on Indy, I really like him. He is coming along really well for a year old.

They use quail in trials because they are low cost and easy to buy. They are also the bird that has traditionally been hunted with pointing dog.

 

[jeffstally]

Try driving around Woodbury, Minn., where my folks live. Every family there has a cookie-cutter yellow lab that looks like a barrel and lives behind the most unnecessary invisible fence ever installed.

My uncle, on the other hand, had a springer (best breeding, top schools, no expense spared) that could not stand a day in the field hunting grouse or pheasants. She would be fragile, psychotic and hunted for herself. My uncle actually borrowed my lab, Daisy, when he would go pheasant hunting.

Daisy (aka the Bush Pig), being the consummate professional that she is, obliged and they filled their limit. I think the second time that happened my uncle was contemplating trying to paint Ginny black and return her instead of my beloved Pig.

FC, we all have horror stories (with dogs other than the ones we own )

PS: My uncle has a black lab girl on order as I write this.

I agree. There can be bad dogs in any breed. I gave away a springer a year and a half ago whose nose was horrible. He couldn't smell a bird right under his chin. My cousin(he is a good dog trainer) has a lab that is so absolutely worthless in the field I don't think he could find a rooster in his own crate. The Irish Setter world certainly has some unworthy field dogs out there.

All you can do is minimize your chances of a dud by buying from a reputable breeder willing to stand behind his product.

I might someday own a lab for waterfowling, you never know. The main reason I like springers is because I like small dogs. I would rather have a dog in the 30s than the 50s or 60 lb range myself because I can fit more dog power in the truck. Just personal preference.

 

[FCSpringer]

I think Jeff hit the nail on the head. Bird finders for the greater most part come from bird finders. Give away dogs come from cheap or free parents.:thumbsup: If every one would stick to truely improving a breed the world would be a better place.:thumbsup:

 

[SetterNut]

I think Jeff hit the nail on the head. Bird finders for the greater most part come from bird finders. Give away dogs come from cheap or free parents.:thumbsup: If every one would stick to truely improving a breed the world would be a better place.:thumbsup:

+1 That is the way breeds continue to improve

 

[Toad]

Setternut, that Indy is a great looking dog. That point you just posted looks like a million bucks!

@ MorrisMike, over time, pointy dogs will learn from their successes and failures how to hold a pheasant for the gunner. Like Steve said... Also, your less polished "meat dog" types will relocate on running birds on their own. I think it's probably considered a foul for a dog to do that in competition, but my dogs do it all the time on their own and I prefer a dog that relocates on its own. To each their own...

I wish I could make fun of fat labradors, but Daisy and I are both off our diets and have not been getting much exercise in the ridiculous heat. Time for some swimming, for the both of us!

@FCSpringer, every time you post that pic of your dog's water entry it makes me think I could be a spaniel guy someday...

 

[FCSpringer]

Setternut
Do you have some birds that flush before you get there, yes.

Some roosters are just not going to be got some days. By any breed! The way they pull off their escape, their feathers were safe the whole time. More power to them!:thumbsup:

What? birds get away?. Never heard of this. Oh thats right, I used to own a pointer as well.

 

[SetterNut]

Thanks Toad, if you can't tell I am kind of proud of him

Birds get away from all types of hunting styles and dogs. They run, flush wild, of any other trick to survive.
Where I hunt we have some pheasants, but more quail. Bw quail are a blast to hunt with a pointing dog. The added area the greater range of pointing dog provides increases the number of coveys the dog finds.

The bigger the area the birds are spread out in the greater the benefit of a wider running dog. But that range only helps if the pointing dog is steady on it's birds. Otherwise you just have an out of control out of range flushing dog.

Being steady for a pointing dog is critical just like being in range for a flushing dog.

 

[BritChaser]

Can't imagine hunting the open country of the Kansas Great Plains with anything other than a pointing breed that ranges out to find the birds for you.

 

[SetterNut]

Can't imagine hunting the open country of the Kansas Great Plains with anything other than a pointing breed that ranges out to find the birds for you.

It has it's advantages. But lots of guys have success with the flushing dogs.
But I for one am really hooked on the pointing dogs.

 

[carptom1]

I have hunted kansas for many years with Labs and Pointers. My dad raised english pointers and my neighbor is a big field trial guy with english pointers. After having more than adequate experience with both pointers and flushers on the Kansas prarie over the last 35 yrs or so, and in South Dakota and Iowa for the last 20 or so, I will say that I have drawn these observations:

1. in Kansas the way they have cut the wheat the last 15 years or so, stubble fields are tough on a flusher. I do miss hunting the stubble. We do shoot a bird or two out of it, but it is far better suited to a rangy pointer. That wasn't always the case. Back awhile when they would cut them high and leave them fallow a year and filled with sunflower stalks head high, I would probably take my Lab. I rember a particular one around Logan Kansas next to a cemetary we hunted when I was a teenager. Ah I miss those fields. Never seem to see many like that anymore.

2. Crp. If it is the knee high crap that is so prevalent nowdays in Kansas because of low rainfall, I would prefer a pointer that ranges. If you find some waist high stuff where the birds will try to wait you out, I will take a Lab all day long. I was in a field last year in December up in South Dakota that was waist deep. The season was nearly over and the birds were spooky until we reached this field. My dog put up pheasants that he had to root out of the thick grass. The did not want to fly. Fun stuff.

3. Big grassland. Pointer no real discussion needed.

4. Quail, Prarie Chickens, again pointers. This is the one thing I miss about not having a ponter is a good quail hunt. I used to have great property to hunt in southeast kansas. It was a struggle to make a hunt last 4 hrs or so. We got down to not hunting singles, and I even shot an old .410 to add a little handicap. 8-10 covey days were the norm. Took longer to drive down and back than it did to shoot a limit. I do miss those hunts.

5. South dakota cattails. Not even close. There is something about watching that black lab tearing through those cattails with that crazed look on his face, pieces of cattail hanging from his mouth, that really gets me going. This one i have now is built so solid he is really in his element there. I swear one of you guys might find me frozen solid up there some december. Watching my buddies Lab work up there many years ago is why I originally got one.

6. Milo, corn, or other crop. I have had good luck with both breeds. Kind of depends on how dirty the field is. If it is un cut, but pretty clean, I prefer a lab pushing birds up. If it is cut with tumbulweeds and other stuff, I think the pointers may have an edge.

7. Retrieving, hunting dead. Retrievers. I am sure some of you guys have pointers that retrieve well. I used to have good retrieving english pointers, but not like a good retrieving breed. It is what they do. I have watched good retrievers that just flat out get it. My dog will not be denied a retrieve. His bird drive is very extreme. He doesn't have anytime when he isn't all about business. Even throwing a ball in the front yard he goes full tilt psycho. It borders on annoying..... but I love it.

I think it boils down to what we have been exposed to while hunting. I always had pointers that were closer workers, inside of 100 yards, my experience with far rangers were always out of control bird busters. I would love to hunt with a far ranger someday, I think it would be cool to watch. I think alot of peoples experience with flushing labs, were fat bootlickers that would meander out and halfway pick up a bird. They were out of gas after the first field, and done by noon. Some of us on here have an exception to that, and until you see it you won't believe it either. I think it does boil down to the fact that there is many ways to skin a cat. As the song says " love the one your with". I just appreciate the time I get to share with others on here that are as obsessed with hunting as I can be.

Ps. Steve I love seeing pictures of your setters. They are really something to be proud of. There is something Regal in the way they point. They almost have an arrogant pose. Hey I don't mind arrogant if you are good at what you do.

 

[jeffstally]

Nice post carptom1. I would agree with most everything you said.

 

[SetterNut]

Carptom, I think you covered it pretty well. Both types of dogs have their strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks for the kind words on Indy. You can tell a lot about where the bird is and how sure the dog is about it being there, based on how they point. In that picture Indy is well off the pigeon maybe 25 yards, and that is why he is so tall. If he is close to one, he will be lower generally.


Man bird season can't get here soon enough.