John Singer
Well-known member
Did you intend this irony?
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Wow...
- Thread starter Labs
- Start date
Did you intend this irony?
I have it on good authority that I'm a dullard, a doofus, and a "bustard" (isn't that some kind of bird). So no, probably not. What is "irony"? I thought that was what Matt Dillon packed on his hip.
You dug out an almost 2 week old post (focused more on the topic of mass shootings, not schools per se) in an attempt to find a nit to pick, so from here it appears that you have some kind of an agenda. Not to mention a bit of a chip on your shoulder. I'm guessing that you have some personal experiences that you'd like to share here. If that's it - please, get it off your chest. This the perfect place to do it.
You dug out an almost 2 week old post (focused more on the topic of mass shootings, not schools per se) in an attempt to find a nit to pick, so from here it appears that you have some kind of an agenda. Not to mention a bit of a chip on your shoulder. I'm guessing that you have some personal experiences that you'd like to share here. If that's it - please, get it off your chest. This the perfect place to do it.
John Singer
Well-known member
No. You misrepresented what I did.
You stated that teachers in Israel are armed and can shoot you dead.
I pointed out that it is not true. It is a myth based on an internet meme.
You then stated that I was deflecting.
I then asked if you intended to be ironic.
Lighten up, Francis.
Goosemaster
Well-known member
I agree. I lost 15 rooster last season to crippled status. Most with steel.
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
I haven't lost 15 roosters in the last 5 years. That's terrible.
Munster927
Well-known member
I for one would prefer not to live in a country where I only felt like my kids were safe at school because their teachers had guns, fences, gates and armed security guards.
If that's how we feel the need to protect our kids maybe we should think about preventing guns from getting into schools.
Oh that's right....
Francis? What do you have against mules?
I am not misrepresenting the thrust of your efforts here. If you have no axe to grind, why on earth did you dig back to 22 Feb (if I said a couple of weeks, you'd feel compelled to point out my math error) to unearth a nit to pick? Who does that - frustrated mall cop? I'm honored with the level of attention and effort, just trying to figure out how I came to merit your labors. After all, I did not come into your employers shop with an unclean shotgun or try to buy a box of boolits the day before deer season opens.
And FWIW, some Israeli teachers are armed, depending on location. Pretty much all of them are experienced vets. And there are guns in every building. You go after school kids in Israel, you get dead, in short order. That's a good plan, where I come from. None of which was the primary topic at hand in the first place.
Which was - mass shootings, and (why do they generally occur in no-guns-here areas? Is there something you'd like to say about the actual issue?
Also, your socks don't match.
(HAH - had to look, didn't you).
Problem is, it is a LOT easier to keep the good people from bringing them in, than the bad guys - they don't care a lick about your no-guns-here rules. Rather, they take advantage of them, at the expense of some very good people. Not just schools, either. Some of our most secure government installations have experienced that, at huge human cost.
John Singer
Well-known member
I switched to nontoxic shot several years ago for all of my hunting.
I have found bismuth to be more effective as a nontoxic shot for pheasants.
For waterfowl, steel works very good.
Steel is also effective for ruffed grouse, woodcock, sharptail grouse, rabbits, and prairie chickens.
Pheasants have a nasty habit of running off when wounded. Bismuth tends to anchor them a little better than steel.
A theory. The bigger the bird, the harder it falls. Weight/mass of geese doesn't need slow, rapidly decelerating lighter shot loads and that describes most non-tox loads.
I've shot geese with lead, Hevi-Metal, Hevi-Shot, Bismuth and tungsten/polymer. Only tungsten/polymer is, to me at least, indistinguishable in downrange results (and maybe even better) than lead.
Smaller birds might show better results with steel. Some species (dove some to mind) might even suffer some degree of toxicity where a lot of lead is shot near their grit-gathering sites. But politics, not science, will most likely ultimately decide this issue for us all.
15–
I thought you had great labs that didn’t even have to be trained??? Just put on a lot of birds! If that’s your theory your should be getting great on cripples
Also you’ve told use how you only use cheap shell—-that are just great!!
Not Sorry
Goosemaster
Well-known member
Shooting steel all the time produces winged birds. Good lead loads were hard to find. The dog i have now,doesn't like chasing wounded birds unless she can see them. But, she retrieves to hand, and has very little training. She flushes a lot of birds, and doesn't miss to many.15–
I thought you had great labs that didn’t even have to be trained??? Just put on a lot of birds! If that’s your theory your should be getting great on cripples
Also you’ve told use how you only use cheap shell—-that are just great!!
Not Sorry
I smell a business opportunity. Non-tox (steel, mostly, due to cost considerations) will be mandated - happening incrementally now. I've heard those pheasants can be tenacious of live and can run like a race horse. Dog breeding has not kept pace.
Notion is to cross Labs, GSPs and if we get brave enough, EPs with greyhounds. The result will be a dog that can win a footrace with pheasants.
Over time, we may be able to abandon actual shooting - collect a limit without firing a shot. Good dog!
Collecting start up capital now. PM for the correct address if you want in on this rare opportunity. Accepting BitCoin only.
Notion is to cross Labs, GSPs and if we get brave enough, EPs with greyhounds. The result will be a dog that can win a footrace with pheasants.
Over time, we may be able to abandon actual shooting - collect a limit without firing a shot. Good dog!
Collecting start up capital now. PM for the correct address if you want in on this rare opportunity. Accepting BitCoin only.
Chestle
Well-known member
Steel. (IMO, of course)
1. To quote Robert Ruark, use enough gun. A 12 ga will throw (in general) a better pattern with heavy (ounces) loads of steel (or lead for that matter). You get the advantage of a shorter shot column for a given weight of shot. The heavier loads have more pellets per load. If you are "on", more pellets will hit the bird delivering more energy. This is a good thing. So to me, if I have to use steel, I'll probably carry my 12 over my 20. I don't have a 16 and don't know what steel loads are available for one. But I'd carry a 16 over a 20 if those were my two choices.
2. On the topic of energy, larger shot delivers more energy at high percentage range. High speed large shot deliver more energy than slow speed large shot. Speed can blow a pattern though, so you have to visit the pattern board. I wouldn't use steel 4 on pheasant period. I'm in the steel 2 camp for pheasant along with Tom Roster.
3. Open up your choke. I think everybody realizes now that steel generally patterns tighter than lead. Use a pattern board and figure out which load gives the pattern you desire in the shotgun you are going to carry.
4. Pick your shots.The trick (key?) to shooting a high percentage is taking shots you know you can make. Give that 50 yard straight away bird a pass; take the 35 yard left to right crosser. Sometimes it's tough to pass on a low probability shot when you are not seeing many birds. Still, IMO, that's better than a cripple that flies off never to be seen again. Also, if you watch and see where a bird you didn't shoot at lands, often times you can go round him up. Particularly if you have a good dog.
5. If you can, hunt with a dog that knows the game and works close. As has been said here, follow the dog and watch the dog. When the dog gets birdy, be ready.
As always, Your Mileage May Vary and I'm sure there are folks that would disagree. These are just the things that work for me when I have to use steel.
1. To quote Robert Ruark, use enough gun. A 12 ga will throw (in general) a better pattern with heavy (ounces) loads of steel (or lead for that matter). You get the advantage of a shorter shot column for a given weight of shot. The heavier loads have more pellets per load. If you are "on", more pellets will hit the bird delivering more energy. This is a good thing. So to me, if I have to use steel, I'll probably carry my 12 over my 20. I don't have a 16 and don't know what steel loads are available for one. But I'd carry a 16 over a 20 if those were my two choices.
2. On the topic of energy, larger shot delivers more energy at high percentage range. High speed large shot deliver more energy than slow speed large shot. Speed can blow a pattern though, so you have to visit the pattern board. I wouldn't use steel 4 on pheasant period. I'm in the steel 2 camp for pheasant along with Tom Roster.
3. Open up your choke. I think everybody realizes now that steel generally patterns tighter than lead. Use a pattern board and figure out which load gives the pattern you desire in the shotgun you are going to carry.
4. Pick your shots.The trick (key?) to shooting a high percentage is taking shots you know you can make. Give that 50 yard straight away bird a pass; take the 35 yard left to right crosser. Sometimes it's tough to pass on a low probability shot when you are not seeing many birds. Still, IMO, that's better than a cripple that flies off never to be seen again. Also, if you watch and see where a bird you didn't shoot at lands, often times you can go round him up. Particularly if you have a good dog.
5. If you can, hunt with a dog that knows the game and works close. As has been said here, follow the dog and watch the dog. When the dog gets birdy, be ready.
As always, Your Mileage May Vary and I'm sure there are folks that would disagree. These are just the things that work for me when I have to use steel.
gimruis
Well-known member
Do hunters normally take shots at roosters that are 50 yards away? That's WAY too far for me, regardless of load. Even 35 is a stretch. I wouldn't even raise my gun at a bird that got up at 50 yards.
Same here, only problem being that I am a terrible judge of distance. Especially when the back drop is blue sky (and if it isn't - why are you pulling the trigger in the first place)? Any proven technique for overcoming that particular inadequacy?
I shoot a lot of sporting clays. Good fun but I think it exacerbates the problem because those little round orange "pheasants" break much more easily than a pheasant does. You can break those things at astounding ranges. Nice party trick but it can mess with your mental wiring on practical limits afield, especially if you are weak of mind to begin with (admitting nothing here, though).
Goosemaster
Well-known member
That's right, its those longish shots with cheap steel that produce winged birds. Its hard to pass on those because I always use lead magnums.
John Singer
Well-known member
Did you not, in an earlier post state, that you lost 15 roosters last year, and you blamed steel?
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kick them up
Active member
If you are looking for target shotguns loads try Elite Shotguns in PA, or Rogers Sporting good in Liberty Mo.
BrownDogsCan2
Well-known member
Well don’t buy cheap steel or steel that doesn’t pattern. Find one you like and stick with it. Shoot a large enough shot and stick inside 40 yds. #2 or 3s clobber****s them. As dead as any lead loads I shoot