Wind Turbines

RuttCrazed said:
http://www.taxpayersunitedofamerica...d-turbine-promotion-as-a-scam-and-stealth-tax

Just sayin'
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Jim Tobin is talking about one turbine against an entire coal burning plant. If turbines were all only thirty percent efficient, there wouldn't be any turbines.... period.There would be some turbines in an entire wind farm only operating at thirty percent, but if the rest are running over 90%, kinda makes up for it.

I do appluad Tobin for looking out for the tax payer

Operating efficiency for the last three wind farms I've worked at.

92%

96%

98%

Just Sayin !
 
Fred74 said:
Jim Tobin is talking about one turbine against an entire coal burning plant. If turbines were all only thirty percent efficient, there wouldn't be any turbines.... period.There would be some turbines in an entire wind farm only operating at thirty percent, but if the rest are running over 90%, kinda makes up for it.

I do appluad Tobin for looking out for the tax payer

Operating efficiency for the last three wind farms I've worked at.

92%

96%

98%

Just Sayin !
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Still destroy prairie chicken habitat, kill migrating birds, and look like s*&T. i realize its an industry that puts money in your pocket, but so does strip mining, plowing up wetlands, and farming ditch to ditch. i'm not even against wind farms, just not in prairie chicken country, which seems to be where they want to build. Seem to be fairly compatible with quail and pheasants. Might even suck in a few hawks and owls and minimize depredation. Might work a bunch of places, Netherlands is almost power nuetral due to wind farms from towers at sea! But I sure would like to think in our enlightened state, we could spare some corner of the world along with it's endangered wildlife.
 
Thinking you guys are looking at two different efficiencies. Looks like Betz is refering to what can be taken from the wind. 92-98% I am guessing is the efficiency that the motor produces electricity. Either way, they take away a landscape plus much more.
 
hunter94 said:
i suppose the Arabs own these too? :eek:
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Zilkha Renewable Energy Company (now Horizon Wind Energy.

Selim Zilkha was born in Bagdad in 1927. He grew up in Lebanon and then in Egypt. His family emigrated to the US in 1941. He graduated with a BA from Williams College.

In 1982 Selim founded Zilkha Energy Company, an oil and gas exploration company which by the time it was sold in 1998 had become the largest acreage owner on the shelf in the Gulf of Mexico. He subsequently founded Zilkha Renewable Energy Company (now Horizon Wind Energy) which when it was sold to Energias de Portugal in 2007 was the second largest wind developer in the United States.
 
oldandnew said:
Still destroy prairie chicken habitat, kill migrating birds, and look like s*&T. i realize its an industry that puts money in your pocket, but so does strip mining, plowing up wetlands, and farming ditch to ditch. i'm not even against wind farms, just not in prairie chicken country, which seems to be where they want to build. Seem to be fairly compatible with quail and pheasants. Might even suck in a few hawks and owls and minimize depredation. Might work a bunch of places, Netherlands is almost power nuetral due to wind farms from towers at sea! But I sure would like to think in our enlightened state, we could spare some corner of the world along with it's endangered wildlife.
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I think the prairie chicken was probably on the decline before wind turbines came along. I think we can just blame man and money for all of our problems. Generally one turbine, service road included takes up less than one acre of land. They do kill a few raptors, birds, bats and migrating birds. It's kind of a stretch to compare them to strip mine, plowing wetlands etc.

That corner of the earth you're talking about, is up to you and I to save. That's why I'm a member of PF !
 
RuttCrazed said:
BS!

Are you familiar with Betz' Law?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz'_law

http://www.otherpower.com/bottom_line.shtml

http://www.ftexploring.com/energy/wind-enrgy.html

You can try all you want, but you cannot defy the Laws of Physics!

Rut
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You probably think you got me on this one..... You didn't


You have totally misinterpreted the Betz Law.


The Betz law, also refered to as the Betz limit refers to the amount of kinetic energy extracted from the wind coming into the rotor, it has absolutely nothing to due with the power output of the turbine !

The physics is absolutely correct at 59.3 %

In order to catch 100%, the rotors swept area would have to be solid, a one piece rotor with no blades.


if you had a solid one piece rotor, the wind would more than likely push the whole turbine over.

The wind needs to cirulate over the blades to create lift so the rotor can spin, enabling the gearbox and generator to turn, in turn creating the electricity.
 
Fred74 said:
I think the prairie chicken was probably on the decline before wind turbines came along. I think we can just blame man and money for all of our problems. Generally one turbine, service road included takes up less than one acre of land. They do kill a few raptors, birds, bats and migrating birds. It's kind of a stretch to compare them to strip mine, plowing wetlands etc.

That corner of the earth you're talking about, is up to you and I to save. That's why I'm a member of PF !
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So because prairie chickens were in decline pre-wind turbines, that makes it okay to add turbines to leks? Again, I go back to your admission that you don't know anything about prairie chickens.

Should you have interest in prairie chickens, I could direct you to the Society of Tympanuchus Cupido Pinnatus, Ltd., which you might be interested in supporting like you do by being a member of PF.

http://prairiegrouse.org/STCP.html

I have on my desk, an interesting read, "Prairie Chickens & Grasslands: 2000 and Beyond. A Report to the Council of Chiefs", by John E Toepfer, PhD and Greg Septon, Editor. It is a publication of the STCP.
 
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Fred74 said:
You have totally misinterpreted the Betz Law.


The Betz law, also refered to as the Betz limit refers to the amount of kinetic energy extracted from the wind coming into the rotor, it has absolutely nothing to due with the power output of the turbine !
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Yeah, I understand the theory quite well, please explain to me which point in process you choose to extract your 98% efficiency? I am having a hard time thinking of any engine that operates at 98% efficiency?!?

Rut
 
Fred74 said:
I think the prairie chicken was probably on the decline before wind turbines came along. I think we can just blame man and money for all of our problems. Generally one turbine, service road included takes up less than one acre of land. They do kill a few raptors, birds, bats and migrating birds. It's kind of a stretch to compare them to strip mine, plowing wetlands etc.

That corner of the earth you're talking about, is up to you and I to save. That's why I'm a member of PF !
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prairie chickens require uninterrupted landscapes, Any structure over ten feet tall, if memory serves correctly disrupts the life the nesting cycle. A prairie chicken will not nest within a quarter mile, ( some think further), of any similar structure. PF membership or not, won't undo the damage. 10,000 regular PF members couldn't fix the damage from one ill placed wind turbine. Not a stretch at all. Pheasants by the way, are in decline in your state, and many others, so by your logic, we should build more hog confinements, encourage the plowing of CRP, burn wetlands, and mow all the ditches to ensure a hasty departure! It's obvious to me that you have no concern whatsoever for the Prairie Chicken or the habitat it relies on, Like the Buffalo, when we destroy the habitat we will have pathetic, vulnerable, zoo-like remnant populations like those in Illinois, Missouri, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Those are greaters, the lessers are not that adaptable. Rule one should be as the hypocratic oath, " first do no harm".
 
Fred74 said:
I think the prairie chicken was probably on the decline before wind turbines came along. I think we can just blame man and money for all of our problems. Generally one turbine, service road included takes up less than one acre of land. They do kill a few raptors, birds, bats and migrating birds. It's kind of a stretch to compare them to strip mine, plowing wetlands etc.

That corner of the earth you're talking about, is up to you and I to save. That's why I'm a member of PF !
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The fact that they were on the decline before the turbines has absolutely nothing to do with it. That doesn't make it right. Also, man and money have a LOT to do with it all as well, but it is 100% up to man, to try to rectify the situation. We have forced these conditions on the animals. That is why it is our responsibility to try to help. True, some animals can adapt. The vast majority cannot. I have yet to see a Prairie Chicken plow and sew a field to better it's own habitat. We have done this, we have to undo this as much as possible, or there will be no "wild" life. Don't get me wrong, I'm no tree hugger...hell, I hate the things for the way they have added troubles to the quail populations. A major problem is, there is a large number of people that think any animal that is "cute," must be left alone. B.S. Just like everything else, it must be managed properly. Remember, ANYTHING in excess is not good. Fellas, I got sober several years ago, and the one thing I always remebered, even to this day, still applies. It didn't get like this overnight, it will not be fixed overnight. But throwing up another effing wind turbine sure isn't gonna help. This new push, isn't for "GREEN" energy because it's best for the big picture, it's more because it makes someone feel all warm and cozy, thinking they are helping the environment. Those a$$holes wouldn't know the real "environment" if it sat on their face and wiggled. I may be wrong, but I assumed Prairie Chickens ARE part of the environment?!? Sorry about my soapbox, but the self-serving, "look what I support," thoughtless bastards that support this crap really put a burr under my saddle blanket! I'm done.
 
Soonerhead said:
This new push, isn't for "GREEN" energy because it's best for the big picture, it's more because it makes someone feel all warm and cozy, thinking they are helping the environment. .
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I'm pretty sure it doesn't make anyone at GE, Chevron, Shell, BP feel warm and cozy! They're investing in commercial solar/wind and manufacturing renewables (in many cases) because grid parity is being reached in some areas and MONEY is being made through power purchase agreements with investor owned utilities who voters have requried to diversify their portfolio standards.
 
M. R. Byrd said:
So because prairie chickens were in decline pre-wind turbines, that makes it okay to add turbines to leks? Again, I go back to your admission that you don't know anything about prairie chickens.

Should you have interest in prairie chickens, I could direct you to the Society of Tympanuchus Cupido Pinnatus, Ltd., which you might be interested in supporting like you do by being a member of PF.

http://prairiegrouse.org/STCP.html

I have on my desk, an interesting read, "Prairie Chickens & Grasslands: 2000 and Beyond. A Report to the Council of Chiefs", by John E Toepfer, PhD and Greg Septon, Editor. It is a publication of the STCP.
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I'm not saying it makes it okay to add turbines to the mix, it's not for me to decide if it's right or wrong. I can only make an opinion, just as you.

Seriously, couldn't we blame the industrial revolution and farming more ? Those two have changed Americas land scape far more than wind energy ever will. All the millions and millions of acres plowed, trees felled and sloughs drained and tiled. I don't blame any of you guys for being passionate/angered by what's happened to the game you pursue. I'm just as much of a hunter/conservationist as any of you guys. I kove to hunt and fish, and I feel your pain.

I don't blame the farmers either. Life seems to be about maximizing everything.

I will check out the link you attached, and yes I don't know the first thing about prairie chickens. I've only seen them hunted on the outdoor channel and in magazines. I would definitely be interested in pursuing them !
 
oldandnew said:
prairie chickens require uninterrupted landscapes, Any structure over ten feet tall, if memory serves correctly disrupts the life the nesting cycle. A prairie chicken will not nest within a quarter mile, ( some think further), of any similar structure. PF membership or not, won't undo the damage. 10,000 regular PF members couldn't fix the damage from one ill placed wind turbine. Not a stretch at all. Pheasants by the way, are in decline in your state, and many others, so by your logic, we should build more hog confinements, encourage the plowing of CRP, burn wetlands, and mow all the ditches to ensure a hasty departure! It's obvious to me that you have no concern whatsoever for the Prairie Chicken or the habitat it relies on, Like the Buffalo, when we destroy the habitat we will have pathetic, vulnerable, zoo-like remnant populations like those in Illinois, Missouri, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Those are greaters, the lessers are not that adaptable. Rule one should be as the hypocratic oath, " first do no harm".
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I'm well aware of the decline of the pheasant in my state and many others. I'm not sure what you would consider my logic to be, but you've painted a pretty broad and disturbing picture that is totally opposite if what I believe in. I don't believe I've advocated plowing crp, burning wetlands and mowing ditches etc etc.

Like stated in one of my other posts on here, couldn't the farmer and industrial revelution be blamed more ? They have changed americas landscape more than anything else.
 
Rusty Trigger said:
Thinking you guys are looking at two different efficiencies. Looks like Betz is refering to what can be taken from the wind. 92-98% I am guessing is the efficiency that the motor produces electricity. Either way, they take away a landscape plus much more.
Click to expand...

Wind turbines don't have motors.
 
RuttCrazed said:
Yeah, I understand the theory quite well, please explain to me which point in process you choose to extract your 98% efficiency? I am having a hard time thinking of any engine that operates at 98% efficiency?!?

Rut
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You didn't sound like you new the theory at all. It sounded like you thought that Betz had something to do with the efficiency of the ouput of the turbine.

Turbines don't have motors, they have a generator.

The turbines of 20 and 30 years ago probably have low efficiences, especially the ones in California. Like stated in my earlier posts there are tests conducted for years to find the best places to erect turbines, places that will have a wind resource to help the turbine run at an optimal level.

The point in the process at which the percentage of efficiency is whatever percentage has nothing to do with my decision at all. The turbines are all watched over by a SCADA system that tracks turbine output for the day year etc etc, and is done in real time. You can pull up the SCADA screen at anytime and check a whole site or individual turbines.

Most wind farms will have a goal of 90% efficiency for the year, anything below that gets seriously scrutinized.
 
I would love to see how exactly this "efficiency" is tracked! There is no way in hell the turbines are effectively transferring the kinetic energy of the wind into electricity at a 90% rate, which is the efficiency I am referring to.

Rut
 
Fred74 said:
I'm well aware of the decline of the pheasant in my state and many others. I'm not sure what you would consider my logic to be, but you've painted a pretty broad and disturbing picture that is totally opposite if what I believe in. I don't believe I've advocated plowing crp, burning wetlands and mowing ditches etc etc.

Like stated in one of my other posts on here, couldn't the farmer and industrial revelution be blamed more ? They have changed americas landscape more than anything else.
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My point is to be direct, is that the act of putting up a wind tower, is absolutely as destructive to the prairie chicken habitat, as burning a wetland and plowing fence line to fence line, Might as well strip mine the great plains, result for the chicken identical.
 
oldandnew said:
My point is to be direct, is that the act of putting up a wind tower, is absolutely as destructive to the prairie chicken habitat, as burning a wetland and plowing fence line to fence line, Might as well strip mine the great plains, result for the chicken identical.
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I'm curious, what kind of ground are these turbines being put on. Are we talking farm fields, grass lands, pasture.....etc.
 
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