Where have the quail gone?

OKIEGunner said:
SetterNut,

I feel your pain:mad:
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The thing that has me puzzled is I saw, and heard birds in these spots this spring and summer. I was actually expecting more birds this year than last.

I keep thinking that they are there somewhere. The scenting conditions have not been very good when I have been out. But they have been bad before and with the experience of the dogs we have, we "alway" find them.

Well we dang near got skunked today, and that hasn't happened in a long time.

There, I am done venting................... at least till after tomorrows hunt :rolleyes:
 
I have seen it before, but not that lasted for a whole season. Could be the cause is the weird dry spell, or fall shuffle, it's been kinda warm so far as well. I hope you find them.
 
Steve, you may have been seeing/hearing males of hens who's nests failed in the hot dry weather. They may have sounded like 5 potential coveys that are now just 1. Keep records of the adult/1st year ratio. That should tell you a lot.
 
Prairie Drifter said:
Steve, you may have been seeing/hearing males of hens who's nests failed in the hot dry weather. They may have sounded like 5 potential coveys that are now just 1. Keep records of the adult/1st year ratio. That should tell you a lot.
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Of the three quail I have shot this season, all 3 have been pretty young birds.
 
Maybe the birds are getting smarter!;) On a more serious note, I've talked to lots of folks and also read responses here on the computer about when someone metiones that "we used to have quail here 20 years ago, nothing's changed, where did the quail go"? I know on my little 70 acre piece of ground here in SW MO that at first glance it doesn't really look like much has changed. Untill you see a pic of the place 20 years prior. Its dramatic and eye opening to say the least. Mature trees have taken over where there were none, and where there were just a few scattered, now its thick. But that also brings up a good question. Most folks in the know seem to be in agreement that quail are critters of early successional cover and thrive on soil disturbance of some type on a fairly regular basis. They dont like mature timber but instead prefer shrubby draws and the like. The question is what has changed in the past 20 or 30 years so that there aren't as many shrubby draws and such? Or, in other words, why wasn't there overgrown draws 30 years ago like there are now, or was there and the other factors like weedy crop fields, an abundance of various grain crops and brushy fence rows able to overcome other habitat issues? A lot of folks seem to point to the fact that mature trees overtaking former shrubby areas as a big factor in the quails demise but who's to say this wasn't a problem back in the glory days of the 60's and 70's? Just a thought.
 
Jaytee. In this case we had plenty of birds here last year, and saw them earlier in the year. They have given me the slip of didn't make it through the late summer heat. I vote for them giving me the slip :)
 
It's not as hard an answer as you think Jaytee. We brought in the original trees in the first half of this century, post dirty thirties. Those trees matured and started producing seed. The original seedlings have gone through their successional stages to the point that they are now also producing seed. It's a vicious cycle that is accelerating. Add the fact that there are fewer people per acre in the country now and those that are there are less apt to heat and cook with wood. We haven't proved we can stay ahead of it. My own wildlife area is a textbook case. We bought the 3000 acres west of the headquarters in 1965. Recently, the riparian acres were canopied and getting bare at ground level. Cedar plantings Mr. Walker did in the 60's are starting to near end-of-life age. You can actually see where the woody cover is climbing out of the draws and moving toward the top of the hills. My fire, spraying, cutting, and disking is starting to make a difference. More money and time would make this a quicker prospect, but that don't grow on trees:)
 
I understand what your saying Troy, but what about areas that have had trees for centuries, like here in SW MO? How was the quail population back 100 or 200 years ago when alot of this area was big timber? I know that the indians used fire way back when.
 
Jaytee, the great prairies ran through Missouri into Iowa, Indiana, and Ohio. A lot of the upper level woodlands you have now were actually prairie for eons. Frequent fire kept those prairie remnants, left significant transition zones and plenty of edge. The loss of fire has allowed the woodlands for fill in where there was once prairie.
 
Fire is good, we like lots of fire!!:cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers: Just make sure you've got plenty of help on hand.:D So I understand about the prairie, but that was many many moons ago, I'm talking about 30 40 years ago.
 
The woodlands were more savannah like then. They were open at the top and thick below with significant patches of grass and weeds in the major openings. That's the management goal for many plantations in the southeast now.
 
Okay I guess my point is, if they were more savanah like then, how did they get that way? What kept them from becoming overgrown? If shrubby draws are becoming overgrown now in a 30 or so year period, what kept them from becoming the same back in the day? Not trying to be argumenative, just curious. More cattle, more use of fire, more timber harvesting?
 
It's all about time. We hadn't changed the management of those acres then to the point that trees had the advantage. The trees hadn't reached the stage that promoted expansion. More people on the land, managing those acres in smaller plots with primitive agriculture kept the successional level lower. As the openings filled in, the quail being able to use those acres decreased. I think that there was a resurgence of disturbance after WWII that gave us the boom of the 60's that carried into the 80's in some areas. Since that time, we have converted most of the grassland acres to fescue and the remaining woodlands have aged and spread. I can't quote the exact numbers, but in Kansas, woodlands increased 20%+ from 1980 to 2000 something. If that was measured back to the 60's it would be much more.
 
Okay, that makes sense. I know that back here, when my grandparents were living here on the farm, the timber here on this farm along with most of the neighbors was burned every few years. Now that same timber hasn't seen a fire in over 40 years.
 
Prairie Drifter said:
Jaytee, the great prairies ran through Missouri into Iowa, Indiana, and Ohio. A lot of the upper level woodlands you have now were actually prairie for eons. Frequent fire kept those prairie remnants, left significant transition zones and plenty of edge. The loss of fire has allowed the woodlands for fill in where there was once prairie.
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Back in the late seventies when I lived in Frontenac(SE Kansas), I would visit a former employee's mother and sometimes her brother who was always referred to as Uncle Hank was there. They all lived between Pittsburg and Columbus and were what I would consider poor. One Christmas the grown kids gave their mother indoor plumbing. Uncle Hank had no indoor plumbing and no electricity. Uncle Hank always had a story to tell, and I can't remember most of them, except he would talk about the prairie, or the lack thereof, and how in 'his' day that area of SE Kansas was prairie, like what my home stomping grounds in SW Kansas still had, he would say.
 
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We have a bingo. The frequent fires would make a big difference. Forty years without would change a lot.
 
When every farmer burned every wood patch early spring, we didn't have ticks either! used to find a high percentage of quail nests, high value insects, (from a quail perspective), lots of blackberries, native prairie grasses. The area of SE Kans., Hepler-Walnut, and NE Oklahoma, around Vinita-Big Cabin was prime prairie chicken county clear into the mid sixties. Couldn't walk an osage orange hedgerow without finding quail. The closing of the canopy hurt, but in my opinion not any worse than the coming of fescue. It's more like death by 1000 cuts. Canopy maturity, fescue, evolution of big field clean row agriculture, massive increase in herbicides, pesticides, conversion away from milo to soybeans. Even the State conservation Departments share some blame for 50 years of supporting and focusing on deer and turkey and completely ignoring small game. How many times did I here the phrase "high value" wildlife mangement, meaning wildlife which brought hunters from out of state hunters and dollars to fund the cause. Forgotten or assumed that they would get along forever where the quail, rabbits and first succession wildlife. Where were the Conservation Officials when the USDA began touting the wonders of fescue? SW Missouri used to be full of pastures of low growth annual lespedeza, now converted to miles of fescue. All stars aligned against the quail and chickens. Like all things, sure would have been cheaper to preserve, had we had any leadership, 50 years ago, rather than spend 5 times that much in effort and cash to fix what we squandered away.
 
SetterNut said:
The thing that has me puzzled is I saw, and heard birds in these spots this spring and summer. I was actually expecting more birds this year than last.

I keep thinking that they are there somewhere. The scenting conditions have not been very good when I have been out. But they have been bad before and with the experience of the dogs we have, we "alway" find them.

Well we dang near got skunked today, and that hasn't happened in a long time.

There, I am done venting................... at least till after tomorrows hunt :rolleyes:
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Old & New,

I’ve had similar findings the past few years in Oklahoma as well. I saw good numbers this year in August & September when conducting deer counts. In some areas quail roadside counts looked promising earlier in the year. I believe the late hatch that normally accrues did not have much success. So far, most of the birds that I have pointed this year, only have 6-8 birds in a covey. The drought just may have increased the mortality rate here in Oklahoma. I know hunting pressure is not the cause! But I agree with the vanishing act on of some of these covey’s, more than likely the “Fall Shuffle”. I’m just hoping for a calm and peaceful winter and that there will be enough seed stock for next nesting season. I will have better feel once the deer hunting subsides for the year.
 
Hunted SE Kansas this weekend. 2 hunters, 2 good experienced dogs and my pup. My buddy has access to three large fields that ALWAYS hold good quail numbers, and some others that are less predictable. We only hunted two of the three good fields due to cows in the third field.

4-5 coveys would be the typical minimum for the ground we covered. Found 0. Both fields had plenty of edge cover, food, and protection. I would say the habitat looked as good as it ever has (with the exception that the adjacent haymeadow was a little shorter than normal). The fields hadn't been hunted this year. We spoke with local farmers at each place and each one said exactly this, "you want to hunt quail,,, good luck.:rolleyes:"

I mostly just wanted to get the pup into some birds this weekend, and felt this might be my best chance of the year to do it... Failed.:mad:

We considered walking the third "cow field" without the pup just to see if there are any quail left in SE Kansas, but we and the big dogs were getting tired.

Tough, tough hunting.
 
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