turkey season

G

gsh lover

Active member
I think I have mentioned this in past posts, but its worth talking about.
I have been a turkey hunter for several years now, 15-20 years. For the last several years, I have had the privilege to hunt some really great land, to the point that we, my boys and I, can talk about where we set up just by naming the tree we would sit on. Some years where slim some years where great. By slim I mean only a couple of hundred in the winter flock. Several years we would watch at least 500 to 600 birds fly down. These birds would always break up into the normal mating groups (15-30 hens) with various aged toms chasing.
This deer season, I noticed the lack of birds in the section, to the point that saw zero turkeys. didn't really worry to much, since they have been known to winter in different parts of the section.
Well, about a month or so ago, we got serious about locating birds, and did our normal scouting ritual, Driving out before daybreak listening for gobbles, walking timber edges looking for sign.
Nothing. I mean as if they had fell into a hole in the ground and where swallowed up. as you can image, this concerned me. Started talking to the local farmers/ranchers and no one had been seeing any birds.
A couple weeks ago, I ran into a local GW, and told him my tale of sorrow, the first thing out of his mouth,"was there a turkey farm close by" and sure as hell is, 1/2 mile as the crow fly. Apparently, NW Arkansas and SW Missouri are experiencing the same thing. Seems that the turkey farms manure is not being sterilized properly, and that allowing the black head disease to get into the wild flocks. according to the GW, if black head gets into a wild flock, it will wipe them out.
Then, last week a couple of farms had tested positive for avian bird flu, while not sure what that would do to thw wild turkey, surely can't be good.
Went out this am, great morning to scout, even heard a bird or two, not where anyone can hunt, but at least heard a gobble. also saw a nice group of birds with several male birds in full strut, but also where no one can hunt.
JUst wondering if anyone else in SEK, is experiencing the same as I am.
Also, do you think if I contact KDWP, they would have a clue.( no offense PD)
Really at a lost on which direction to go. Not ready to give up on this season yet. But sure doesn't look good.
Look for ward to any replys.

:cheers:
 
Turkeys were way down in Cherokee county for several years but last summers hatch was good so saw a few more birds bowhunting this fall. Not for sure what you are asking for sure. If you don't have birds go somewhere else. Calling KDWPT will yield nothing. They are to busy fencing off more habitat so they can run buffalo on it here.

People have been blaming turkey farms for years on the quail population decline. What it all boils down to is habitat and some cooperation from mother nature. The decline of turkeys in sek was do to several years of very wet conditions during nesting time. In 2012 and 2013 it was so wet nothing hatched. Hope all the rain and snow doesn't continue in this part of the state. Our ground is soaked.
 
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westksbowhunter said:
Turkeys were way down in Cherokee county for several years but last summers hatch was good so saw a few more birds bowhunting this fall. Not for sure what you are asking for sure. If you don't have birds go somewhere else. Calling KDWPT will yield nothing. They are to busy fencing off more habitat so they can run buffalo on it here.

People have been blaming turkey farms for years on the quail population decline. What it all boils down to is habitat and some cooperation from mother nature. The decline of turkeys in sek was do to several years of very wet conditions during nesting time. In 2012 and 2013 it was so wet nothing hatched. Hope all the rain and snow doesn't continue in this part of the state. Our ground is soaked.
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this ain't my first rodeo. This flock had 150 200 birds last season, I watch this group year around. Mother nature has Nothing to due with this. I drive through Cherokee county every day to work. Your population is way down. from last year, same thing entire flock's gone.
Example this group of birds had 21 jakes last year, nature didn't kill off 21 jakes or I wouldn't think it would. Finding someplace else to hunt is not so easy.I'm not a rich man, so I'm not paying to hunt. Liability insurance keeps most hunters off of farmers property, or they have kin, or someone else. Not sure where you hunt at, but I've done a lot of talking to farmers, something bad is happening to the wild turkey. They are disappearing at a rapid pace. If you have a huntable population of birds, your a lucky guy.
 
Our numbers are up from what they were. Nesting conditions is what brought them down starting around 2007 or so and was bad for quite a few years. No hatch for multiple years and then the old birds die off for reasons such as disease and predators. In 2013 I hunted all year and never saw one jake. 2014 saw a hatch and saw lots of broods in the fall like I said so there will be some this spring. But will take a few more years of consistent hatches.

I hunt 3 different states and have never paid anyone to hunt, as I hunt public land. As far as populations go, you are going to continue to see things dwindle. Whether it is quail, turkey, pheasants, etc. Our farming practices have changed. The landscape in SEK does not remotely look anything like it did 40 plus years ago. We just don't have habitat like we did, pesticides and herbicides are over used, and most simply don't care about nature. We will have a few good years here and there but I hate to think about what hunting will be like in another 20 years.
 
I have also seen a steep decline in bird numbers where I hunt but it's because of the weak hatches in 2013 and 2012. I wouldn't doubt a turkey farm could spread disease and wipe wild birds out though. Last spring I didn't see a single jake all season. Managed to harvest two mature toms but this year I think that may be more difficult to accomplish in the area I hunt. This year I would expect to see more jakes since last spring there was better nesting conditions for all birds.
 
Frangler said:
I have also seen a steep decline in bird numbers where I hunt but it's because of the weak hatches in 2013 and 2012. I wouldn't doubt a turkey farm could spread disease and wipe wild birds out though. Last spring I didn't see a single jake all season. Managed to harvest two mature toms but this year I think that may be more difficult to accomplish in the area I hunt. This year I would expect to see more jakes since last spring there was better nesting conditions for all birds.
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Looks like we are on the same page.

Back around 2009, I went to pull out my treestands in a 160 acre area over Christmas break in western Kansas. My kids were with me. When we came over the hill to the alfalfa field there were at least 200 turkeys in that field. Several dozen strutting. I was licking my chops to get in there an take one with my bow when season rolled around. Drove by there for a couple of weeks to watch them. Then I just quit seeing them. So over spring break me and my kids went in there shed hunting. We found dozens of dead turkeys mostly just feather piles. Then we found about a half dozen dead coyotes. I am certain that they were poisoned. Never seen one turkey in there that entire spring. And it was always loaded with them for years. And I don't know of one turkey farm out there either.
 
as i have posted, this flock had a great hatch, or must of had a great hatch, in 2013, 21 JAKES along with several first year hens, is a GREAT hatch. Poison could be the cause, although the land owner is a conservationist, so I doubt thats the cause.
Nothing to the habit has changed, so thats probably not the cause.
Guys, not trying to argue, I'm not the best guy in the woods, but i can hold my own. Been around turkeys for a long time, went quail went away, turkey hunting became my passion. I've learned a lot the hard way, out in the field, getting busted, and after a few years finally figured them thunder chickens out.
I'm not talking about one flock of birds, this has involved several square miles, of the best turkey habitat you will ever find. I would conservatively say that there where over five to six hundred birds as of two years ago. Now, maybe 10 or so, not really sure how many are left.
I understand bad hatches and good hatches, bad years and good years.
I hope that you guys are right, and I'm full of shit, but I will bet you that I'm not. Somethings up, and it needs to be addressed.
Troy Smith, if you would, please point me in the right direction on whom to contact at the state level. Just want to know if what I was told is fact.

thanks for the input guys.

:cheers:
 
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well, managed to find some turks to hunt. several miles away from my normal stomping grounds. Sounds like quite a few adult toms gobbling, so April 6th will be the day.
Came across some more information about the decline of wild birds, seems the migration of ducks and geese could have something to do with it (bird flu). There is a rather large flock of resident honkers in the section, that I'm sure attract geese moving south, and back north. Who knows, just hope they come back(the turks, not the geese)

:cheers:
 
Also, do you think if I contact KDWP, they would have a clue.( no offense PD)

None taken. Not sure I can add much, out of my neck of the woods. I do know here that the spring dispersion doesn't always bless my area with the birds it had the year before. I don't know what drives where they head to breed and nest, but some years its a much bigger arrival than others. If you found avian and furbearer morts in the same location, some kind of toxin may be in order. I can make a call or two and see if there is any talk in house. I'm kinda in a burn-baby-burn mode right now with too dangdable much training mixed in, but I'll try to get some feelers out!
 
My disclaimer is: I'm not over there:) I checked around and, from what I was told, there has been no documented large die-offs in that part of the state recently. Several of us have discussed this and feel that with the large losses between '07 and '11 from floods, 20 inch rainfall in June, and drought, we could have a situation where those remaining flocks have now dispersed into formerly void habitats that have rebounded post-event. Further, with the significant loss of CRP across the state, birds may also be adjusting their range due to those losses. Other than that, I'll report back any future discoveries I learn. If you find a die off, please contact the local biologist or call the Great Plains Nature Center in Wichita and ask for the Regional Wildlife Supervisor and report it. If something is going on, we want to get samples and have them tested!
 
thanks Troy
Will do, if we find any evidence. just spent the day in the east side of crawford county, which has held several turkeys in the past, nothing. The only thing that these areas have in common, large flocks of residential Canadian geese. Make you wonder if there is something to the bird flu theory.
 
I was in Pittsburg today and on the way home say 3 different flocks of turkeys. My wife travels from Cherokee to Fort Scott on hwy 7 everyday and manages to spot quite a few.
 
great news!! Did you happen to mark where they where at? LOL The flocks off of the 69 bypass don't count. Those are tame birds LOL
 
To be honest, I think about 15 years ago, we simply had to many turkeys here. The were as thick as flies. I am sure disease got in there and took out some birds. Then with the poor nesting and hatches for the last several years, they just have not rebounded.
I love to bow hunt turkeys, but to be honest if they all disappeared and quail came back strong, I would be a happy man. About the time the state starting stocking turkeys, the quail disappeared.
 
WKB, your timing may be right, but your connection is flawed. The quail decline and turkey upswing are linked, by habitat change, not direct species competition. Since the mid 80's, woodlands in SE Kansas have expanded some 30% or so. Along with that we have also seen the aging of the older stands, the invasion of grasslands by cedars, the conversion of NWSG prairie to fescue and brome, and a shift from more traditional row crops to soybeans. In that the turkey's habitat adaption is much broader and centered on a higher level of plant succession, they have had the adaptive advantage in this new habitat reality. Quail, on the other hand, have seen their habitat base erode at a very high rate. It is unfortunate that hunters grasp at unsubstantiated, unlinked parallels. All too often it diverts attention and the associated $ away from the necessary responses. It may be human nature, but to make a difference, we have to do better than that!

GSH, if we assumed that all bird species were equally susceptible (not true), we would expect to see a significant decrease in the goose population as well. Remember the two years where you had significant rainfall during the production period? Flooding filled much of the riparian habitat and prevented nesting in those valuable acres. It also reduced upland nesting and had birds sitting on drowned eggs that didn't hatch and may have prevented renesting due to extended incubation efforts. Even with a fecundity of 8-16 eggs per nest, it will take several successive good nesting seasons and significant pioneering into open habitats to reach the stage you were at before.
 
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Having done a lot of hunting in the 70s and 80's I agree with Troy on the change in habitat. Brome is a big problem in areas, then you plant soybeans in the crop field next to it and you will have almost no quail.
 
Wasn't implying that the expansion of turkeys had anything to do with the decline of quail. So nothing flawed. Woodlands in SEK has not expanded. I would say it has declined by 30%. Many 1 mile sections in Cherokee county don't have any trees left. Sections that were thick in timber back in the 60's and 70's.

My point was that KDWP started releasing turkeys here in the early 80's. The last good quail season was in 1986. I don't think that turkeys had anything to do with it. Your just assuming because that is a common myth.
 
The problem with the written word is that there are no other cues to direct the reception/understanding of it. As such, everything is left to the reader to infer the intention of the writer. Another words, we need more information. If you'll google "Woodland expansion in Kansas", you'll find plenty of documentation of what I've brought up. It's happened and has been happening for a very long time. It's not exclusive to eastern Kansas. I see it all the way to the Colorado border. We've introduced species capable of pioneering into our grassland habitats, we've removed the "natural" controls, and we've accelerated the invasion by our land management failures.

Now, the question is: what are you inferring when comparing quail declines with turkey stocking? Most of the turkey stocked were wild-caught and released. If they had a pathogen that would affect quail, then quail should have been absent where the turkey came from. I guess I just don't "get" your statement.
 
actually saw more quail this fall while deer hunting, or should say deer watching,since didn't pull the trigger. have talked to several farmers down in Cherokee County, who have saw more quail than in the past. Which confuses me, if the quail hatch has been better, which obviously it has, how could the turkey hatch not of been good? isn't the timing of breeding and laying and hatch about the same time? Just asking.
As far as habitat, overhead cover, along with the proper ground cover, has changed. Not so sure how the change in timber expansion works, but not the first time to here that is a major concern.
What I've have saw, at least in the places we used to find a lot of birds, is the farmer's use of herbicide has increased. No more "dirty" farmers. Road to road farming, removal of hedge rows, and the planting of fescue grass, which chokes out the native grasses.
Wish the State would pay more attention to these things, I think we are only in year 4 of this drought, and as the old saying goes, droughts run for 10 years. I'm afraid that if we are not careful, the dust bowl days will reappear
Just my 2 cents

:cheers:
 
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