Surrogator or Not???

mnmthunting, you are a good moderator don't quit, you have my vote.

This is a repeat thread, we have had this discussion before. I don't have the strength to jump in, but I will. There are +'s and -' on both side of this issue. Those of us who care about wild pheasants must have a civil/calm and fair and balanced discussion.

Both mnmthunting and Prairie Drifter are right in their own way.

There is an old saying there are two sides to every story, and there is a middle side or third side. I will take the middle side.

Prairie Drifter is right about the English study on wild pheasant survival vs pen raised pheasant survival. Fat tame inbred pen raised pheasants with no instinct to duck or crouch in the wild will get picked out (like lions pick out sick wildebeest on the animal channel) quickly by the predators.

Maybe we need a wilder f1 pen raised pheasant, wild genes new, truly wild blood.

However, we simply can't PRETEND that pen raised pheasants had no part in the history of wild pheasant in north America.

Randy Rogers (Kansas top pheasant biologist) should give a more balanced statement on pen raised pheasants. He should say, 100 generations in the pen, modern day (2011) pen raised pheasant don't work. But back in 1906 the first pen raised pheasants released in Kansas did work, that is how the wild pheasants got started.

Kansas also had a very active and productive game bird farm in Pratt, Kansas. In the 1950's Kansas released 20,000 pheasants annually (read page 255 of the book "Pheasants In North America" by Durward L. Allen 1956).
Kansas has a part of the wild pheasant range termed "Non-Range", no one knows where wild pheasants will be 100 years from now. Wild pheasants have expanded their range (with the help of man) in Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico.

Now I will agree with mnmthunting and quail hound. Suppose you have a good area with excellent pheasant habitat but no truly wild pheasants within a 40 mile radius. And you don't necessary just want to shoot pheasants but you would like to get a wild self sustaining/reproducing pheasant population started, simply because you like to see the birds hanging around. And cost is not a big concern.

WHAT DO YOU DO?

As big as this country is, why should only a few selected states have all of the pheasant fun.

There are situations like this all over this country. A good example of this exist in the Texas panhandle, wild reproducing pheasants are seen in the fields around Pampa, Texas. But forty miles east of Pampa with some of the same farming habitat (center pivot irrigation) very few wild pheasant. Yes I know the wild pheasant will eventually move in, in 20 years, maybe. Suppose you don't want to wait 20 years to see wild pheasants.
Thirty years ago the state stocked F1 pen raised (wild genes pheasants) were stocked around Pampa.
But the state ran out of pheasant raising or trapping funds. The average citizen can't legally trap wild pheasant and relocate them.

So that leaves the private citizen that want to get pheasants started on good habitat only one choice. And that is to release wilder strains of pen raised pheasants.
When I say wilder strains of pen raised pheasants I mean pheasants that are commercially available like the Manchurian-Kansas cross or the Afghan White-Winged pheasant. Both of there pheasant strains are more wary and alert in the wild (better chance of escaping predators) than the average commercially available regular pen raised pheasant.
 
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RoosterFetcher said:
Hello Gentlemen/Ladies: Need your advice on something...
Does it do more harm to release pheasants into the wild? If not is a surrogator worth the money?
Click to expand...

I have a surrogator and raised quial last year with it. I also have a 80x20x15 flight pen. Surrogator birds did little better as the flight pen birds.Or maybe I am wishing they did better to justify my 1800.00 investment. We are adding the feeders and waters this year in the area of release
We do have a small population of wild quail and seem to be seeing more birds this year. I will have more data after this year. Doing habitat work on 40 acres and will do 1 quail releases (125 birds) in that area and then move to new areas where we have wild birds. ;):thumbsup:
 
I am not going to debate so much as to wether releasing birds boost the population or not. I just would like to say what I have observed over the years of crp and pheasant numbers. In the first three to seven years of crp the birds around here increased dramaticly. It went from seeing two or three birds a season to a hunded or more. You would find birds in almost every field, sometimes fifty to sixty. As the fields aged the bird number began to drop, until today most fields that have been in crp tweenty or more years have no birds left. This seems to me that habitat is the most important thing to have and it takes management to keep it productive. However if I had good habitat and no birds for miles to fill it I would try to release some bird. Five percent of two hunded birds is ten birds and that may be the start you need.
 
I think the surrogator, pen raised birds, game farms all have their place. It is when we get them confused with native establishment is when the debate and debacle come in. The PA state forum may have some interesting info on wild stocking of pheasants into certified habitat.

Looks like the UPH get together is planned to be on April 16th. Looks like we'll have to shoot some of them damn pen raised birds!!!:eek:
 
Thanks everyone for your views. I didn't mean to start anything on here, just wanted to know your thoughts. I appreciate all viewpoints in this matter.
- Cara...a.k.a RoosterFetcher
 
RoosterFetcher said:
Thanks everyone for your views. I didn't mean to start anything on here, just wanted to know your thoughts. I appreciate all viewpoints in this matter.
- Cara...a.k.a RoosterFetcher
Click to expand...

Don't worry, its not your fault we got riled up. It's already been too long since we've been in the fields with our dogs and we're all a bit on edge.:D
 
Rooster, it was an honest and excellent question that you and others needed answers to. We could have probably have delved into goals and location, budgets and manpower. There are so many facets to the overall answer. I just read a release by Dale Rollins on the plight of quail. His description of what he sees going on he calls a conspiracy. By that he means that there any number of pressures on the quail population that is causing the decline. Curing just 1 will not result in the wanted increase. The cure is a conspiracy of medications(methods) that will address a number of the causative problems affecting the quail population. Throwing inferior birds at a habitat that already won't support the desired numbers of superior birds isn't the answer for quail or pheasants. Quail hound is right, keep right on asking the questions!!!
 
Win97, your perception is correct! This all relates to the successional niche that pheasants thrive in best. If that sounds like a bunch of gobble de gook, then I'll try to simplify it. Succession is defined as the progression of plant communities you will see on a piece of ground over time starting with distrubed soil. In it's simplest form, succession will begin as nature tries to fill the void left by the soil disturbance. Initially, annual weeds and grass will sprout in the site. These plants will provide pheasants with excellent brood-rearing habitat, insect sources, and fall seed sources. Some of the plants, like kochia, provide excellent winter and escape cover as well. Over time, with natural impacts in place, perennial grasses will begin to overcome the annual weeds (forbs). These plants, like the NWSG we talk about planting on the habitat thread, provide excellent nesting, roosting, excape, and winter habitat. Over time, these stands of grass will be invaded by tree and brush. If natural forces like fire are removed from the system, these woody species can dominate this acreage and, "ultimately", the site could become some type of woodland.

Now, back to the pheasants. Our favorite bird does well when there is a good mixture of the earliest stages of plants. However, as grasses start to dominate and brush starts to invade, the benefits to pheasants start to decline. In biology, we often talk about "limiting factors". These might be explained as a component of habitat that, if increased, would favor an increase in the species being managed. At any level of this succession continuom, except where the balance is perfect, something will be a limiting factor. At the start, there is a lack of nesting, escape, and winter cover. Later, as the annuals diminish, the brood-rearing faction may be limiting. As woody cover dominates, both brood-rearing and nesting cover would be lacking.

Now to the point (at long last). What you have seen with CRP where the first 3-7 years are the most productive is this early mixture of good habitat types that increase the productivity of the acres and provide the maximum "useable" acres within the CRP contract. This cycle was more pronounced in the early contracts where few forbs were planted in the initial mix and mid-contract management was not included. As the grasses squeezed out the forbs, the habitat was less productive. Keeping the stand vigorous involves management. That can be fire, interseeding, annual disking as well as other techniques. Keeping the needed habitat units available and in useable proximity to one another is the goal at this point. Knowing that chicks aren't that mobile, as a manager you use techniques that are spread across the acreage so broods anywhere on the tract can move from one habitat type to another easily. In some (and maybe all to some extent) parts of the pheasant range, CRP may not be used heavily during the production season, especially those tracts dominated by grasses. Pheasants often select for other nesting and brood-rearing sites if available. In Kansas, some surveys have found over 70% of the pheasant nests are located in green wheat. The extent where this avoidance of CRP happens depends somewhat of the stand's successional level and it's structure. What other habitats are available also figures in.

This all can be used to help you select where to hunt come fall. With a little experience, you may be able to tell what tracts are going to be most productive to hunt while driving by at 55 mph. I often tell guys that they need to look at their feet when they enter a patch. If you can't see your feet and lower legs due to the thatch, you probably won't see impressive numbers of birds in the patch. This may change in late season, but early on these higher successional patches won't be used heavily. If you find a patch with sunflowers, kochia, and other forbs noticeable and widely distributed, time to turn out the dogs.
 
Is a surrogator a fix for bad habitat...NO. But, they can speed up the return of pheasants. We have had cases where the habitat was improved...but no pheasants. Therefore, we started using surrogators. There has been a huge learning curve and I would be the 1st to say... the first couple years we did not have very good success.
Now thru years of learning.... I beleive our success has improved. We have even made our own surrogators out of some farrowing sheds. This allows us to raise 250 pheasants per turn vs. 60 per turn. Built 20' x 10' holding pens attached to the sheds to help the birds get used to the "wild". Adding the soft release, outside waterers and feeders have greatly improved out success.
Surrogators do work, they are not a cure all...but do work.
If you put the time into them.... you will see more birds.
 
Roosters said:
Is a surrogator a fix for bad habitat...NO. But, they can speed up the return of pheasants. We have had cases where the habitat was improved...but no pheasants. Therefore, we started using surrogators. There has been a huge learning curve and I would be the 1st to say... the first couple years we did not have very good success.
Now thru years of learning.... I beleive our success has improved. We have even made our own surrogators out of some farrowing sheds. This allows us to raise 250 pheasants per turn vs. 60 per turn. Built 20' x 10' holding pens attached to the sheds to help the birds get used to the "wild". Adding the soft release, outside waterers and feeders have greatly improved out success.
Surrogators do work, they are not a cure all...but do work.
If you put the time into them.... you will see more birds.
Click to expand...
Yep habitat has to be there to support them. We had a few nice hunts and dog work. Habitat this summer is going to help.
 
Roosters said:
Is a surrogator a fix for bad habitat...NO. But, they can speed up the return of pheasants. We have had cases where the habitat was improved...but no pheasants. Therefore, we started using surrogators. There has been a huge learning curve and I would be the 1st to say... the first couple years we did not have very good success.
Now thru years of learning.... I beleive our success has improved. We have even made our own surrogators out of some farrowing sheds. This allows us to raise 250 pheasants per turn vs. 60 per turn. Built 20' x 10' holding pens attached to the sheds to help the birds get used to the "wild". Adding the soft release, outside waterers and feeders have greatly improved out success.
Surrogators do work, they are not a cure all...but do work.
If you put the time into them.... you will see more birds.
Click to expand...

Roosters, You have the right plan, go with what works.
Good luck!
We all know, the more work and dedication we put into this, the better it works.:thumbsup:
 
Surragator

I'm from Virginia and quail are the game of choice.
I have good habitat and plan on creating the equivalent
of 15 acres of food plots of various sizes this spring. A
friend and I are planning on building 6 Surragator type
structures at a considerablely lower price than the retail
price. I'm planning on setting the devices in 3 year old
replanted cutover timber land, and setting numerous
traps for predators. In otherwords I'm going
to use the chicks in the device as bait during the 6 week
growth period.

Has anyone tried trapping the area around a set Surragator?
 
I'm sure a surrogator is going to draw every varmint in miles. So trapping is a given. I would look at the surrogator idea carefully as well, I have raised and released quail for years with johnny houses. Based upon those experiences I have a great deal of doubt about the whole concept. I have read a lot of research that seem to debunk the theory. I raise my birds in an brooder,when old enough to maintain body heat, I move to a johnny house, with periodic release and recall, prior to naturalized release. I also would save money on food plots unless you want a bunch of deer aqnd turkey, and plant ragweed, or till and allow natural regrowth of annual weeds. Food, is rarely the limiting factor for quail, it's nesting, brood, and winter/escape cover. They eat an astounding number of seeds, fruits, berries, and insects.
 
This might seem a little to simple, but I think the answer is, first create the proper habitat, and then go with a WILD CAPTIVE BREEDING PROGRAM!
 
FLDBRED said:
This might seem a little to simple, but I think the answer is, first create the proper habitat, and then go with a WILD CAPTIVE BREEDING PROGRAM!
Click to expand...

Wild relocation is just about universally illegal, unless there is some kind of official program. Quail are not pheasants and it's not really necessary for quail, despite the mantra, I question whether it's absolutely necessary for pheasants either. Possibilities of establishing a self sustaining huntable population of either on a small parcel without supporting infrastructure habitat from the surrounding farms is zero. Lets face it, if there was optimal or even passable habitat, there would be some birds there now. What is possible is a modified put and take arrangement where birds are available to work dogs on, fly very well, are savy to the terrain, and have a wariness not associated with pen raised released birds that eat Purina gamebird mash. My experience with pheasants is similar, I just find quail easier to work with. The Penn efforts I find intriguing. I hope for the best, but doubt without regular releases of pheasants, it will ultimately succeed, barring some massive habitat overhaul on the scope of thousands of acres. Mine survive for 2 or3 years, occasionally bring off a brood, and seem to be actually more abundant for a time, but without re-releases, and even in the absence of hunting, I will eventually loose them all. These are pen raised stock, but the same wild type strain released by the South Dakota hunting operations.
 
Thank you for your advice. I'll using
a three prong approach. Improving
habitats, food plots, and supplemental
bird planting. I'm going to give your
suggestions a try.
 
I'm going to agree with oldandnew on this also. I'd cut your food plot acres by 75 percent at least. Food is rarely a limiting factor in quail survival as they get their vast majority from weeds. Concentrate on brood, nesting and loafing areas and you'll have a good chance at success. WEEDS are your best friend when it comes to quail, not soybeans, milo, millet, ect. Get out the chainsaw and create some downed tree structures, some coveyheadquarters areas with shrub plantings, strip discing 30 feet wide or so and do some edge feathering work and you should see results. And as far as the pen raised bird issue, the only comment I'm going to make is this. After watching some of these TV shows and seeing the hunters having to nearly step on the birds to get them to flush or chase them across a bare ground area to get them to flush, I just dont see how they can stand much of a chance in the wild. Easy pickings for sure. But releasing birds is sure a lot easier then firing up a chainsaw.:cheers:
 
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