Pointing Labs

B

Bob Peters

Well-known member
I've always been curious, since labs are by their breed standard retrievers and not pointers, how were the first pointing labs made? Was it trained into them or bred into them? I've known a lot of all kind of labs and love the breed, just asking this question out of pure curiosity.
 
Some labs point naturally and others, I’m told, are trained to “point” or “stand game”. My guess is that at some point in the past labs were crossed with pointers. All puppies from dogs titled as “pointing Labradors” do not point. The first pointing lab that I can recall in my area was a chocolate lab, owned by a guy named Delery Guillory, named Hershey. They were associated with Black Forest Kennels. I thought it was the perfect match for an all around hunting/family dog! IF the wild pheasant sits, and the lab points naturally, it’s one of the coolest things to see while pheasant hunting in my opinion!
 
I had a naturally pointing chocolate; he was the beginning of the line we bred. He was Lab all the way. Actually a US show line dog that got too tall at the shoulder to go into the ring. He did have some show points though. This dog was amazing. He did the trick of pointing another rooster as he retrieved one already shot. No pointers or anything else in his woodpile. His pedigree was solid Lab and verifiable back about 5 generations.

It's pretty easy to see pointer influence in a "pointing lab". A skinny whip tail, a pointer head, a tall and rangy body. Some of this stuff will carry forward a few generations.
 
My first hunting dog was a chocolate lab that I got for free out of a box full of puppies at the sale barn. He weighed 100 lbs. and was a great pointer. He taught me more about hunting pheasants than I taught him. That was in the 80s, I still miss him.
 
I have had three pointing labs, and my two son's just purchased two female from same litter. Jan -2022.
If anyone is interested they are all from Sauk River Retrievers in Osakis, MN. The breeder has dogs all over
the United States. My understanding is that he has been breeding only natural pointing labs since 90's. Everyone
has been better than the last, and these two pups are holding points on Chukars and hen pheasants. Mine have
hunted with so many GSP, that I joke, they think they are GSP's. They back as well. Amazes this mid 60's old man.
Hunt for the dogs, not for me.
 

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haymaker said:
My first hunting dog was a chocolate lab that I got for free out of a box full of puppies at the sale barn. He weighed 100 lbs. and was a great pointer. He taught me more about hunting pheasants than I taught him. That was in the 80s, I still miss him.
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❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
 
So if an English Setter or GSP retrieves, were they crossed with a Labrador? Generally a pointing lab just flash points and then jumps in for the flush. I have owned several. They only point if the bird is frozen. I have a yellow female 10 weeks old that loves to point everything. More of a stalking thing.
 
Well, it would've been impossible to "train" pointing into a lab & have it carry through in breeding. I think. So whether it came from actual lab genetics, or from a pointing breed that got tossed into the salad somewhere along the line, it was definitely genetic. Some consider pointing labs an abomination of the breed. I'm not expert enough to have a strong opinion. But I suppose an analogy could be made. As a springer guy, I believe bench lines & field lines should be bred responsibly & in a way that maintains/improves the integrity of the breed & whichever line you're following. Not just taking any 2 springers, cobbling them together & ending up with some baby springers, just because you want some springers. Does this mean I believe field lines & bench lines should never be mixed? I don't even know if it's possible to avoid it all the time. Does it mean I believe the 2 lines should be bred such that they continue to diverge? I'm not sure. But I suppose it means I believe pointing labs & non-pointing labs should be bred in a way that somehow strengthens the line & doesn't have the effect of watering down or weakening the other, if that's possible. While discussing it, I quickly reach a point that's over my head.
 
Sage is a pointing lab and I'll be the first to tell you that she's no pointer. Sometimes, she'll pause before charging in. Sometimes she'll hold it longer. A lot of times, she just flushes the bird. What she doesn't do is hold point ad infinitum and wait for me to flush the bird. As you guys can tell from my videos, I give zero consideration to anything beyond watching Sage work and putting roosters in the vest. Style and etiquette are best left for the golf course, IMO. If someone doesn't like that, I would encourage them to work toward their standards with their dog. To be honest, I looked at Sage's bloodline and health clearances, but didn't know she was a "pointing" lab. At about 7 months, I saw her point a hen and asked my coworker about it (I got the dog from his dad) and that's when I learned about the pointing lab bloodline. I have done nothing to encourage her pointing/pausing, it's just something she does.

My understanding, is that there are two schools in the "pointing lab" genre. First is that some labs were crossed with pointers in the early 1900s to produce a dog that had the coat/durability for waterfowl and also pointing ability for upland. Second, the more common one, is that labs with pointing traits were bred together. Personally, if a breeder is conscientious of health, abilities and temperament, I think any secondary characteristics they breed for are acceptable, provided they are working within the breed. At the end of the day, a lab is a lab and isn't a pointer. Could a guy hone in on that pointing aspect and have them hold until the bird is flushed? Perhaps. Does a pointing lab have greater upland hunting abilities than a non-pointing lab? Again, I couldn't tell you.

Like A5 said, I don't completely get it and, like so many of the other stylish aspects of pheasant hunting, I could care less. I just like to hunt and I love my dog, regardless of what she may or may not be.
 
Wasn't there a guy on this site a few years ago by the name of William Wessels? He was starting a new dog breed called the WesslPointer. He has been crossing Labs with GSP's and English Pointers. He wanted a pointing dog with the coat of a Lab. Here's his web site for anyone interested.
 
Dakotazeb said:
Wasn't there a guy on this site a few years ago by the name of William Wessels? He was starting a new dog breed called the WesslPointer. He has been crossing Labs with GSP's and English Pointers. He wanted a pointing dog with the coat of a Lab. Here's his web site for anyone interested.
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I've seen his web site here in Idaho. I think they are great looking dogs but I'm not sure if id own one. And I have a hanging tree cow dog which is 1/4 catahoula, 1/4 Aussie, 1/4 border collie, and 1/4 kelpie. He's an amazing cow dog and works cows like those different breeds do so I can see how a Wessel pointer would be a good dog.
 
Grit said:
I have had three pointing labs, and my two son's just purchased two female from same litter. Jan -2022.
If anyone is interested they are all from Sauk River Retrievers in Osakis, MN. The breeder has dogs all over
the United States. My understanding is that he has been breeding only natural pointing labs since 90's. Everyone
has been better than the last, and these two pups are holding points on Chukars and hen pheasants. Mine have
hunted with so many GSP, that I joke, they think they are GSP's. They back as well. Amazes this mid 60's old man.
Hunt for the dogs, not for me.
Click to expand...
Great dogs out of Sauk river, I have one who is 10 now, so many beautiful points over the years, my friend has had 2 others that i have done some training with, excellent dogs, mine has bloodlines out of Raider from Holzinger kennels. A couple years ago wanted to get another but none available for a like over a year i think.
ended up going to Holzinger and getting a 1/2 british black lab. wow what a dog he is turning out to be, (needs work on pointing for sure)
my opinion is if you get your dogs on game farm birds (lots) while young they will pick up pointing even if they were not "pointing" labs. my last black lab and my dads black lab that i trained( i wasnt training them to point btw) both became excellent pointers on wild birds as well.
 
Dakotazeb said:
Wasn't there a guy on this site a few years ago by the name of William Wessels? He was starting a new dog breed called the WesslPointer. He has been crossing Labs with GSP's and English Pointers. He wanted a pointing dog with the coat of a Lab. Here's his web site for anyone interested.
Click to expand...
I remember many conversations about the wessel pointer. They mostly centered around how many pups he needed to cull, and how often he brought in new blood to loosen the line breeding a little. I'm not sure if he's still in action, starting a new breed isn't for the faint of heart or anyone with a short attention span.
 
Labradors are not that old of a breed comparatively speaking. Many older breeds out there. But like most breeds, labs are made from many other breeds. St. Johns dog (now extinct) is often credited but also hounds and pointers among others, were used in the making of labradors. The ones that may have retained the pointing trait were bred to others that may have that trait. Compound that over many many years and certain breeders focused on that. Hence, now the "pointing lab."
 
Here's a little different take on dog's that point...my Golden had a lot of time at a game farm in his youth; the trainer I used had access to the farm so I worked out well.

Max started hesitating/pointing at an early age; he now holds a point way too long and usually it's a hen. However, often he will point and nothing flies - yep, some kind of critter, skunk or porky. He's been hit by both and now he points them and I haul him off to a different field, assuming it's not a bird.

So, it's kind of a handy trait/skill and very easy to train, especially useful when there's that unwanted animal lurking in your field. This isn't about labs but a different slant on non-pointing dogs.
 
We anticipate replacing our old lab next spring. So many lab breeders now advertise "pointing labs". I've had labs for 50+ years and none were pointers. The concept actually eludes me. I'm so used to flushing labs that if my lab stopped and pointed I don't know what I would do. Obviously you can not train the pointer in them, but that seems a waste. That said, it seems a waste to buy a "pointing lab" and not develop a finished pointer. Luckily there are still kennels that breed plain old flushing labs. For those that have "pointing labs", have you finished them as pointers or do you let them break and flush, as some have noted in this thread?
 
I have a legit pointing lab from a kennel that produces some exceptional titled pointing labs. One measure of how good or legit (to nonbelievers) is the test protocols through the American Pointing Labrador Association. While their testing shares a lot of similar testing to AKC and HRC, their upland segment is what differentiates the pointing labs from your typical waterfowl lab that focuses on the retrieving aspects of the game. My Lab has been naturally pointing since just a few months old. His first experience on live birds had him locking up on quail like he had been doing it for years. After spending time with the trainer, they worked through elements of retrieving, getting him whoa broke, and force fetch. There is also emphasis on steady to flush and steady to shot. He is now a machine in the upland field With titles in both APLA and AKC. He will work towards some HRC titles this year. I am a firm believer in the pointing labs after watching for the past two years some exceptional pointing labs that I would put up against any finished pointer in the field.
 
McPheasant said:
One thing to note pointing labs" usually" are close working pointing dogs, not out of sight where you need a GPS collar to find them.
At least that's how it's been for my labs...
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Mine is usually about 35-50yds max. I like it that way.
 
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