I shot a hen!

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Yes, they automatically know, you see, they have this thing, and it's located right above their mouths (that's the end with the pearly whites, not the end the stinky stuff comes out), and right above those pearly whites there lie two orifices,, Believe it or not, they can actually breath through those orifices. And as they breath (they breath air, that's what's in the atmosphere), it's oxygen-bearing and we use it pretty regularly ourselves, it has an atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi at sea level, but drops as you rise in elevation (elevation means higher, ),that's what makes flatlanders huff and puff when they come to the hills here (please don't). Anyway, as they process this oxygen-bearing substance, they also ingest every bit of scent that they come across. Sometimes, when in the pheasant field, that means they might smell a pheasant. When they smell a pheasant and blood, or a pheasant with broken skin, they, believe it or not, ( and I am talking about all hunting dogs, not just mine, although they are brilliant and sometimes seem magical), they can process that and discern if the bird is wounded, or not. How else can they bring you a wounded bird, instead of getting on the trail of the next bird you would like to flush and letting the wounded one run off? (Maybe yours do, sorry for your rotten luck, I can recommend a great spaniel kennel where the dogs actually have a good smelling thing).So as they process all this information, with some training that we do, little things like "bird down" drills, over time, they come to know what you expect of them. What I expect is that wounded bird in my hand and I don't care how many healthy ones fly away in the process. Now, my dogs are pretty good at it, not as good as some I have seen. The guys who have better ones help me bring my game along. Kind of like when I tried to give some basic info to a rookie on how to read a dog food label and a certain person jumped on one sentence that I wrote and made me "wrong" (in his mind). Kind of like how I used to tell anyone on this forum who asked, where they could have a good hunt. (those days are over, had to deal with too many people like you as a reward for my effort). Kind of like the crap you all gave me for advising someone who accidentally killed a hen to do what you would do if a kid was watching. so, anyway the dog uses that sniffy thing to discern a healthy bird from a wounded one. Kind of like sharks in the water. (They are a predatory, salt-water fish, found in the oceans of the World. (Oceans are large bodies of salt water). Then they track that bird until they either run it down, or, less likely with a good dog, they lose scent. It happened to me last Sunday because as it gets hotter, and dryer, that sniffy thing becomes less effective, and the dog has more trouble using those magnificent orifices. So yes, my dog lost a bird, (jump on that sentence, all you wisenheimers), but it don't happen often.

As for your question regarding a bird someone else wounded, see above.

So your saying that your dogs can tell the difference between a cripple and a non-wounded bird? They some how smell different from each other? Where did you find this information because I have never heard such a thing but would love to read up further on it if you can point me to it. Now what your saying about your dogs bringing back the cripple and not flushing any other birds, congrats! That's called marking and most if not all good bird dogs are proficient in this so it's not something special and does not mean your dogs can tell the difference between a downed bird cripple or otherwise and a non cripple. And you still didn't answer the question asked earlier, about whether your dogs will bring back a cripple they find? Because in your earlier posts it states that if they don't get it up and don't hear or see you shoot they won't retrieve it? I can't see how this is a good trait as I have come across numerous birds from previous hunters and even guys in our groups that have shot birds and were not able to find them but my dog finds it 30 minutes later a couple hundred yards away and brings it to me? I'm just curious because a lot of what you are saying is not making a whole lot of sense to me and probably others? Either way it sounds like you have excellent dogs that never let you down and never make mistakes :cheers:
 
So your saying that your dogs can tell the difference between a cripple and a non-wounded bird? They some how smell different from each other? Where did you find this information because I have never heard such a thing but would love to read up further on it if you can point me to it. Now what your saying about your dogs bringing back the cripple and not flushing any other birds, congrats! That's called marking and most if not all good bird dogs are proficient in this so it's not something special and does not mean your dogs can tell the difference between a downed bird cripple or otherwise and a non cripple. And you still didn't answer the question asked earlier, about whether your dogs will bring back a cripple they find? Because in your earlier posts it states that if they don't get it up and don't hear or see you shoot they won't retrieve it? I can't see how this is a good trait as I have come across numerous birds from previous hunters and even guys in our groups that have shot birds and were not able to find them but my dog finds it 30 minutes later a couple hundred yards away and brings it to me? I'm just curious because a lot of what you are saying is not making a whole lot of sense to me and probably others? Either way it sounds like you have excellent dogs that never let you down and never make mistakes :cheers:


Of course a wounded bird smells different that a healthy one.
I don't need to see it in print. It's the same nose that can find a wounded deer that they didn't mark down.
It's the same nose that can be trained to find a dead body, as they smell a bit different than a healthy person.
They don't always get a mark on a down bird because of terrain, tall grass, etc.
That's when the "bird down" command is given and a dog pins his nose to the ground and finds the scent trail of THAT bird,
not every other healthy bird in the field. so, yes there is a difference that they can discern.
Here is my EXACT quote related to a previous poster's comment, which was:Hmm--what do they do with crippled birds? Nudge them back to you until you can pick them up--
Just asking".
My reply was: "No, smart guy, they retrieve them and deliver them to me with no further harm, like a real bird dog should. Brilliant"

As to your statement " Because in your earlier posts it states that if they don't get it up and don't hear or see you shoot they won't retrieve it?

Where, in my previous posts, does it say that? Seems you are pulling that one out of your butt.
I never said it. Feel free to find the quote, if I did. I do believe that the dog who flushes the bird, should get the retrieve. And if someone in my party shoots a bird that my dog flushed, of course it is my dog's bird to retrieve. But if his dog flushed, it's his dog's bird and mine usually disregard that, not always, sometimes I have to call them off.

Of course my dogs find other peoples cripples and return them, and THEY were not marked-down, either. In these situations, they aren't just chasing a bird that they have a visual on, they are using their nose to discern the scent trail of a wounded/dead bird.

I don't doubt that a guy who thinks it's ok for his dogs to kill pheasants doesn't understand.
 
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I don't have much problem believing a dog will do anything that's been said above, they amaze me each time I'm out with them.

I think some of the difference comes from hunting released birds and wild. I have never hunted released birds, nor has any dog I've ever had.

A dog would have a difficult time catching a wild bird, I've seen it done, mostly in deep cover or snow that the bird couldn't get out of.

A well trained dog should bring a bird back in the condition he found it, dead, wounded or perfectly healthy. Some dogs have quirks you just have to live with, some dogs have quirks that make you wonder if there is more there than we think.

I once had a lab belly crawl out for a down goose, and drag it back the same way, so as to not scare the rest of the bunch that landed down range. Believe it or not, she and I were the only ones there. I'm sticking to it. She was certainly never trained to do it, actually she was a pound dog.
 
I once had a lab belly crawl out for a down goose, and drag it back the same way, so as to not scare the rest of the bunch that landed down range. Believe it or not, she and I were the only ones there. I'm sticking to it. She was certainly never trained to do it, actually she was a pound dog.

The dog in my avatar (Hauss) would do that too. I'd take him with me to jump ducks and Canada geese. When moving in on the birds he'd get down low, quiet his breathing then sneak in with me. Fun dog:).

Anyway, pen birds vs wild; My dogs have pulled some tail feathers on live/healthy wild birds (in situations you mentioned) in the past but never caught one unless it was crippled. For the most part I was under the impression they were "bumping" the wild birds to flush. All my dogs proved me wrong on pen birds when they'd catch a few and bring them to hand alive and well. lol
 
I agree that a dog can tell the difference between wounded/dead and healthy birds. Most of our dogs couldn't retrieve half of our "kills" if this were not true.

My first dog, a Lab, picked up nine roosters left in the field by other hunters in one season. This was in Iowa when there was a possibility for nine roosters to be left in the field over a season.

This same dog kept sneaking out of our blind and bringing back crippled wood ducks on an afternoon, opening day duck hunt. A buddy and I waited for a group of slob hunters to finish shooting on an oxbow, and then went in behind them believing we could still limit out on the afternoon birds.

We limited out in an hour without firing a shot. That dog brought five crippled woodies, back to our blind and my buddy wasn't impressed. He as I, preferred to shoot his own birds. We left one duck in the reeds as the daily bag was two per hunter. I still hate the guys who hunted that slough ahead of us. They repeated this kind of activity on every game bird and deer for years. They were the worst game violators I've ever seen.

My point is, I can't understand so much grief about an unintentional hen when there are guys out there intentionally over limiting and shooting to leave lie, that an accidental hen is a drop in the bucket.
 
Found this decision from a SD appeals court where a guy claimed he was faced with a "cruel dilemma", either taking the bird, or leaving it to "waste".
You are correct, I have not seen anything that actually says it is illegal to shoot a hen. I can't believe there isn't something stating intent. As if it's not illegal to shoot a hen, what's to stop thrill killers from shooting every one they see, as long as they leave it lay? I think it is highly likely that there is a de-facto ban on hen shooting, simply because of the wording in the daily and overall possession limit, which states "three ROOSTER" pheasants, and 15 Rooster pheasants. An analogy might be that, if you have a buck deer tag, you can't shoot a doe and it's legal if you leave it lay. If I read this correctly, the court determined that leaving the bird in the field does not result in wanton waste of game. Keep in mind this particular case seemed to resolve around what several people mentioned, a dog killing a hen and delivering it to it's handler who then stashed it under the truck seat. I surmised that would be depredation, apparently the court agreed. With that in mind, it may not be that big a deal after all. Although I did see a guy report himself, I made the presumption that he was then ticketed as the wardens were not able to come to the scene. He was an out of stater as I recall, so never heard the outcome, but, again presumed he was cited. I will ask the local CO when I see him for his take.

Here is part of the court decision:

[?26.] With respect to the possession of a hen pheasant, defendants next argue that they faced a 'choice of evils? because of a statutory scheme that is impermissibly vague,? and because of that scheme, the trial court?s refusal to allow an instruction that they faced a ?choice of evils? was an abuse of discretion. In examining the issue, we look to the pertinent language of the statutes. SDCL 41-11-4 provides:

Except as provided in ? 41-11-5, no person may hunt, take, kill, ship, convey, or cause to be shipped or transported by common or private carrier to any person, either within or without the state, buy, barter, expose for sale, sell to anyone, have in possession or under control at any time, any . . . Chinese ring-necked or English pheasant . . . or any part thereof. A violation of this section is a Class 2 misdemeanor.



The exception, SDCL 41-11-5, authorizes the GF&P to establish a hunting season on any of the fowl specified in SDCL 41-11-4. SDCL 41-1-4 provides, ?No person may wantonly waste or destroy any of the birds, animals, or fish of the kinds protected by the laws of this state. A violation of this section is a Class 2 misdemeanor.?

[?27.] We need not delve into an abstract analysis of the language presented in SDCL 41-1-4; a brief look at the definition of the word ?waste? is sufficient. The American Heritage Dictionary defines ?waste? as ?[t]o use, consume, spend, or expend thoughtlessly or carelessly.? American Heritage College Dictionary 1523 (3d ed 1997). Standing alone, this definition suffices to expose the defendants? flawed logic. South Dakota law specifically prohibits the unauthorized possession of a hen pheasant. Therefore, one who would leave a hen pheasant in a field, in compliance with the law, cannot be said to have carelessly or thoughtlessly misspent that pheasant. Under such circumstances, a citizen would be obeying the laws of the State.

does this mean that someone who accidentally shoots a hen pheasant in the presence of a youth, leaves it in the field, and calls it in to self-report, has in fact reported something that is not against the law?
 
does this mean that someone who accidentally shoots a hen pheasant in the presence of a youth, leaves it in the field, and calls it in to self-report, has in fact reported something that is not against the law?

It looks as though, based on this court decision, that that may, in-fact be the case. I just sent an email to GFP for clarification, but as I mentioned, if you were trying to teach proper ethics, a call to the warden, with an honest explanation is still not improper etiquette, in my opinion. I am not sure that I completely agree with the court's decision, as I am pretty sure it wouldn't fly if we were discussing deer hunting, but there are some big differences between big and small game, so not sure if the court decision would be the same if we were talking of a licensed hunter who shot a doe and had a buck tag. One thing I agree with, and stated before on this thread, I wouldn't try to take the bird from the field.
 
I agree that a dog can tell the difference between wounded/dead and healthy birds. Most of our dogs couldn't retrieve half of our "kills" if this were not true.

My first dog, a Lab, picked up nine roosters left in the field by other hunters in one season. This was in Iowa when there was a possibility for nine roosters to be left in the field over a season.

This same dog kept sneaking out of our blind and bringing back crippled wood ducks on an afternoon, opening day duck hunt. A buddy and I waited for a group of slob hunters to finish shooting on an oxbow, and then went in behind them believing we could still limit out on the afternoon birds.

We limited out in an hour without firing a shot. That dog brought five crippled woodies, back to our blind and my buddy wasn't impressed. He as I, preferred to shoot his own birds. We left one duck in the reeds as the daily bag was two per hunter. I still hate the guys who hunted that slough ahead of us. They repeated this kind of activity on every game bird and deer for years. They were the worst game violators I've ever seen.

My point is, I can't understand so much grief about an unintentional hen when there are guys out there intentionally over limiting and shooting to leave lie, that an accidental hen is a drop in the bucket.

I agree entirely. Animals are hip to a lot more than we think. Did you see "Sgt Reckless on the news yesterday? Sgt Reckless was a horse, bought by US Marines in Korea to haul ordinance to remote outposts. The handlers said they showed the horse the route three times and from there the horse did the mission on his own, without a marine handler, dozens of times. The horse did this in-spite of being wounded twice, and has two purple Hearts to show for it.

And good on you for biting the bullet and counting other slobs birds against your limit. That is the kind of etiquette we need in the sport. I do the same when my dog finds someone else's lost cripple.
 
On a separate, and funny note. My buddy who is a hardcore elk hunter, using horses, lost his I phone a couple weeks ago, in the back country. He went home and got his Lab, ( I really do love them, even though we rib each-other about our favorite breeds). Well, the horses are his buddies, so, of course he knows their scent well. My buddy put that dog on the horses scent trail and had his I phone back in hand an hour later.
 
Ok, here is the word for word transcript from the Black Hills Regional Supervisor, that he just texted me:

"Call into us, it's still a violation and will be addressed accordingly. If we discover the violation on our own, through a check, then it's hard to distinguish intent of the crime. Typically at that point you will be charged with a violation that includes revocation of hunting privileges and not just a fine. Each situation is different and handled upon review of the facts".

Again, this is verbatim from a supervisor at GFP, not my opinion. If there is anyone who wants to argue the point further, they will do it without me, as now they are up against the take of a badged Conservation officer.
 
"Call into us, it's still a violation and will be addressed accordingly. If we discover the violation on our own, through a check, then it's hard to distinguish intent of the crime. Typically at that point you will be charged with a violation that includes revocation of hunting privileges and not just a fine. Each situation is different and handled upon review of the facts".

This seems to fit the narrative of "Grey areas" and "depends on the officer/situation".

Not calling it in could cost you. Calling it in could cost you. Not calling it in may not cost you. Calling it in may not cost you.

Shoot straight fellas and try to keep those birds out of the sun.;)
 
Of course a wounded bird smells different that a healthy one.
I don't need to see it in print. It's the same nose that can find a wounded deer that they didn't mark down.
It's the same nose that can be trained to find a dead body, as they smell a bit different than a healthy person.
They don't always get a mark on a down bird because of terrain, tall grass, etc.
That's when the "bird down" command is given and a dog pins his nose to the ground and finds the scent trail of THAT bird,
not every other healthy bird in the field. so, yes there is a difference that they can discern.
Here is my EXACT quote related to a previous poster's comment, which was:Hmm--what do they do with crippled birds? Nudge them back to you until you can pick them up--
Just asking".
My reply was: "No, smart guy, they retrieve them and deliver them to me with no further harm, like a real bird dog should. Brilliant"

As to your statement " Because in your earlier posts it states that if they don't get it up and don't hear or see you shoot they won't retrieve it?

Where, in my previous posts, does it say that? Seems you are pulling that one out of your butt.
I never said it. Feel free to find the quote, if I did. I do believe that the dog who flushes the bird, should get the retrieve. And if someone in my party shoots a bird that my dog flushed, of course it is my dog's bird to retrieve. But if his dog flushed, it's his dog's bird and mine usually disregard that, not always, sometimes I have to call them off.

Of course my dogs find other peoples cripples and return them, and THEY were not marked-down, either. In these situations, they aren't just chasing a bird that they have a visual on, they are using their nose to discern the scent trail of a wounded/dead bird.

I don't doubt that a guy who thinks it's ok for his dogs to kill pheasants doesn't understand.

He did not "pull it out of his butt", Rancho you said it right here:
#81 10-25-2016, 04:48 PM
"I watch my spaniels set birds to flight with a nudge of their noses, all the time, they could grab them if they wanted to, but they know the game, no BANG, no retrieve"
 
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He did not "pull it out of his butt", Rancho you said it right here:
#81 10-25-2016, 04:48 PM
"I watch my spaniels set birds to flight with a nudge of their noses, all the time, they could grab them if they wanted to, but they know the game, no BANG, no retrieve"

Really? Is that what I said, because the text you pasted here, looks a hell of a lot different than that? I don't see the words "get it up", or "hear", or "see" anywhere in that statement.

I think you are a few beers to the good tonight, so I will interpret what I said, in simple, small words: The fun for any good flushing dog, is to set a bird to flight, hear the gun report, hopefully see it fall, then the reward is the retrieve.
My dogs have little interest in catching pheasants. They have NO interest in killing them. If one of my dogs did grab a healthy pheasant, it would be delivered to hand in the same condition it was in when the dog grabbed it. It would not be crushed in the dogs jaws, no matter how much spurring it did. A dog that knows how to grab a pheasant properly seldom gets spurred.
 
Man I am learning a bunch about retrievers on this thread. Makes me rethink the last 40 years of hunting pheasants and running dogs. I think I will leave my dog at home on the couch this year. He is far too high energy and aggressive to be hunting those poor birds. But I will refrain from saying anything bad about anyone else or their dogs and I don't want to get on the wrong side of JMAC. Besides It certainly has been proven that I know very little about bird hunting and may just sell my guns and take up crocheting or quilt working. Maybe I can make that mean dog a hat or booties or something. Anybody have any requests?
 
Man I am learning a bunch about retrievers on this thread. Makes me rethink the last 40 years of hunting pheasants and running dogs. I think I will leave my dog at home on the couch this year. He is far too high energy and aggressive to be hunting those poor birds. But I will refrain from saying anything bad about anyone else or their dogs and I don't want to get on the wrong side of JMAC. Besides It certainly has been proven that I know very little about bird hunting and may just sell my guns and take up crocheting or quilt working. Maybe I can make that mean dog a hat or booties or something. Anybody have any requests?

Yes, dummy up.

I am not talking about retrievers, I am talking about flushing dogs. There is a big difference.

I would sell my guns, too, if I had killer dogs, I mean, why buy shotgun shells when your dogs can do the killing for you?
 
Really? Is that what I said, because the text you pasted here, looks a hell of a lot different than that? I don't see the words "get it up", or "hear", or "see" anywhere in that statement.

I think you are a few beers to the good tonight, so I will interpret what I said, in simple, small words: The fun for any good flushing dog, is to set a bird to flight, hear the gun report, hopefully see it fall, then the reward is the retrieve.
My dogs have little interest in catching pheasants. They have NO interest in killing them. If one of my dogs did grab a healthy pheasant, it would be delivered to hand in the same condition it was in when the dog grabbed it. It would not be crushed in the dogs jaws, no matter how much spurring it did. A dog that knows how to grab a pheasant properly seldom gets spurred.

Rancho,

I was and am currently not trying to be a jerk on this thread. Your post I quoted for you says "no bang, no retrieve". That is the quote guys have been roughing you up over. If your dogs really won't retrieve a bird unless you shoot it, and that's how you want your dogs to work, great. I think it's great whenever anyone's dogs do things that make them happy. I think there are quite a few guys on here that don't believe that's how your dog operates because they have not seen dogs work that way.

Now all that said, I honestly can't remember any post of yours that stand out from before this thread. Which makes me think you have generally been a pleasant enough member here. I don't know what changed for this thread but you have been acting in a way very few mothers would be proud of. In a way I doubt you act when interacting with others on a daily basis. It is uncalled for on this generally positive forum. If you want to get into fights on a forum go join Doublegun or a duck hunting forum, if you want to be a member here treat others and their opinions with some respect.
 
David0311

Yes, dummy up.

I am not talking about retrievers, I am talking about flushing dogs. There is a big difference.

I would sell my guns, too, if I had killer dogs, I mean, why buy shotgun shells when your dogs can do the killing for you?

WHAT????

Please Please inform those of us who lack your superior knowledge--

The difference between dogs that are flushers and those that are retrievers--I have always thought my labs---were both..:

So after over 50 years of hunting I would like to know where I've been wrong

You have not informed use what type of dogs that you have that are so perfect and magical:eek:

Following that maybe you should back away from the computer and go upstairs and see if your mom has your meds. and cookies and milk ready
 
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