Ethanol Subsidies Ends

oldandnew said:
You bring up an excellent point. Why is compressed natural gas never discussed in the energy equation? It's proven technology, we have a good start on a delivery infrastucture, we have more than we can use in reserves, it's domestic production so the dollars stay at home, it burns much cleaner than alternatives, how did this idea get left at the starting gate. When I was a kid we had propane powered Minnie Mo's, if you bought in quantity and in the summer, it was literally pennies a gallon. More now but still domestic and clean burning. I still have a tank with a filler hose!
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Old & New

I must have missed this post somehow. I agree with you 100% with NG. I see it as a win-win situation. If the Government can fund most of the infrastructure for Ethanol production they need to do the same for NG industry. I think the problem is what you said, “it’s proven technology" leaves very few wiggle room for another Solyndria scandal and wasteful government spending of taxpayers monies.
 
UGUIDE said:
Excellent Discussion!!

Enter in "The Keystone Project" Wadda ya think?

Here's what little I know:
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keystone.jpg


:cheers::laugh:
 
oldandnew said:
You bring up an excellent point. Why is compressed natural gas never discussed in the energy equation? It's proven technology, we have a good start on a delivery infrastucture, we have more than we can use in reserves, it's domestic production so the dollars stay at home, it burns much cleaner than alternatives, how did this idea get left at the starting gate. When I was a kid we had propane powered Minnie Mo's, if you bought in quantity and in the summer, it was literally pennies a gallon. More now but still domestic and clean burning. I still have a tank with a filler hose!
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oldandnew, I do not have an answer to why CNG was left at the gate. I know you were probably not expecting me to know the answer.

I will tell you my opinion for the reason. The Corn industry and Ethanol industry have a better lobby for one. They have been at this for years, it was not to many years ago when I was being told NG is running out....Now we have a proven boat load of the stuff.
As anyone who may have read some of my past posts I am NOT a fan of lobbyist.
Also their is the issues of corn ethanol is easy to make (real basic science)...it reduces smog. Which for some cities is a priority.
Very easy to mix with current gasoline to fix the above issue using current gas vehicles. Yes NG would reduce smog as well, but it can not be mixed with gas as you I am sure well know.
oldandnew please not I am not saying that corn ethanol is the answer at all. I am 100% against corn ethanol.
I do feel some forms of ethanol are doable for energy independence along with other forms of domestically produced energy.

CNG is one thing that SHOULD be pursued. It is not the only thing, it is not the best thing, although it is a whole lot better than oil from a non friendly country. Also for what it is worth a current fuel injected gas car can be converted to burn CNG and still burn gasoline for a couple of grand. Not cheap but it can be done.

Leaving our country's transportation dependent on one type of energy is DUMB. It forms a monopoly which leaves us in the current energy mess we have today. I am not a proponent of one type of base energy.
 
morrismike said:
How many tractors on those farms are running on ethanol? How many of the plants making various farm commodities and those distalling the ethanol use ethanol for that energy source. The saudi princes are getting theirs one way or another. Ethanol is farm and bunny hugger politics nothing more. There are process available to make gasoline, ethanol, diesel, etc. from garbage/coal/stm etc. and that may be a viable source of energy in the very near future.

This is the future of ethanol and it doesn't involve corn.
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Coskata_Inc
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morrismike, I am only replying to this post because you quoted mine. I do not feel you are attempting to "target" me nor am I attempting to annoy you or anyone on this forum.

morrismike said:
Ethanol is farm and bunny hugger politics nothing more.
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I would agree if we are talking about ethanol produced from farm commodities. Which I believe we are in agreement on. The science to produce it is old and very inefficient when compared to other ways of making ethanol. Not trying to be "nit picky" I just do not want a miss understanding.

morrismike said:
There are process available to make gasoline, ethanol, diesel, etc. from garbage/coal/stm etc. and that may be a viable source of energy in the very near future.
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I agree 100% with you on this one. I also know that ConAgra Foods has the proven technology to produce actual crude oil from poultry by products.

So the next question that will often come up from a normal person is. If this is all true why are these things not being done today???

The answer is simple and been shown to happen repeatedly.

Crude oil prices go up. Gasoline goes up. New technology is developed to provide alternatives. These technologies are brought to market.
As long as crude oil prices stay at a certain level it is economically feasible to bring new technologies to market. BUT the crude oil market must stay at these levels for new technologies to create a profit for the new companies.

So what does an industry that has massive amounts of money and a monopoly on a commodity. A government(s) unwilling to enforce anti trust laws do when new technologies are brought to market.

FLOOD the market with the commodity driving prices lower than it cost to produce it (The Federal Trade Commission calls this dumping and it is illegal).

Then the new companies and their technologies along with the patients they hold can be purchase as the new companies go into bankruptcy court.

Soooo the main players now own the new proven technology but they buy it at a bargain basement price.
For example http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=3050409&contentId=7028373 go to the 1973-1984 time line history.

Than in 1988:
1988-1991 AMOCO/Enron used Solarex patents to sue ARCO Solar out of the business of a-Si (see Solarex Corp.(Enron/Amoco) v.Arco Solar, Inc.Ddel, 805 Fsupp 252 Fed Digest. )

And that is why it is difficult for a small start up company to bring a sustainable fuel source to market in the US.
They are driven out of the market once they do the research into new technologies.

Many thanks to the feds for doing their job, but enjoy those perks the lobbyist buy ya. (heavy sarcasm intended)
 
OKIEGunner said:
Old & New

I must have missed this post somehow. I agree with you 100% with NG. I see it as a win-win situation. If the Government can fund most of the infrastructure for Ethanol production they need to do the same for NG industry. I think the problem is what you said, “it’s proven technology" leaves very few wiggle room for another Solyndria scandal and wasteful government spending of taxpayers monies.
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NG can be converted into gasoline so there is no reason to compress it for car fuel.
 
morrismike said:
NG can be converted into gasoline so there is no reason to compress it for car fuel.
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The Synfuels GTL process got a fair amount of media attention 3-4 years back but have any plants actually come on line or are scheduled to come on line in the North America? Even then the owners of the technology were not talking about mass gasoline production. They were targeting the collection of natural gas that was typically flaired off in remote oil drilling operations, converting it to gasoline and then transporting it down the pre-existing crude oil pipelines.

NG in general:

Natural gas as a transportaion fuel has some issues. Many of the "abundant new reserves" must be hydaulically fractured. The "fracking" process requires extensive water use as much as 5 million gallons in a 2-5 day fracking operation. The wastewater from the fracking process has high levels of Total Dissolved Solids including salt which can effect water quality in rivers & streams when not disposed of properly.

The natural gas pipeline system is big and well established but most of the distribution system where you could actually access the product at many locations is low pressure delivery. This means expensive compressor stations would need to be built in order to fill a vehichle.

NG is a pretty low density fuel and on-vehichle storage takes up a lot of space. Range would be an issue especially if fill locations are expensive and few and far between because of station costs. If bugs could be worked out in regards to fill locations NG does have real potential as a fuel for small commuter vehichles. It may have even more potential as fuel for mass transit where buses, trains etc can be fueled in a central or static location.

Propane is a more dense fuel and is therefore a better option for trucking, heavy equipment etc. but propane is only a small by-product of the natural gas stripping process or the petroleum refining process. As an example propane typically represents less than 5% of total yield from natural gas collected at the well site. On a large scale (trucking, long haul transportaion) the supply could be a real issue even though the delivery infrastructure is currently better developed than CNG.

Having said all of the above I see NG as one of the best alternative fuel options out there. Relatively speaking it requires little processing/stripping before it can be used as an energy source. The transportation (pipeline) infrastructure is largely in place and very efficient. We have large domestic supplies. We are likely technologically much closer to overcoming some of the above issues and making NG cost viable and also environmentally viable as transportaion fuel source vs. biofuels.
 
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The natural gas pipelines are in place and the NG is already being compressed.
In the production areas there are compression plants. Sending the NG on it's way faster and making much greater volume.

As you travel out in oil country at night the sky is lit up with all the NG being burned off the crude oil. Going to waste, probably enough energy waste to supply a large city just from ND wells alone. So why don't they compress it at the site, save it? NG compressors are available.
Probably more NG going to waste then all the ethanol produced in the US.:eek:
 
On the subject of CNG.

The city I live in is in the process of converting the mass transit bus fleet into CNG users.

For city driven commuter cars, yea I think it is already a viable alternative, long trips are currently less viable.

Here is a link with maps to public CNG filling stations and prices for the CNG.
http://www.cngnow.com/stations/Pages/information.aspx

In my view. Almost anything that can be done to break the current gasoline/diesel from crude oil monopoly is a great thing.
 
A couple of quick searches. One there is only one commercial CNG refill station in Kansas City metro area, and it's around 40 miles from me. The current price is $1.19 cents per gallon. Which is cheap compared to other prices quoted across the country. There is a unit called Phill which is designed as a home unit, and refills off your existing residential gas line. cost is around $4500.00 with a $2000 federal tax credit. It takes an overnight charge to refill at the residential unit. I have not done, nor am I sure I'm capable of doing the math to determine payback or lack thereof. Maybe somebody here who knows the BTU value of CNG, expected mileage, etc., knows the answer.
 
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mnmthunting said:
The natural gas pipelines are in place and the NG is already being compressed.
In the production areas there are compression plants. Sending the NG on it's way faster and making much greater volume.
.:eek:
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NG is generally compressed to 1000 PSI and above (varys by pipeline operator and area) for interstate transmission/transportation only. This is not the pressure that it is delivered to the end user. There would be enormous costs associated with building a far reaching NG distribution system (major system conversion with high operating pressure steel pipe) that could operate at a PSI capable of filling CNG tanks without compression. Not to mention the public safety & regulatory issues associated with high PSI gas mains operating all over large population centers.

As for home compression units. My guess is that fill capacity is very limited. The gas that enters your home (post meter) at best operates at 2 PSI and usually operates at less than 1/2 pound all within a pipe diameter less than 1".
 
oldandnew said:
A couple of quick searches. One there is only one commercial CNG refill station in Kansas City metro area, and it's around 40 miles from me. The current price is $1.19 cents per gallon. Which is cheap compared to other prices quoted across the country. There is a unit called Phill which is designed as a home unit, and refills off your existing residential gas line. cost is around $4500.00 with a $2000 federal tax credit. It takes an overnight charge to refill at the residential unit. I have not done, nor am I sure I'm capable of doing the math to determine payback or lack thereof. Maybe somebody here who knows the BTU value of CNG, expected mileage, etc., knows the answer.
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oldandnew to figure out the answer to your question. One must first understand a couple of things about CNG.

CNG sold at a retail outlet is measured by "Gasoline Gallon Equivalent" or GGE
Which is a fancy way of saying the energy contained in a "gallon of CNG" is the same as a US gallon of gasoline. Energy in NG being measured in units of Therms.
To make things easier for the average joe to understand. CNG is sold by GGE and a GGE will get you the same mileage as a gallon of gasoline. The energy content is the same.
If for instance Ethanol were measured the same way, then the liquid gallons of Ethanol needed to equate to a gallon of gasoline would be more since Ethanol does not get as good of mileage as gasoline.

I really hope I did not muddy the water to much for you. Bottom line, the cost shown on that map link for CNG is what you would compare for a gallon of gasoline.....the energy equivalent is the same.

So taking that information. Lets assume you have a vehicle that gets 15 mpg.
Lets assume you drive 1,000 miles a month.
Given current prices of gasoline in my town you are spending about $207.33 for gasoline a month.
Given the current prices for CNG in my town ($1.87) you would be spending $124.66 per month.

It would take roughly 31 months to break even for the Phil Station.

Given the conversion costs to convert a gasoline burner to a CNG the return is higher.

If one goes with a pure CNG conversion, those must be done via a EPA certified system. They also receive a tax credit

If one uses a dual fuel system, they are less expensive and currently do not require a EPA certified installation. They receive no tax credit.

hope that helps ya some

I made a mistake and forgot something. The actual break even for the Phil Station would be sooner. I was going off what CNG cost at a filling station.

In reality you would need to take the cost per Therm then multiply that by 1.14. 1 gge = 114,118.8 BTU's = 1.14 Therms
 
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Live2Hunt,

Thanks for the complex math class, very easy to understand. I personally have been looking into adding on a CNG conversion system for my truck (2006 Duramax). I am close too making this a reality. My cost per gallon is $0.78 in Apache, OK. So my payback will be much quicker. We have NG lines within a mile of the house, just wish I had it right at the house, as I would not hesitate to go with a Phil Station for convenience sake.

For long trips I can always still use BIO 5-20, ULSD Diesel. Or Kerosene if need be. I know several people doing the same thing and I see it as a win-win for me.

I think you will be seeing the distribution infrastructure grow overtime as long as the big oil industry does not interfere.
 
OKIEGunner said:
Live2Hunt,

Thanks for the complex math class, very easy to understand. I personally have been looking into adding on a CNG conversion system for my truck (2006 Duramax). I am close too making this a reality. My cost per gallon is $0.78 in Apache, OK. So my payback will be much quicker. We have NG lines within a mile of the house, just wish I had it right at the house, as I would not hesitate to go with a Phil Station for convenience sake.

For long trips I can always still use BIO 5-20, ULSD Diesel. Or Kerosene if need be. I know several people doing the same thing and I see it as a win-win for me.

I think you will be seeing the distribution infrastructure grow overtime as long as the big oil industry does not interfere.
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I am betting someone makes a nice small compressor that could be tied into your residential gas. If you had a storage tank large enough the compressor could be a tiny thing. What kind of pressure does it take? I'm guessing you'd need a large tank about 20% higher than what is stored in your truck and a small one at 200%. I'm sensing a business opportunity here (won't pursue due to liability though
 
morrismike said:
I am betting someone makes a nice small compressor that could be tied into your residential gas. If you had a storage tank large enough the compressor could be a tiny thing. What kind of pressure does it take? I'm guessing you'd need a large tank about 20% higher than what is stored in your truck and a small one at 200%. I'm sensing a business opportunity here (won't pursue due to liability though
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A typical CNG conversion for a common-rail diesel engine still uses a small percentage of diesel fuel to initiate the combustion. Research shows that running the engine on 80% CNG and 20% diesel offers the best mileage gains and performance. I am looking at Supplementing or Fogging the CNG into the intake, after the air filter, and before the turbo. The big drawback for me will be loss of bed space for the CNG tank. Farmers many years ago used propane on tractors to reduce operating costs. Right now CNG is 1/3 the price of LPG.
 
We have cng Ford f150 and freightliner 10 wheel dump trucks where I work. At 3600 psi the fords take about 18 gallon equivalent and get about 10 mpg with no power at all and they run like crap! The dump trucks are worthless and completely gutless with 14 tons of asphalt on board and you can't ever get to far away from a filling station as they won't run on much less than 1000 psi. Pure crap, I hate those trucks.
 
QuailHound,

I’d be willing to bet that those trucks are factory original CNG or converted Gasoline motors. A Gasoline-engine is designed to run on 100-percent CNG. There is a big difference on Diesel motors that runs on a mixture of CNG & Diesel. You can actually expect to see some gains in horse power.
 
Some other things to consider on the PHILL station.

It must be installed to code and vented etc. Seen costs range from $1500 to $2500.

Varies by source but the cost to run the compressor during fill time is at least $.30 give or take per GGE.

On the first generation Phill the compressor was good for about 6000 hours before it must be sent back to the manufacturer to be refurbished. $2000.00 plus shipping.

Quick search on later generation units is inconclusive on expected life of the compressor.

The compressor fills the CNG tanks at a rate of .4 GGE per hour so a 10-hour overnight fill would only net four gallons.

Some information indicates the tax credit at only $1000 currently.

The manufacturer of the Phill station went belly-up in 2008 and only came back on line a year or so ago.
 
This may turn into a rant.

OKIEGunner, you are welcomed about the math thingy. Sound like you live outside a city so yea I guess the Phil Station might be the way to go. Myself I live inside a city and the Phil Station was not real appealing to me, partly because of some of what Downtown Bang accurately pointed out.

As for running a diesel with a fogger. Yea I know the combination of the two fuels does increase power and efficiency. I love my old diesel, I am currently running a gas burner and will be going back to a Cummins very soon. On the loss of storage space for the CNG holding tank. In my old 98 Dodge, their was room under the bed of the truck and inside the frame of the truck to install a 12gal GGE tank. I figured one could make some sort of steel cage to protect the tank if they so desired. Similar to how a school bus fuel tank is protected. The clearances worked out well because the Dodge had a long narrow diesel tank.

quail hound, I have read that about gutless wonders in regards to other vehicles that come factory equipped for CNG only. No idea as to why that is.

I have no doubt that as demand grows for CNG (and it will) someone will figure out how to modify LP pumps located at most every truck stop so that they can also disperse CNG.

I do not believe the CNG is the perfect solution, but I do feel it is a great alternative to gasoline. As long as big oil is NOT allowed to foul it up.

Sure is nice to come to a forum where civil discussions can take place. Gives me hope that not all people are turning into mindless drones.
:cheers::cheers:
 
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