Auto Handgun

[birdman652001]

Okay guys, I just got back from the gun shop. They did not stock the Sig so I looked at the Glock 22 and 23, the Springfield XD and the S&W M&P. All in .40 S&W. They were quite similar and price about the same. Not a huge difference in feel between them but if I would have had to choose right then it probably would have been the S&W due to the way it felt. I don't think anyone has mentioned the M&P on this thread yet. Thoughts?

I did though about M&P in the first page i believe, if i didnt, then it must of been a edit i did.


M&P is a law enforcement gun as well like Glocks. I dont know anything about them.. what was the safety on those?

you have to fit a gun and get the comfort to fit your lifestyle, and grip.

did you shoot the M&P?

 

[Dakotazeb]

No, didn't shoot any of them. SoDak Sports doesn't have a range. I should get down to Sioux Falls and visit Gary's gun shop and see if I can't fire a few difference 40's.

 

[onpoint]

Difference in safety's

Glock, pretty simply apply pressure to the trigger and as you do the safety is disengaged. Not much of a safety, anybody who's planning on killing you with your gun can do so by just pulling the trigger. How about a little kid, if by some unknown reason gets a hold of your loaded handgun. He/she is far more likely to be able to just pull the trigger and fire the gun before being discovered with the weapon, with a Clock. Not that he or she should ever have gain access in the first place but kids can and are resourceful.

Beretta type safety(hammer block)

With a hammer block safety, the gun can not be fired unless the safety is manually disengaged. You can pull the trigger all day and the gun will NOT fire. Personally, I'm much more comfortable with this kind of safety feature in a firearm.

Would you hunt with a fellow who only had the Clock type safety on his/her shotgun in the Pheasant fields? Not me!!

For any benefit one claims to have with the Clock trigger safety in a combat type situation. One can find a draw back also. Would you rather be rolling around on the ground with a guy who has your Glock or with a guy who has a handgun with a hammer block safety? I'll take the gun with a hammer block safety everytime. Also, a kid trying to fire the gun would find it much more difficult to fire with the thumb operated hammer block safety.

Another safety feature to look for.Is will the gun fire without the magazine in it. If one is about to loose possession of the gun. All one has to do is slide your thumb over the mag release as the gun is being pulled from your hand. Once the magazine is unsecured the gun is useless to a attacker. Also, again a kid will find it tougher to operate the gun and make it functional with this safety feature.

Everybody has a right to their opinion and I'll respect all but this is mine. My father was Asst. chief of police in my home town and I'm a hunting partner of numerous HP, deputy and C.O's from Mn, SD and other states.

Here's a example and my belief is, this officer had a department issue Glock. IMO, had he had a gun with a thumb operated hammer block safety. things could have been much more different. Sad deal!

http://kstp.com/news/stories/s1129156.shtml

 

[birdman652001]

onpoint, EVERY Gun is dangerous to a kid. Kids can figure it out... fast. they will find a way to get the safety off. They know more about computers and new tvs than we older people do. Even revolvers have stronger trigger and yet kids can pull them.


But in your eariler post, you said GLOCK does NOT have a safety. now you say they do?

I do remember a freshly new officer 2 days on the job from a year of academy training come home, (they were issued berettas) and he hugged his wife, then dropped to the floor, his 6 year old boy at the table had pulled the trigger. maybe its because most officers leave the safety off? i dunno. As an officer, I rather have it ready to fire than have to put the safety down THEN fire.


no matter where you go, as myself in Law Enforcement, every GUN is dangerous regardless the safety feature. even Berettas are dangerous guns, Just because you got the safety switch doesnt make your gun safe from all kids.

you can say all you want, ANY guns, including rifles, shotguns are NOT safe.

Police rather have a quick drawing guns than to have a switch, Im left hand, i can NOT have a trigger finger be doing the safety buttons, hence Glocks dont need an EXTRA finger to turn off the safety. if we had berettas, they wont and probaly wouldnt spend that extra dollar to get me a left hand model. you are issued what they have. period. no one gets fanicer.

in our shoot quals, we are to be able to fire our gun within 3 secs at point blank from holster 3 shots. draw out and fire without sighting or lining up a shot... every day, im 2-4 feet from a person, if they pull out a knife, i need reaction and a ready to fire with a touch of a trigger to deactivate the safety, I dont need a gun that i have to manually turn off the safety, THEN fire. i'd be dead/stabbed with a beretta.

besides.. 92-93 beretta? PD wont issue an old gun today. every gun around here gets changed to NEW guns of the same model (as berettas probably dont have the same exact model as yours) glocks.

im not gonna start a fight with you, you have it as a personal gun, you like it, great! kudos to you, BUT i wouldnt recommend it to anyone.

My aunt and uncle are both in the army, they arent issued a Beretta, they had one back in the 90's, I think they carry the Kimber 1911s now. they hated the berettas they had.

I personally like the Sigma series, but they are bulkier than the Glocks but i like how they handle but thats my opinion, you have yours.


youre not prohibited to suggest a beretta if you like. I wont throw out your post for posting a suggestion.

Even H&K are a big line guns, from statements before, they misfire... my Sigma has misfired. my Glock has NOT misfired, and so far i have heard SIGs and Springfield hasnt mis fired. I have heard of Berettas mis firing.

berettas used to be popluar for law enforcement back in the early 90's.. but sadly, they arent today. you have the 92 model, i suggest you keep it and dont get a newer beretta. you will be dissapointed.

S&W has the very same feature as what you said, you could pull the trigger all you want but wont fire til you turn off the safety. what happens That ONE day.. you show your friend, "watch this!! i can pull the trigger and it wont fire" ( you mistakely forget to turn on the safety) and (GUN FIRES).... shocking.

TREAT every gun as if it is loaded regardless if you know its empty. first thing i do is take the magazine out, then check the chamber myself. makes me wonder. seriously, YOUR trigger finger is your safety. your common sense is your safety. NOT the gun. you cant blame the gun if it goes off. you blame who was holding it and who fired it.

I watched Pawn Stars, a guy brought in an OLD west 30-30 gun. the first thing the pawn owner did was to check the chamber, it spit out a spent round. the guy was shocked and didnt know there was a spent round in there.

ive been to a gun shop.. they didnt even check to see if the chamber was empty, just handed it to me. I was amazed,

this is just an opinion. not a personal attack. everyone has their preferences. you can suggest a beretta if you want, i wont hold that against you.


another thing, I will NEVER put reloads in my pistol of any kind. i dont care what, i will NEVER use reloads. maybe in my shotgun or AR for practice but never when im on duty so no worries about glocks getting reloads in my gun. i refuse to do so. i dont care if they mess up glocks.. i wont do reloads.

i was asked about the beretta PX4 "Storm", I spoke my piece, if you have shot it before, speak up! someone wants an opinion about it.

 

[birdman652001]

Here's a example and my belief is, this officer had a department issue Glock. IMO, had he had a gun with a thumb operated hammer block safety. things could have been much more different. Sad deal!

http://kstp.com/news/stories/s1129156.shtml

you know for a fact that they carried the GLOCK? I failed to read that the officer had a GLOCK. as far as i know for Minneapolis area was Berettas 92F.

edit confirmed, Minneapolis/St. Paul PD does carry the Beretta guns it was a Hammer block safety gun that killed that officer. Not a Glock. EDITED


there lots of fallen officers that were shot by their own guns and believe me, not all guns were glock, some were so called a "hammer block safety" kind of gun.

 

[birdman652001]

Everybody has a right to their opinion and I'll respect all but this is mine. My father was Asst. chief of police in my home town and I'm a hunting partner of numerous HP, deputy and C.O's from Mn, SD and other states.

Really? whats your name? Im around HPs, BIA Federal officers, Co Sheriffs, Police, US Marshal, FBI, in fact one of the FBI agent from Rapid City is a dear classmate of mine so we hang out alot, and other agencies in SD and MN as well.

 

[birdshooter]

Already have the best of the breeds, Brittanys. If I was going to get a gsp I might as well get a Ruger semi-auto too!

hey now.. i resent that. :cheers:

Yeah, them is fightin words.....

 

[birdman652001]

Yeah, them is fightin words.....

LOL... well im not against brittanys.

its like how ford and chevy battle nascar wins. ones gonna win one race while the next one will win the second race.

 

[onpoint]

birdman, not going to get into it. I just stated my opinion.

Could you please post your link to where the info can be found on the issue guns for Maplewood P.D.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M9_pistol

For those interested, here is a little facts on the Beretta 92. Yes they are not some new space age design but they are more proven then just about any other brand or model of side arm.

Quote
"The 92F survived exposure to temperatures from -40°F to 140°F, being soaked in salt water, being dropped repeatedly on concrete, and being buried in sand, mud, and snow. Additionally, the 92F proved a MRBF (mean rounds before failure) of 35,000 rounds. That number is equivalent to five or six times the pistol's service life."

The u.s military is still using and buying them today.
Quote
"The M9 is the standard pistol of the U.S. Army and Air Force Security Forces, and the M9A1 is the standard pistol of the U.S. Marines.[7] A large number of M9s and M9A1s were ordered in 2006. During the 2009 SHOT Show, Beretta announced it had received a US$220 million contract for the delivery of 450,000 M9s and M9A1s to the U.S. military, within a five-year span.[8]"

 

[birdman652001]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock

Glock handguns are currently used by a majority of U.S. law enforcement agencies.[2] Glock handguns are also very popular with civilians for personal protection and practical shooting, and the company sponsors a competitive shooting team which travels worldwide.[3] As of 2007, Glock produces more than two dozen models of handguns in seven different calibers.

Glock handguns are common sidearms among law enforcement agencies and military organizations around the world. The popularity of Glock pistols can be attributed to a number of factors. They are very reliable, being able to function under extreme conditions and to fire a wide range of ammunition types. The simplicity of the Glock design contributes to this reliability, as it contains a relatively small number of components (nearly half as many as the typical handgun) making maintenance and repair easier.

Glock's Torture test.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

heres a link to the toture test for Glock.. 15K rounds into it. even RAN over it on hard surface and still functioned.

He even had a guy turn in his H&K USP gun and it only had 1K round into it, did the torture test and the H&K fail miserably.




Glock VS Beretta quotes:

What are you going to use this for? If its for LE work, use what ever one you feel better shooting. Or which one you hit the target more with. The beretta is the standard issue Military sidearm. However, if you check the US Special Forces no longer carry the baretta. The new weapon is the Sig.

I would recommend the Glock over the Berreta. I have been issued Berettas, I have one now (in the closet, where it belongs) and wont carry it. You'll find the Glock more user friendly and leather gear easier to come by for the Glock. Good luck, stay safe.

I just got off active duty from Army Special Forces last year and we carried the Beretta 92F. There were no plans to change over to the Sig at that time. Army counter-intel agents, however, got issued Sigs. As to which is better, I feel that Glocks are just about as accurate out of the box as any pistol. I also like the same trigger pull every time on the Glock. The 92F is a double action/single action pistol with a huge difference between the first and second trigger pulls. In addition, the safety lever/decocking lever on the slide is in a really poor position, epsecially if you have small hands. In my opinion, the 92F is a solid duty weapon, however there are many pistols I would choose over it......including any of the Glocks.
FYI, the fact that Army Special Forces carries a weapon is not necessarily a sign that it is a great piece of equipment. 90% of equipment issed in Army Special Forces is equipment that will eventually be issued to the rest of the Army, especially when it comes to huge procurement contracts like weapons. Now stuff like weapons optics is somewhat different and we definitely got some stuff issued that the rest of the Army would never see. Nevertheless, when SF gets equipment, the rest of the Army gets it (depending on what it is), 2-5 years later. SF carries the 92F b/c that's what the Army ordered for the whole Army, not b/c the SF powers that be consider it a good weapon.

Amen to what said in the above post.

The glock is one of the most dependable semi - autos on the market in all of the environmental conditions described above. The same consistant trigger pull every time. It's just a great weapon. Period. End of story.

I can't think of a more durable gun than a glock. Both are well made and I wouldn't feel out gunned with either. But if its durability you want, go with the glock.

I think with this forum, you will find more guys and gals on here that will lean towards the Glock. I have had a Glock 17 for several years now. I wouldn't trade it for the world. Its my personal gun and I have had many offers from friends to buy it because I have 3 hi-cap mags. Sorry its MINE! Just curious, you mentioned how water affects the firearm. Do you plan on taking it with you in the wave pool frequently? LOL Just kiddin ya. My vote is for the Glock.

Never carried/ Glock - owned one for about 3 days though (it went bye-bye for my Colt CCO) but carried the 92 for 5+ years on the ocean and never had any problems with rust or the elements effecting it.

no words were altered while i quoted them... you can go to this site to verify.

http://www.911jobforums.com/archive/index.php/t-10620.html

 

[birdman652001]

Here's a example and my belief is, this officer had a department issue Glock. IMO, had he had a gun with a thumb operated hammer block safety. things could have been much more different. Sad deal!

http://kstp.com/news/stories/s1129156.shtml

Crittenden was sent to the scene. Because he was the only North St. Paul officer on duty, he called for backup. Maplewood officer Julie Olson met Crittenden, the caller and the caller's daughter at the apartment.

As the group entered the apartment, Dockery, 34, allegedly came at them with a cloth, soaked in accelerant and on fire. According to the BCA, Crittenden pushed the woman and the girl out of the way.

As the group entered the apartment, Dockery, 34, allegedly came at them with a cloth, soaked in accelerant and on fire. According to the BCA, Crittenden pushed the woman and the girl out of the way.

The report said the rest of the incident played out like this: Dockery hit Crittenden with the cloth and the two fought. Dockery took Crittenden's gun from its holster and shot him once in the head. Dockery aimed the weapon at Olson and both fired.

To me this officer is a hero. he saved the lives of two girls and didnt have enough time to react and grab his gun but lost his life to it.

AND youre bickering about a GUN that could've made a difference. have a heart dude. Id do the same as this officer, id push the girls. If i was me, i wouldnt of done anything different regardless the weapon that was issued.

You know your past statement tells me you care about quality and brand of a gun over a life or two.

Guns cant be your priority in Law Enforcement, lives, espeically innocent lives are more important than a beretta 92 gun.

Regardless what the North St Paul officer had carry, Im more interested in WHAT holster he had... My holster is a level 2 and has a feature that youd have to know how to release my gun to begin with. IF the North St Paul officer had a level 1 holster, then its easy for someone to take it.


its not the GUN that is safe from suspects, its the HOLSTER that holds the gun.. keep that in mind. he could of had a H&K gun and still couldve gotten SHOT dead with the holster he had on... € he couldve had a .22 handgun, he still lost the battle of controlling his gun. couldve been a Springfield XD, or a Taurus, or a Ruger, or a Sig Sauer... any of those could of been the gun in this batte.. you cant not sit there and say that berettas are not functional if it fell in the wrong hands and had the officer had the beretta, he'd still be alive today. what an ignorance statement

Could you please post your link to where the info can be found on the issue guns for Maplewood P.D.

what does maplewood PD have to do with this? He was a North St Paul officer. it wasnt some bad accident discharge.. it was taken from the officer. first off, Bad response to keep his gun from getting into the suspects hand, 2nd, tactic training must of not taken in effect or not effective at all, 3rd, what kind of holster was he using?

Safety of an officer's gun is not the factor here at all. if had it been a accident discharge while in a holster or what not, then blame GLOCK's trigger safety if they were issued Glock which this isnt the case in this shooting. I still believe they carried the Berettas for the North St Paul PD.

your case about beretta being better is crumbing apart. I need evidence.. not stories.

 

[birdman652001]

Back on Topic... Dakotazeb, have you checked out Springfield's new M model?

worth checking out!!

http://the-m-factor.com/home.html


I may purchase one after when i go to Gary's gun shop in Winner, (yes theres a gary's Gun shop number 2 in Winner, SD) and see if they have one or get one there so i can check it out. those guys are nuts.. they drive back and fourth to sioux falls weekly!

 

[birdman652001]

onpoint.. heres a link that gives credit to BOTH glock and Berettas.


http://www.glockworld.com/content.aspx?Ckey=gwa_bvg

theres pros and cons of both guns.

 

[birdshooter]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock

He even had a guy turn in his H&K USP gun and it only had 1K round into it, did the torture test and the H&K fail miserably.

Interesting. I saw an H&K torture test (barrel obstruction test) where they purposely lodged a round in the barrel and fired another one into it without blowing the gun up. The second round cleared the barrel and a slight bulge in the barrel I believe was the only damage. I wouldn't have an issue trusting a gun that could withstand this...

Here is the details of the test:

As the USP was developed at the same time as the SOCOM MK23, the pistol underwent much of the same rigorous testing. The barrel is cold-forged from chromium steel for increased life. USP barrels post-1994 use a polygonal profile, whereas 1994 and earlier models utilize traditional 'land and grooves' rifling. During testing, a bullet was deliberately lodged in a USP barrel. Another cartridge was then fired into the obstructing bullet. The second bullet cleared the barrel, resulting in a barely noticeable bulge. The pistol was then fired for accuracy and the resulting group measured less than 4 inches at 25 meters.[16

 

[Labman]

Nobody says anything about the cz p-01. I really like mine in 9mm.

 

[Dakotazeb]

Birdman, I think we are going to go to SF next weekend to the Sprotsman's Show. I"ll try to get to Gary's. Do they let you test various handguns at their indoor range?

That Springfield XD(M) looks nice but at this time I'm leaning toward the Glock 23. It's somewhat smaller size and lighter weight would allow me to conceal it easier should I desire. But shooting a few different guns would probably make the decision easier.

 

[birdman652001]

Birdman, I think we are going to go to SF next weekend to the Sprotsman's Show. I"ll try to get to Gary's. Do they let you test various handguns at their indoor range?

That Springfield XD(M) looks nice but at this time I'm leaning toward the Glock 23. It's somewhat smaller size and lighter weight would allow me to conceal it easier should I desire. But shooting a few different guns would probably make the decision easier.

They didnt build a second gun shop in Winner, they took over Hansen's drug store which then became Hansen's hunting store.. then he passed away and Gary's gun shop took over.

so no range but heck of a storage room and a nice maintence shop that they have even when Hansen's had it.


I wish there was a range, but however in Winner, I cant take a gun and go test shoot it on my farm land. I'd have to go to Sioux Falls to Gary's gun shop. I still have a memebership there as i used to be LEO out there and we did Quals at their shop.


I think you make the best choice on a Glock 23. They do carry the Speers Gold Dot as well there. Ask them for their opinion of grain when you go. they will ask you a few questions and pick a good grain for you to use. more grain, the more heat, but also more fps as well.

 

[birdman652001]

Interesting. I saw an H&K torture test (barrel obstruction test) where they purposely lodged a round in the barrel and fired another one into it without blowing the gun up. The second round cleared the barrel and a slight bulge in the barrel I believe was the only damage. I wouldn't have an issue trusting a gun that could withstand this...

Here is the details of the test:

you have to becareful how they test guns. they will do quality work on ONE test gun and then produce the rest of the guns in cheaper materials.

Ive heard of gun manufactors will go to the extreme to make a GREAT test gun, but the rest of the production would be cheaper and wouldnt of pass tourture test as stated as an example of the glock's test along with the H&K test of a newly bought gun


either way, i wouldnt trust H&K guns. I hardly see them for sale. I see alot of springfields, Glocks, Walthers, Taurus (cheap verison of the Berettas) and lots of .22 hand pistols.

as stated somewhere on this thread, H&K failed and had numberous mis fires. and had to be replaced. you probably were the ton of lucky gun owners that didnt mis fire in any conditions.

Glock did NOT make a "special" gun to pass the torture test, they produced every gun as it was a speical gun and heck you can find parts fo these guns WORLDWIDE! Glock doesnt change their set ups and kept it original so fixing it comes easy and not costy.

Gun makers such as S&W, H&K, Berettas and more are constantly changing to exceed their expectations, to me Glock does it even with their old blueprint.


howver in a gun, people want accuracy and dependable, Glock made that back in the 80's and havent changed that except now have ported barrels which to me is ridiculous and isnt needed.

I like glock, its commonly found world wide and is in majority of law enforcement and military as a great gun. IF H&K has passed series of test, it would be that gun today, unforunately, its not.

If dakotazeb buys a glock 23... and buys a Glock 22 down the line.. all of his magazine will fit either gun.

I wished i had a Glock 23 to use as a backup in case i lose my Glock 22.. bc my duty mags will fit a 23 and i can still defend the public and myself.

H&K doesnt make such compatiable magazines for such gun from compact to full. Or at least that im aware of.

 

[birdshooter]

you have to becareful how they test guns. they will do quality work on ONE test gun and then produce the rest of the guns in cheaper materials.

How do we know Glock doesn't do this manipulation as well?

either way, i wouldnt trust H&K guns. I hardly see them for sale. I see alot of springfields, Glocks, Walthers, Taurus (cheap verison of the Berettas) and lots of .22 hand pistols.

NOt seeing them for sale might tell ya something about it. Know one wants to part with their H&K??

Glock did NOT make a "special" gun to pass the torture test, they produced every gun as it was a speical gun and heck you can find parts fo these guns WORLDWIDE! Glock doesnt change their set ups and kept it original so fixing it comes easy and not costy.

Not knocking Glock, I'm sure they are a fine gun or the law enforcement people wouldn't be using them, but how do we actually know what really goes on with their testing. Just because they say so??

Gun makers such as S&W, H&K, Berettas and more are constantly changing to exceed their expectations

Not sure why that would necessarily be a bad thing?

 

[birdman652001]

NOt seeing them for sale might tell ya something about it. Know one wants to part with their H&K??

if they were, more and more law enforcement and even military would be using them today. so far, their weakness has been malfunctions/mis fire. common people like us can deal with mis fire and malfunctions, but when it comes to LE, we cant deal with it. heated moments dont get to be put on pause.

Not knocking Glock, I'm sure they are a fine gun or the law enforcement people wouldn't be using them, but how do we actually know what really goes on with their testing. Just because they say so??

same to what i said above. if H&K were proven to be better than Glocks.. Glocks wouldnt be in LE or Military

Not sure why that would necessarily be a bad thing?

too many changes lead to alot of parts will be halted in production only to make a new parts for the new designed gun. stick with the original design will outlast any gun if they keep changing products. Gun manufactors will lose money if they keep making parts for a gun thats no longer in production oppose to the new gun on the market.


same with vehicles. change the design, the old designs, you'll eventually have to go to a recycling place to get your "USED" part rather than new if they dont make production of them.




I think this Thread now can be closed.. Dakotazeb has made his choice and will see more options when he goes to the Gary's Gun Shop in Sioux Falls for his feel of comfort. Gary's gun shop has experts there that have the knowledge. they will help him and we'll see his results when he post his final gun he chooses. It is all up to now Gary's great known reputations of all kinds of guns. I have faith that they will direct him to the right and comfortable gun for him that fits his needs.

thanks for your time.