Pictures Don't Lie: Corn And Soybeans Are Conquering U.S. Grasslands

[onpoint]

OP I suspect that I am the one that talked about doing what is needed to pass the farm on. You are right that there are some farming practices that are not sustainable. But it is not as bleak as you see it. On this place we have restored a dam that was originally built by the original homesteader and then up graded by my father. The plans are in the works to restore another dam that was built by my dad in the 30s, if I can put together enough MONEY to do that. When we get that done there is a beginning of a plan to build a third dam. These things take MONEY and time. There is no tiling going on here yet but there are a few gumbo holes that would be good to get rid of. We are starting to do things with cover crops that will reduce both fertilizer and chemicals. I am technology challenged so I can't provide a link but if you YOU TUBE "Paul Brown talks on why soil health is important to farming", you will get a sample of what is starting to happen in ag. Things change, we don't have buffalo roaming here any more. The teepe rings in my pasture aren't holding down teepes any more. Open range has been gone for a long time. We are not farming with a 3 bottom plow and in 25 years people will look back and shake their heads about the good old days that are now. I don't know what is going to happen and it won't be up to me because I am going to be gone and sombody else will decide it. But what we don't need is the government screwing it up like they have in the past. What was government good intentions made everybody summerfallow which led to terrible erosion. If DU and PF want to help let them provide incentives rather than legislation. Sorry I digress.

Haymaker. I commend you on all you are doing to restore numerous things on your place. The fact is, there are model's for us all to see of what's coming down the pipeline in South Dakota. All one has to do is look east.

You say the Buffalo are gone...that's just the tip of the iceberg. No animals or birds can survive on a black desert with only little patches of cover here and there.

One question..who gives us the right to kick them off our land, take their homes, essentially kill their families? Wildlife is the new American Indian. We are moving them to refuges(reservation's). Taking their land and homes. Sooner or later. That moon scape pictures of nothing but sand and rack they keep beaming back from Mars. Will be right here after we get done with our planet but we aren't smart enough to realize that fact. Everybody's like..What do you expect me to do about it? That's the best answer any one WANT'S to give. People pumping water out of the aquifer with 18"-20" wells and experts telling them they are pumping it dry. What do they do about it? NOTHING! It's like a person sticking a loaded cocked gun to their own head. Then somebody telling them that if that goes off, it's going to kill you. Then nobody doing a single thing to prevent them from pulling the trigger. Just a slower process but they will both be dead in the end. Although them turning a blind eye to the problem. They think it will surely stop it if we just choose to ignore it. The problem will some how cure itself. Surely we can never run out of water, surely we will not poison or rivers and streams. Surely their will always be Pheasants everywhere in South Dakota. Surely if I plow my place from fence row to fence row. The pheasants, deer and other wildlife will just move to some other place..no harm no fowl. See, there will always be wildlife, just maybe on somebody's else's land and there will always be somebody else's land. Just look east to states like Indiana. There is nobody else's land and there's no wildlife either. Everybody left it up to somebody else. Surely we all couldn't plow everything under. Why yes they could and yes they will. No government regulation is exactly why this keeps happening. Because people on their own won't do what's right. They will do what fills their pocket's with money. No matter what the out come is in the end.

Onpoint

 

[haymaker]

Haymaker. I commend you on all you are doing to restore numerous things on your place. The fact is, there are model's for us all to see of what's coming down the pipeline in South Dakota. All one has to do is look east.

You say the Buffalo are gone...that's just the tip of the iceberg. No animals or birds can survive on a black desert with only little patches of cover here and there.

One question..who gives us the right to kick them off our land, take their homes, essentially kill their families? Wildlife is the new American Indian. We are moving them to refuges(reservation's). Taking their land and homes. Sooner or later. That moon scape pictures of nothing but sand and rack they keep beaming back from Mars. Will be right here after we get done with our planet but we aren't smart enough to realize that fact. Everybody's like..What do you expect me to do about it? That's the best answer any one WANT'S to give. People pumping water out of the aquifer with 18"-20" wells and experts telling them they are pumping it dry. What do they do about it? NOTHING! It's like a person sticking a loaded cocked gun to their own head. Then somebody telling them that if that goes off, it's going to kill you. Then nobody doing a single thing to prevent them from pulling the trigger. Just a slower process but they will both be dead in the end. Although them turning a blind eye to the problem. They think it will surely stop it if we just choose to ignore it. The problem will some how cure itself. Surely we can never run out of water, surely we will not poison or rivers and streams. Surely their will always be Pheasants everywhere in South Dakota. Surely if I plow my place from fence row to fence row. The pheasants, deer and other wildlife will just move to some other place..no harm no fowl. See, there will always be wildlife, just maybe on somebody's else's land and there will always be somebody else's land. Just look east to states like Indiana. There is nobody else's land and there's no wildlife either. Everybody left it up to somebody else. Surely we all couldn't plow everything under. Why yes they could and yes they will. No government regulation is exactly why this keeps happening. Because people on their own won't do what's right. They will do what fills their pocket's with money. No matter what the out come is in the end.

Onpoint

Hi OP, I guess you didn't watch Paul Brown. Most of my point is in it. Crop insurance is a government attempt to do something good, and it does some good but it is part of the reason that wetlands are under increased pressure. The use of ethanol at the present time is mandated by the goverment. We can use ethanol and in the future in will probably be made out of something better than corn. But those two things cause alot of what is giving you heart burn. Let the market decide instead of the government and we would not be as far down this road as we are. The points in the video are started and spreading. We had two young farmers Scott and Travis that are indicaters of that. This is not going to happen over night and it may not go far enough but it is a much better thing than legislation. There would be much more land growing sod if DU, PF and alot of others had not pushed the sod saver bill a few years ago. I feel like I should break up the rest of my native sod, even if I plant it back to grass just to get the bullseye off of it. I am being punished finacially for not breaking it up 20 years ago. Instead I think DU and PF money would be better spent as incentives rather than giving it to lawyers and lobbyists to create a backlash against them by landowners. Watch Paul and I think you will feel a little better. Have I digressed enough MM MT?

 

[mnmthunting]

Haymaker, I'm not worried about that native sod and the teepee rings.
At least as long as You are in charge.
Are those Teepee Rings on the top side of some river bluffs. Overlooking a large view of the land and country below?
I have come across a quite a few in MT, they all are on ridges and high areas with a great view of the country side. No doubt warm weather camps to spot game and enemies, cooler with a breeze to keep insects down. Fun stuff.

 

[haymaker]

Haymaker, I'm not worried about that native sod and the teepee rings.
At least as long as You are in charge.
Are those Teepee Rings on the top side of some river bluffs. Overlooking a large view of the land and country below?
I have come across a quite a few in MT, they all are on ridges and high areas with a great view of the country side. No doubt warm weather camps to spot game and enemies, cooler with a breeze to keep insects down. Fun stuff.

We don't have any rivers here but they are on hilltops mostly but not far from sloughs. Next to one slough is a 12' by 6' square that I think may have been a sweat lodge, that is just a guess. Yes the sod that has the teepe rings is safe but there is more that could be broke. I am not sure what the answer is but I do get tired of people who have never been here or met me or have a dime invested in anything other than their house trying to decide what I can do with my land. This is a property rights issue and if left alone the sod will stay if the DU and PF get too pushy it will get broke up. They did not learn their lesson the last time.

 

[UGUIDE]

This is a property rights issue and if left alone the sod will stay if the DU and PF get too pushy it will get broke up. They did not learn their lesson the last time.

If I were Monsanto I would give PF and DU money to push sod saver legislation

 

[mnmthunting]

We don't have any rivers here but they are on hilltops mostly but not far from sloughs. Next to one slough is a 12' by 6' square that I think may have been a sweat lodge, that is just a guess. Yes the sod that has the teepe rings is safe but there is more that could be broke. I am not sure what the answer is but I do get tired of people who have never been here or met me or have a dime invested in anything other than their house trying to decide what I can do with my land. This is a property rights issue and if left alone the sod will stay if the DU and PF get too pushy it will get broke up. They did not learn their lesson the last time.

Yeah, Please don't let them get to You.
My land is safe. :cheers:

 

[onpoint]

What D.U has to say

http://www.ducks.org/conservation/farm-bill/sodsaver-saving-americas-prairies

 

[haymaker]

What D.U has to say

http://www.ducks.org/conservation/farm-bill/sodsaver-saving-americas-prairies

That is a good article and right on until they get to the part where they talk about the sod saver part. The last time they tried that thousands of acres of sod were quickly broke up as a result of it. I know of one operation thirty miles south of here that broke up thirty quarters of grass because of it. They sold the cows and broke it up. When DU thinks that they own all sod without paying for it, it causes a great backlash from some landowners who feel like I do. I do not want to break up sod but if DU tells me I can't I will and I will send them a video of me doing it. I will probably plant it back to grass but it won't have the native grassland bulls eye attached to it any more and then DU can't hurt me anymore.

 

[UGUIDE]

What D.U has to say

http://www.ducks.org/conservation/farm-bill/sodsaver-saving-americas-prairies

Chuck, what do you think they are saying? My written comprehension is not what it used to be. Give us your interpretation. What are they saying the problem is and what are they stating for solutions?

 

[onpoint]

Here's the deal Chris. Animals and fish are great indicators of the health of the environment. No animals or fish, soon no human's either.

When you have people who are willing to intentionally crash an economy, crash a Eco system, destroy or use up clean water, Etc all in the name of...Nobody is going to tell me what to do on my land. Sometimes you just can't tell somebody the future. They just have to learn it the hard way. Problem is, just maybe there's no fixing what they so eagerly wrecked in the name of private property rights and money. 30 years from now, try drinking that money, try stopping the spread of cancer, liver failure, kidney problems, nervous system illness, Etc, Etc, Etc. That Sod is a filter for our aquifer, same with the wet-lands. NEWS FLASH: Human's can't survive with out clean drinkable water, fish and animals too. D.U. has scientist and biologists who have the proof of what will be the results if things don't change. typical results, people who only choose to believe what keeps the flow of cash in their pockets and that's not what they want to hear from D.U. or PF.

Ask how many of you farmers would be willing to take your children or grandchildren down to those ditches between your fields and have them swim in that water on a regular basis. I bet they wouldn't be willing to do that but would still blatantly deny their actions are doing anything to our environment or habitat. Go ahead, I dare you to take them kids swimming in that ditch every week until they are 18 all summer long. Lets see if they don't develop health issues. Keep plowing mother earths filter under....you have that right in your minds because you hold a piece of paper registered down at the court house. Keep turning that sod over

Here's some reading on pollution. Farm waste and chemical run off will eventually do what these company's did to these places.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/05/19/americas-28-most-polluted-places.html

Here's a example in California of what ditching of water, farm run off, diverting of water for Ag. Etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atgg7t4XbPk

 

[haymaker]

Three days ago you said the plains were going to be a desert and that there would be no water reserves. Now you want my kids to swim inthe ditches that are filled with water. Which problem shall I solve, or should my kids swim in the dust. I know you like to stir things up and that is fine but I worry about your health. It is not good to see nothingbut gloom and doom when believe it or not there are some good things happening in the world. Besides God is in control.

 

[UGUIDE]

Here's the deal Chris. Animals and fish are great indicators of the health of the environment. No animals or fish, soon no human's either.

When you have people who are willing to intentionally crash an economy, crash a Eco system, destroy or use up clean water, Etc all in the name of...Nobody is going to tell me what to do on my land. Sometimes you just can't tell somebody the future. They just have to learn it the hard way. Problem is, just maybe there's no fixing what they so eagerly wrecked in the name of private property rights and money. 30 years from now, try drinking that money, try stopping the spread of cancer, liver failure, kidney problems, nervous system illness, Etc, Etc, Etc. That Sod is a filter for our aquifer, same with the wet-lands. NEWS FLASH: Human's can't survive with out clean drinkable water, fish and animals too. D.U. has scientist and biologists who have the proof of what will be the results if things don't change. typical results, people who only choose to believe what keeps the flow of cash in their pockets and that's not what they want to hear from D.U. or PF.

Ask how many of you farmers would be willing to take your children or grandchildren down to those ditches between your fields and have them swim in that water on a regular basis. I bet they wouldn't be willing to do that but would still blatantly deny their actions are doing anything to our environment or habitat. Go ahead, I dare you to take them kids swimming in that ditch every week until they are 18 all summer long. Lets see if they don't develop health issues. Keep plowing mother earths filter under....you have that right in your minds because you hold a piece of paper registered down at the court house. Keep turning that sod over

Here's some reading on pollution. Farm waste and chemical run off will eventually do what these company's did to these places.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/05/19/americas-28-most-polluted-places.html

Here's a example in California of what ditching of water, farm run off, diverting of water for Ag. Etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atgg7t4XbPk

Chuck, you didn't answer the question. DU makes an issue over over dissappearing grasslands in the SD Coteau and the best they can come up with is a sodbuster provision and Haymaker has already told us how that works.

AND they claim the issue is a flawed 2008 farm bill when everyone knows it is the commodities market that drives sod busting.

The point is, everyone knows there is a problem. I'm looking for people who are willing to DO something about it.

 

[haymaker]

Take a little of the luster out of the crop insurance program. Deny it to wetlands, let DU and PF provide financial incentives to areas that they deem the most crucial. Probably won't solve all problems but it would be a start.

 

[onpoint]

let DU and PF provide financial incentives to areas that they deem the most crucial.

Why is it always some financial incentive?

Do you folks out there have to be paid for everything?

It's kind of like people who are paid to take care of their own kid by government wel-fair programs because they are handicapped or even sick from drug addiction. There was a lady on TV the other night who gets paid $9.00 per hour to take care of her own daughter by the government.

Farmers want us to pay them to take proper care of their land/wet-lands. It just stymies me the difference between people here in northern Minnesota and out in the farm belt. They think people in the north just sit on wel-fair. Seems to me, every section of land is one dependent child that is on wel-fair. Money even comes from the same branch of government. The USDA. One person opens up the mail box to a food stamp card and the other opens the mail box to a wel-fair check for their 600 acres.

To tell you the truth, I really could care less. The system is so broken. It's beyond repair IMO. Everybody wants the free money cut off to everybody but themselves.

Have a great day. I have to cook all day for a wedding I'm presiding over tomorrow. God Bless.

I wish all of you the best

 

[haymaker]

Why is it always some financial incentive?

Do you folks out there have to be paid for everything?

It's kind of like people who are paid to take care of their own kid by government wel-fair programs because they are handicapped or even sick from drug addiction. There was a lady on TV the other night who gets paid $9.00 per hour to take care of her own daughter by the government.

Farmers want us to pay them to take proper care of their land/wet-lands. It just stymies me the difference between people here in northern Minnesota and out in the farm belt. They think people in the north just sit on wel-fair. Seems to me, every section of land is one dependent child that is on wel-fair. Money even comes from the same branch of government. The USDA. One person opens up the mail box to a food stamp card and the other opens the mail box to a wel-fair check for their 600 acres.

To tell you the truth, I really could care less. The system is so broken. It's beyond repair IMO. Everybody wants the free money cut off to everybody but themselves.

Have a great day. I have to cook all day for a wedding I'm presiding over tomorrow. God Bless.

I wish all of you the best

My point is they are spending money on lawyers and lobbyists now. If you take that money and invest it directly in some project that they deem important instead, you don't create the backlash and you get something positive done.

 

[UGUIDE]

Why is it always some financial incentive?

Do you folks out there have to be paid for everything?

Chuck, when considering the impacts on the prairie coteau region in SD, a poverty mindset will not work. I mean nothing personal but to effect change their has to be a change in thinking.

It will not compete.

What is Monsanto's #1 objective? To return value to the shareholder. Why? Because they are a publicly traded company. How do they return shareholder value? By "profitably" selling more products like GMO seed, herbicides, fungicides and insecticides. How do they do that? By getting more farmers to apply more of their products on more acres. Do organic producers use their products? Not a one.

"Do you folks" not understand the free market system John Adams and our other founding fathers established for this country?

Just having fun with this like MNMT says

 

[Win97]

onpoint, I have to agree to what you say, and feel the same way you do about many things.What if oil company's, waste management company's and all industy's were allowed to dump what ever they wanted to on their own land. It would destoy our whole environment and make it unfit for anything to live including us. The idea that ownership gives you the right to do what ever you want is crazy. It effects people all around you. We are just caretakers of this land while we are here and I think it is our responsiblty to take care of it. Maybe even leave it better than the way it was.

 

[haymaker]

onpoint, I have to agree to what you say, and feel the same way you do about many things.What if oil company's, waste management company's and all industy's were allowed to dump what ever they wanted to on their own land. It would destoy our whole environment and make it unfit for anything to live including us. The idea that ownership gives you the right to do what ever you want is crazy. It effects people all around you. We are just caretakers of this land while we are here and I think it is our responsiblty to take care of it. Maybe even leave it better than the way it was.

Then my question would be who should get to decide what can or can not be done on the land that has been in the family for over a century? Should it be government officials, or pehaps DU executives, maybe Nancy Pelosi. Who knows more about what can or can't be done than the guy who lives on it? Do I just give up my land because some people want to shoot a duck or a pheasant. How much financial loss are you willing to take because I have what I think is a good idea about what should be done in your back yard? If cattle prices get cut in half because Peta has convinced enough people to be vegitarians. Are you going to make me keep losing money until I go broke or can I plant a crop to feed the vegitarians. I agree with you about being caretakers. I have about 50 years of being a caretaker here, I will be willing to compare the organic matter of my soil with any of that around here and I bet I win by at least a whole percent. If you want to measure the biological life of the soil I will do well there. Do the people that you want to decide know anything about this? The lobbyists and lawyers or congress don't know enough to apply for the job.

 

[oldandnew]

Chuck, when considering the impacts on the prairie coteau region in SD, a poverty mindset will not work. I mean nothing personal but to effect change their has to be a change in thinking.

It will not compete.

What is Monsanto's #1 objective? To return value to the shareholder. Why? Because they are a publicly traded company. How do they return shareholder value? By "profitably" selling more products like GMO seed, herbicides, fungicides and insecticides. How do they do that? By getting more farmers to apply more of their products on more acres. Do organic producers use their products? Not a one.

"Do you folks" not understand the free market system John Adams and our other founding fathers established for this country?

Just having fun with this like MNMT says

What we come down to is ethics. Is it ethical to avoid testing of roundup since we are talking about Monsanto, since it hasn't been safety approved since like 1979, or there abouts. Due to a strong lobbying arm. Not quite as strong in Europe and Canada. So the investment of the shareholders is an unobstructed right to all businesses, they can risk your life, create pollution, leave us a stain we might have to fix fifty years from now, paid off a pittance when ever they get caught. monsanto today, Ford Pinto gas tanks in the 1970's, They LLC chemical companies, that produced Chlordane, which are now broke, but the investors are long gone with the money. Businesses have no soul, no responsibility, either to themselves or us. John Adams was a farmer, I have always thought he was smarter than that, currently the seed wasn't true for the rest of us!

 

[onpoint]

My point is they are spending money on lawyers and lobbyists now. If you take that money and invest it directly in some project that they deem important instead, you don't create the backlash and you get something positive done.

it seems DU has tried to work with the farming industry for year. It always has boiled down to the farmers either get paid for something, even for doing nothing. Just leaving low wet land stand. Now that they(DU) are attempting a end around to make farmers do the right thing. Now all of a son they have farmers attention.

See I have always said. People want the government out of their life. They think they are the best to control themselves. The government does stay out of things. Until people screw it up so bad. The government has to step in and MAKE them do what they should have done all on their own. Then those now being forced to do what they could of and should have done loose their minds and start screaming things like "Socialist" "Communist" government.

It's kind of like the father who asked his kid to do something 6-8 times. He may have tried several attempts with even a little reward for getting the chore done but the kid still didn't do it. Finally when the father has had it, he's had enough. Now the kids going to do it..PLUS a whole bunch of other stuff. Now the kid is ticked off. Same goes for the farmer who was asked to manage his land in a proper manner. You can only ask so many times. Now he will be forced and he, like the kid is ticked off.

Onpoint