moellermd
Super Moderator
Your on target on that one. A good lab should find, flush, mark and retrieve. If I wanted a pointer I would buy one.
lab breeders do a disservice to hunters
- Thread starter moellermd
- Start date
Your on target on that one. A good lab should find, flush, mark and retrieve. If I wanted a pointer I would buy one.
hayduke
New member
Lots of good information. I think the lab breed has more variance than other bird dog breeds. A Hunter has to look at what is important for their hunting needs. Now, I must confess, I never hunted behind a pointer and to be honest do not care to, I don't do just upland hunting. My needs are geared to upland (pheasant) and waterfowl. With my last lab I did 90% waterfowl and 10% upland. Ozzy is a 90lb big chested dog that did "find" handling the Colorado River and the large ice shelves where he needed to pull himself on to, in 4 to 5 foot of water. Now my hunting is reversed. My new pup is 63lbs and most likely will top off at 75lbs. So far he show good signs of having a fine nose, gets very birdy, he aggressively flushes and show all the traits of a fine retriever. This works for me. My dogs are far more than just my hunting companion they are my everyday companion, let not lose sight of the big picture. Lab breeders are doing what they do, I believe It's up to the hunter to find the right lab for their needs, there out there even form back yard breeders you just have to find them. Just my 2¢
moellermd
Super Moderator
I think you are dead on here. Labs do seem to have a wider range of hunting ability compared to other breeds. I think it has a lot to do with the breed being pulled in 3 different directions upland, waterfowl, and what is the neatest color for my companion dog.
BARTELS GUNDOGS
New member
alot of it has to do
with them being the most popular breed in the US
with them being the most popular breed in the US
FCSpringer
Moderator
I hear ya, and congrats on having one to be proud of. It's a good feeling isn't it. Good luck to you and the new pup.:thumbsup: I do miss the ice busting cold water retrieves when duck hunting. It amazed me that they can put up with that.
Gatzby
Well-known member
Thank You! Well Said.
I agree most people can not handle high caliber dogs out of field trial litters or even hunt test litters. no fault of the dog or the handler, They just dont set there standard of training up high enough, and let the dog get by with to much, The dont understand the mentallity of the dog. Most cant even do basic Obediance with the dog.
What i have found is most people live in the city and want a good dog that they can take hunting 4 to 5 times a year, they want a very trainable dog, who shuts it down in the house,
What they fail to do is get the dog on birds early in life, Upland hunting at 3 months old the dog needs birds to be a bird dog, It needs the tools to become a good hunter in the field, This all doesnt come natural to the dog.
A friend of mine bought a GSP out of the same line as another person bought out of the same litter one trained his dog the other did not, I seen both dogs last year, The one GSP is outstanding in the field, The other was just a pet, I said bring him out (the pet) and i will put him on some birds, well we put birds out and the dog ran around and didnt seem to care, finally i went in and kicked the Chukar and it flew alittle and the dog chased but didnt have the mentallity to know what to do. They just dont become a super bird dog right out of the box IMO....
Kevin
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PairOfLabs
Active member
Lot's of good info here but what's a silver lab? My wife and I have an agreement--she insists on yellow and she lets me look for the best hunting background we can find. We're on yellow numbers 4 & 5, always trying to have two in the house. Two happened to be toward the fox red end of the yellow spectrum, the rest-regular yellows if there is such a thing. One poster mentioned the "pet" who gets to hunt 4-5 times a year. I have often been in that category--last season was my record at 8 days. Now that I'm retired I hope to do better (6 days so far this season) and spend more time training my 9 month old pup. I started working with him with birds at the pheasant ranch at 5 months. A common denominator is the more birds they get exposed to, and the more frequently, the better--regardless of their background.
Regards,
Tom
Regards,
Tom
tmrichardson
Banned
I don't agree--not because I like the idea of labs pointing. If I bought a lab I'd be sure to buy a pointing one. Why?
Until pointing labs came along the breed by and large was being steered towards huge, strong, powerful, tough dogs that either retreived great or (as some of the retriever folks themselves have bemoaned) can be really leaned on with the e-collar to turn into retrieving machines.
Upland hunting abilities were lost a bit along the way.
Pointing lab folks have looked to produce smaller, faster, birdy dogs more suited for serious mileage, day long/multiple day upland hunting.
moellermd
Super Moderator
I would agree that they have made ground in making dogs more birdy and smaller. But if that is what you want then they should be breeding smaller faster, birdy dogs and if they point so be it. By focusing the pointing aspect specifically and breeding mainly for that attribute I think they often overlook the other attributes such as smaller framed, prey drive, marking and retrieving ability. I do not think that just because a lab points means it gets the other attributes automatically. By focusing on pointing the focus is on the stalk not on the chase aspect of the dog, which is what makes the lab beneficial in my mind. The ability to chase and retrieve birds.
stevemankato
New member
I have read a silver lab is a cross between a black lab and a weimaraner. That is what the breeder that I bought my dog from told me anyway so I did a little research and it backed up what he was telling me. In the begining of this post someone was commenting on seeing alot of poor quality labradors out there and I was surprised that I haven't read more about the quality of training being the reason. Although breeding does have an effect you can take the best bred dog and if you don't train it right it won't be a great hunter. It is always easier to blame the dog or the breeder. I have an ivory lab my brother has a chocolate and a black and my dad has 2 GSP's. They all have there good points.
bobeyerite
New member
Lets go back to 1955, That was the year I hunter pheasants. A couple of buddies asked to come along with them, one of them was Jake Mauer. He had a black Lab named "Lady". Lady was either a field champion or of champion stock, anyway she was one of the best Labs I ever hunted behind. In Minnesota, we would go southwest of the cities and hunt picked corn fields. Lady would run the corn fields and point the pheasants hiding under the bent over corn stalks. We had a great time and she influenced me to get a lab as my 1st dog. I could never find one that compared to Lady. So I gave up and went to pointing breeds GSP and Brittany. So I can say I know for positive pointing labs exsited as far back as 1955 and are not new by any means......Bob
moellermd
Super Moderator
Well I do not necessary agree with the premise of your argument it is an interesting perspective. Personally, I do not see anything wrong with a bad flushing flusher as long as it does what it was bred to do and I certainly will not go out of my way to get one.
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moellermd
Super Moderator
Excellent points.
onpoint
Active member
Close line breeding has wrecked the Labrador. It has bread in weakness, health troubles and in many cases no smarts. The troubles from line breeding can and do come out for numerous generations. Eye troubles, hip troubles, ear troubles, exercised induced Asama, shortened life span, allergies, Etc, Etc, Etc.
I look for a meat dog, bread from generations of non related stock that come from hunting back grounds. Keep your titles, too many buy the papers and get a free pup. Papers don't hunt. I don't want to skinny, pointy nose 40-50lb dog. That's not what the lab was. It's been bread down to a whole new dog from what it was. I have hunted and raised Labs my whole life. I don't need some book to tell me how tall a dog must be or how much it should weigh. I want what I want, not what they say I should want.
Hard to get a good Lab now, the whole breed is messed up
onpoint
I look for a meat dog, bread from generations of non related stock that come from hunting back grounds. Keep your titles, too many buy the papers and get a free pup. Papers don't hunt. I don't want to skinny, pointy nose 40-50lb dog. That's not what the lab was. It's been bread down to a whole new dog from what it was. I have hunted and raised Labs my whole life. I don't need some book to tell me how tall a dog must be or how much it should weigh. I want what I want, not what they say I should want.
Hard to get a good Lab now, the whole breed is messed up
onpoint
Most of you folks are thinking exactly like I am. I want my Labs black because they're supposed to be black. I've seen these silver ones, they're obviously Wiemer crosses(i've had Wiemers, love 'em) I'm suspicious that Chocolate and Yellows have had Chessie mixed in somewhere. How do you get them registered ? Here in KS. we have lots of set aside ground to hunt, tall stuff. How in the world could you even see a point in that stuff (beeper collars ? NOT!). I leave the pointing breeds to the Georgia Quail hunters. I'm on my second season with Maggie Mae, she tickles me to death, she's probably my last Lab, probably my last dog. She's black, she's fast, and she knows where them "ditch parrots" are hiding.
bobeyerite
New member
Not to hijack this thread But thomasm has asked "how do you find a pointer in tall weeds" The answer is really simple "GPS" there are many out there for dogs..........Bob
onpoint
Active member
Put bells on their collars too
onpoint
Active member
Quote
FC
"Well you could be not farther from the truth on one thing, Titles or FC AFC"
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Some of the best working field dogs I have ever seen, be it in the field or on hunting preserves weren't even registered, some with no papers at all. There is no replacement for numbers of birds and time in the field. Many just have to have those titles behind their pup to some how tell everybody this makes my dog better then yours. When in fact, those titles came from the hard work of others and unless you pursue those same goals for your dog, They really mean nothing. Given the right trainer/titled dog owner, he/she could title most any dog with good hunting back grounds.
onpoint
FC
"Well you could be not farther from the truth on one thing, Titles or FC AFC"
___________________________________
Some of the best working field dogs I have ever seen, be it in the field or on hunting preserves weren't even registered, some with no papers at all. There is no replacement for numbers of birds and time in the field. Many just have to have those titles behind their pup to some how tell everybody this makes my dog better then yours. When in fact, those titles came from the hard work of others and unless you pursue those same goals for your dog, They really mean nothing. Given the right trainer/titled dog owner, he/she could title most any dog with good hunting back grounds.
onpoint