lab breeders do a disservice to hunters

moellermd

moellermd

Super Moderator
After watching a bunch of well below labs working the field this fall I have determined that breeders are focusing on the wrong stuff. Lab breeders are infatuated with color. The last two years it seems to be silver labs are the deal. Before that it was fox red. When I was in high school it seemed to be chocolate. I'd like to see more focus on hunting ability and drive. I don't care if my dog is purple as long as it hunts. Of course there are breeders who do a good job of breeding hunting dogs. It just seems that every pup for sale has "parents that hunt great". It just seems like with labs you either have a good dog or crap there is no in between.
 
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I would say

I see alot more middle of the road dogs.... a few are completely worthless and even fewer are really amazing ...most I see are middle of the road :thumbsup: I would never buy a dog based on color.
 
Too many backyard breeders. They don't know what to look for in a breeding. Don't even do hip checks. I suggest leaving the breeding to the professionals. Not only for Labs but for all breeds.
 
Dakotazeb said:
Too many backyard breeders. They don't know what to look for in a breeding.
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There is a lot of truth to that but there is some professional breeders breeding for color and not hunting ability.
 
I buy for color, BLACK...... and you bet I looked into the breeding and the parents. When I bought my pup the breeder (who is big into hunting) wanted to show me the pups. I told him I was more interested in seeing the parents work. I couldn't be happier with my 10 month old lab. I took him to SD a week ago. He did better than I could have expected, still has a long long way to go and I'm enjoying working with him every day and I mean every day!!!
Peter
 
Dakotazeb said:
Too many backyard breeders. They don't know what to look for in a breeding. Don't even do hip checks.
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Thats one of the reasons why I own a Chesapeake, Labs are way over bred for example a neighbor of ours had a female yellow lab he bred her 9 TIMES !!, when I asked him why so many times he just looked at me and said MONEY then I called him an F@#KING idiot when on my way needles to say you can't turn people like that in to the humane society because they called him a reputable breeder WTF.
 
Lmao!!!!!!
 
JMc said:
I've seen a purple lab...
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I hunt with you
You hunt with me
I refuse to hunt with a Lab puppy
For they don't point a thing
And their tails to long
Won't you find me a new hunting dog!!!

Sorry I couldn't resist....:D
 
Mr Hyde said:
Thats one of the reasons why I own a Chesapeake, Labs are way over bred for example a neighbor of ours had a female yellow lab he bred her 9 TIMES !!, when I asked him why so many times he just looked at me and said MONEY then I called him an F@#KING idiot when on my way needles to say you can't turn people like that in to the humane society because they called him a reputable breeder WTF.
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If you ask most good breeders, they will tell you there is no money in breeding dogs. I keep track on taxes for our breeding program and the last 2 years there has been losses of 12-16 hundred dollars. We have a passion for the breed and try to improve every generation. Someone breeding for $ is in it for the wrong reason. If we wouldn't have a 40 year history with the guy I learned from and took over for, I would most likely not be doing it now. But now that I am this involved I somewhat feel obligated to continue what we are working on. It is a ton of work and not allot of fun each breeding, there is so many things that can go wrong,Not for the faint of heart. The few litters we have are well planed with purpose. To anyone wanting to just see the miracle of birth, I recomend a video. These things being brought up are the exact reason why we sell our dogs without breeding rights unless we are very comfortable with where that certain pup is placed. The one who said that every breed is effected is right. It does not matter what breed the same thing has happened. Most of the people that call us will get refered to another good breeder that I know will help them and whom I trust, because we just don't have that many, Unless they are willing to wait. Each time I have chose a pup I have waited at least a year or 2, to get what I want. So Plan ahead. Useualy the ones that brag about how many they raise or just breed back to back to back litters every time the bitch comes to heat are the ones to avoid.
Good topic.
 
FC,

You are right on the money. When looking for a dog I look as much at the breeder as I do the dogs. That's why I said above "Leave it to the professional". The breeders like yourself that are doing it to better the breed.

Thanks for the post.

Zeb
 
One of the problems is demand

becuase of the popularity alot of people think that if you breed a titled dog to a titled dog you set the world on fire .they are not EXPERIENCED breeders . I have seen dogs that have HT titles that are pigs ! I breed dogs that PRODUCE the TRAITS I want.some hunt test dogs I've seen have little prey drive the they are taught the skills they need to pass tests but show little desire.....sorry i want a dog that is NATURALLY BIRDY !!!! and LOVES his job:thumbsup:not one that has to be forced to do everything.I know of a dog that is a GRHRCH that hated water the pro that he was with was ready to give up on him but the owner kept paying and they finally got him wet.You can bet that dog will never show up my bloodline......gotta know what your breeding cant just breed titles to titles.:cheers:
 
I was looking through the back of a PF magazine today and it seems like you can't buy a lab that does not point. They all do (at least at a pheasant wing in the green grass of the back yard.)
 
BARTELS GUNDOGS said:
becuase of the popularity alot of people think that if you breed a titled dog to a titled dog you set the world on fire .they are not EXPERIENCED breeders . I have seen dogs that have HT titles that are pigs ! I breed dogs that PRODUCE the TRAITS I want.some hunt test dogs I've seen have little prey drive the they are taught the skills they need to pass tests but show little desire.....sorry i want a dog that is NATURALLY BIRDY !!!! and LOVES his job:thumbsup:not one that has to be forced to do everything.I know of a dog that is a GRHRCH that hated water the pro that he was with was ready to give up on him but the owner kept paying and they finally got him wet.You can bet that dog will never show up my bloodline......gotta know what your breeding cant just breed titles to titles.:cheers:
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I can agree with you on some of this, but there is a differance in Hunt tests and field trials. I guarentee you a dog has to have good natural tallent in order to become a Field Champion. At least in the ESS breed. It is easier to get a hunt test title,But there are other titles like real AKC ESS trials for example a great many of those dogs wont cut the mustard. A FC has to be able to be a "great bird finder", you can't force bird finding and drive into a dog. You can train obediance and enhance retrieveing skills. They have to have a soft mouth because they will trap birds all the time and good luck if you run a bird grinder, They have to have a natural trainability, show controll, and marking has to be a natural bred in trait, the real good ones make retrieves the adverage hunter will never have to.If the dog is not steady you have no way to show marking tallent. Only the best of the breed excell in true field trials for the greater most part. And in those cases they have to pass water tests as well. I at least in my breed of choice will be sticking with the proven dogs in real field trials, I know what I get there.You don't find dogs at all in Field trials that are forced to do their job, simply not the case at all. We hunt our dogs all the time and welcome anyone who wants to come and check it out, I recomend anyone to do that with any dog you decide to buy. I in no means am knocking hunt tests here either, I just want it made clear that there is a big differance, especialy from a different breed standpoint. So when the words Titled dogs are used it is not true in some cases.
 
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FCSpringer said:
If you ask most good breeders, they will tell you there is no money in breeding dogs. I keep track on taxes for our breeding program and the last 2 years there has been losses of 12-16 hundred dollars. We have a passion for the breed and try to improve every generation. Someone breeding for $ is in it for the wrong reason. If we wouldn't have a 40 year history with the guy I learned from and took over for, I would most likely not be doing it now. But now that I am this involved I somewhat feel obligated to continue what we are working on. It is a ton of work and not allot of fun each breeding, there is so many things that can go wrong,Not for the faint of heart. The few litters we have are well planed with purpose. To anyone wanting to just see the miracle of birth, I recomend a video. These things being brought up are the exact reason why we sell our dogs without breeding rights unless we are very comfortable with where that certain pup is placed. The one who said that every breed is effected is right. It does not matter what breed the same thing has happened. Most of the people that call us will get refered to another good breeder that I know will help them and whom I trust, because we just don't have that many, Unless they are willing to wait. Each time I have chose a pup I have waited at least a year or 2, to get what I want. So Plan ahead. Useualy the ones that brag about how many they raise or just breed back to back to back litters every time the bitch comes to heat are the ones to avoid.
Good topic.
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Springer, I am glad to see people like you and Uncle Buck keep good lines in your dogs. I personally could not be a breeder there is no way that I have the time, with 2 small children in tow it's hard enough to get the kids in the water to retrieve ducks or run in the field to point or flush and retrieve pheasants. :D
 
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I am by no means considering myself to be a know it all or better than everyone else, thats far from what I am saying. I still learn all the time and will continue to do so as long as I can walk. Educating or helping anyone with what I can along the way if asked. I will just try to do the best I can. And hopefully it gets better along the way. As I am lucky to be able to work with some of the great breeders that have alowed me to have there dogs added to a part of our lives. For them I am eternaly greatfull.
:cheers:
 
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Springer

I have never witnessed a spaniel trial I was refering more to retriever hunt test becuase that is what I'm familiar with. I see alot of people that will breed a Lab to a dog that has a hunt test title and think they are doing a great thing but they don't even know the dog just that he has a title . in the retriever HUNT TEST game if a person has the money they can get any dog some type of title,,just depends how long you want to pay the trainer and how many tests you want to enter.I agree FT are another story but most average people dont know what to do with a dog of this caliber I've seen people buy pups out of FC (retrievers) and have no idea what to do with a dog like this.
 
FCSpringer said:
If you ask most good breeders, they will tell you there is no money in breeding dogs. I keep track on taxes for our breeding program and the last 2 years there has been losses of 12-16 hundred dollars. We have a passion for the breed and try to improve every generation. Someone breeding for $ is in it for the wrong reason. If we wouldn't have a 40 year history with the guy I learned from and took over for, I would most likely not be doing it now. But now that I am this involved I somewhat feel obligated to continue what we are working on. It is a ton of work and not allot of fun each breeding, there is so many things that can go wrong,Not for the faint of heart. The few litters we have are well planed with purpose. To anyone wanting to just see the miracle of birth, I recomend a video. These things being brought up are the exact reason why we sell our dogs without breeding rights unless we are very comfortable with where that certain pup is placed. The one who said that every breed is effected is right. It does not matter what breed the same thing has happened. Most of the people that call us will get refered to another good breeder that I know will help them and whom I trust, because we just don't have that many, Unless they are willing to wait. Each time I have chose a pup I have waited at least a year or 2, to get what I want. So Plan ahead. Useualy the ones that brag about how many they raise or just breed back to back to back litters every time the bitch comes to heat are the ones to avoid.
Good topic.
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BINGO! COULD NOT HAVE SAID IT BETTER. I have had Pudelpointers for 22 years and have only had five litters. I could have put a lot of dogs out there detrimental to the breed if I wished to do so. Breed the best to the best, x-ray the hips and test the dogs with NAVHDA. $200 TO X-RAY A DOG, $100 TO TEST(MINIMALLY) PLUS 22 YEARS OF FOOD AND VET BILLS ON A MINIMUM OF 4 ADULTS(CURRENTLY 6). NOW ADD MY LABOR AND ASK ME HOW MUCH I MAKE ON A PUP THO I DO GET BIG BUCKS FOR THEM.
________
Og Kush
 
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I had a paragraph typed up but got disconected, now I can't remember what I wrote.:confused:. It is said many times that "Wow Rover was the best damm bird dog ever", but in reality it is one of just a few they have seen. If you go and watch 100's of dogs, and see them more then once, you can get a much better Idea of what a good dog realy is. I am not saying only Field Champion dogs should bred, that would eliminate too many good dogs from a gene pool. I could take a dog that has no history of trials and do well with it as long as it has what it takes. Trial dogs are not neccesarly a different caliber, they are not from a different planet, They have to be trained just like any dog. You put nothing in you get nothing out. Offten times it is a dog that does not win that I think was the best dog, many things can go wrong to keep that dog from winning. But consistancy will show up at some point. More power to you lab guy's I would pull my hair out trying to figure it out. But as any breder we owe it to the hunter to try to do our best at giving them a dog that is healthy and going out of our way to give them a dog that does what it was bred to do. Now Like Mollermd said Many labs point,well is that what they were realy bred to do? is it a marketing tool?, or is it dogs being bred that have a bad flush?. I don't know. Maybe there should be two seperate breeds. Any way I understand the frustration while dealing with some people but it realy has to do more with the integrity of the individual you chose to get a dog from, and their knoledge of the breed.
 
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