Intersting discussion on shotgun velocity

jnormanh said:
I certainly wouldn't pick a .410 either. I've tried to shoot quail with a .410, and didn't do very well, but I think it's the smaller pattern (most .410 are choked at least modified, many full). I did learn that if you hit quail with the center of the pattern in a full-choke .410, it'll make hamburger of them out to 30 yards. True experts can kill birds with the .410, but they can center up birds and don't have to rely on using the edges of a larger pattern.
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I don't know- skeet grade OU 410's- over 7 pointing dogs- was something- it was a miss cost you type of thing- gun felt like pointing a pencil after using my AL2-

if I saw a person with an OU 410 in the field I would feel that person could really shoot and knew what was up
 
I will take the premium high velocity stuff any day of week. Why not give yourself the edge. When I switched to the good stuff I noticed more dead birds. The rest of my hunting party used to make fun of me for spending 13 bucks on a box of shells. Know they all hunt with them. It is not just the speed you are paying for but shot hardness, wad design, ect.
 
I don't think anyone here is saying that shooting low quality "promo" "loss leader", ammo is the equivalent of "premium" ammo. There are a lot of specialty ammo loaded that is lower velocity, slightly lighter throw weight, that perform just fine. If you are pass shooting pheasants at 60 yards in a tail wind maybe you need more punch, but generations of British gunners shot and continue to shoot 3 1/4-1 1/8-7's and fold high crossing pheasants with alarming regularity. They hit them because the shoot hundreds a year. But everyone should shoot what they feel comfortable with, be it 10 gauge mag. or wispy .410. I shoot a 1912 Parker that weighs nearly 9 pounds, with 1 ounce premium loads a lot. Never felt undergunned. I also shoot a Winchester SX/2 light, weighs 6 1/2 pounds, I use 2 3/4's golden pheasant with 1 3/8th's nickle 7 1/2's , because that's what it likes. This year I am experimenting with a Purdey percussion, black powder 12 gauge, ( maybe 11 gauge). Working up a load at around 1150 fps 1 1/8th ounce of "nice shot"6's, pushed by 3.25 drams of black powder, through cylinder/cylinder bores. Should be the ultimate "green" load. No shot cup, empties to chase, no toxic shot. Maybe I'll even bag something, but the lag between trigger and fire make lead a challenge!
 
oldandnew said:
This year I am experimenting with a Purdey percussion, black powder 12 gauge, ( maybe 11 gauge). Working up a load at around 1150 fps 1 1/8th ounce of "nice shot"6's, pushed by 3.25 drams of black powder, through cylinder/cylinder bores. Should be the ultimate "green" load. No shot cup, empties to chase, no toxic shot. Maybe I'll even bag something, but the lag between trigger and fire make lead a challenge!
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I want to know how that turns out. I have always thought that would be fun to do.
 
I have patterned several of the super High-Velocity loads by various manufacturers. Those with plain lead (no coating) didn't pattern well, but those coated with copper (Rem) or nickel (Fiocchi) patterned fine. While I've shot way more birds with the standard 12 load of 1 1/4oz #5 or #6 at 1330 fps, I do use some of the HV stuff in late Dec.

The 20 (1220-1250 fps) and 16 (1250-1300) pattern just fine without hyper velocity loads.

Keeping your head on the stock instead of "peeking" (lifting head off stock) will go a long way towards hitting more birds, whether real or clay.
 
fourtrax said:
Optimizing patterns, gun ga., types / sizes of shot etc. is fine.

Anchoring birds "ain't rocket science" either. When I am having an off day,
i.e. "C.H.S. syndrome" (that is - can't hit sh&^^%), it does not matter what the
hell I am shooting. If I am not putting the pattern on the bird, or even the front end, optimization does me no good.
I do pattern all my guns. If I am shooting decently the birds go down.
Yes, I am guilty of being an inconsistent wing shooter. When you have it perfected let me know. I find trying to optimize different phases of the shooting /shot equation is a very effective way to kill some of the offseaon.
Money well spent for me would probably be trying to optimize my shooting skills by paying for some shooting lessons from a good instructor. Keeping track of the basics & not getting lost in details makes a nice balance for me, personally.
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I had it perfected one day two years ago. Hit 10 out of 11 shots at bobwhite!

Next day hit one out of 24 shots...... Success is fleeting:eek:
 
Well said!

Dakotazeb said:
Give me any gun (12, 16 or 20 ga.) with 1 oz -1 1/4oz. of 5 or 6 shot at 1,200-1,300 fps with an IC or Mod choke and I'll consistently kill pheasants out to 40 yds and maybe even further. It really is that simple. You don't need 1,500 fps or Prairie Storm type loads. The ability of the gunner far outweighs all the other variables.
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Well said, a good friend likes to say "speed sells"
 
Dakotazeb said:
Give me any gun (12, 16 or 20 ga.) with 1 oz -1 1/4oz. of 5 or 6 shot at 1,200-1,300 fps with an IC or Mod choke and I'll consistently kill pheasants out to 40 yds and maybe even further. It really is that simple. You don't need 1,500 fps or Prairie Storm type loads. The ability of the gunner far outweighs all the other variables.
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I agree 100%, great post George.

Remember those loads we bought at Runnings last year? They worked just fine for me. If I'm able to afford to, I'm going to buy a case or two more from them.
 
This is an interesting discussion. Not long ago I read an article in shotgun sporting magazine, can't remember the name or the edition unfortunately. It explained why hardened and plated shot came about, but the article concluded that with the higher antimony %'s available now, and with a full length shot cup that deformation is reduced to a negligible amount for higher velocity rounds. It did state that the old lower % antimony lead shot might still give problems, but that plated shot is not as necessary as it once was.

The article was posed as a story, a recollection of a discussion between two "old timer" hunters, when one bought copper plated bb's to use in turkey loads.

I have never really gone out and patterned a load. Neither has any of the other hunters I know, we just found loads with stats we liked and rolled out, sometimes we'd only "dust" a bird, and sometimes we'd tear em apart. I think a lot more of it depends on shooter ability or the lucky golden pellet. Occasionally a reoccurring joke comes up about phez getting kevlar feathers.
 
I have a Winchester .410 that was my dad's and he used 4 shot in it for quail and phez in the 1970's over a gsp. I still use that gun on rabbit and squirrel and use 6 shot with it for that purpose.
 
jnormanh said:
There have been some interesting studies done about why people miss. Common wisdom is that people miss behind, but it's been shown that most miss by shooting over.

Shooting over results from not getting the gun fully up on the shoulder, and the cheek hard against the stock. An eye 1/2" high above the barrel will result in shooting two feet high at 40 yards.

If you're missing birds (or targets) try using the same forward lead plus one or two feet under.
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This was certainly a problem I discovered I had. There has never been a more frustrated bird shooter than me! My Dad kept telling me "You're not leading them enough and I tried every lead known to man! Thatwas the most valuable thiing about wing shooting I ever learned. Lead doesn't matter if you're shooting over them! I'm glad I saw this thread, because even though I have much improved I guess I'm still sensitive about it, and glad to discover I'm not the only one! Free at last! Hooowaah!
 
birdshooter said:
Could that have been a problem with gun fit? This can be easily checked at the patterning board.
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I do better now and have a better fitting gun that seems to shoot where I;m looking. My Dad was badly crippled by polio when a child and he could not hunt with me much so I pretty much had to learn on my own. I knew nothing about fit and patterning, and got to shoot less than a box of shells a year! I was a pretty good rifle shooter, but the shotgun eluded me. It was back in the late 50's and early sixties when I was old enough to go hunting, and I grew up in town. It is hard to learn shotgunning with those circumstances. Boys on the farm were way ahead of me!
 
birdshooter said:
Could that have been a problem with gun fit? This can be easily checked at the patterning board.
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I had a bad day once in a Dove field with my Browning 20 gauge O/U and decided that I needed to try a mid bead on my barrel like my skeet gun. Fortunatly I have a small lathe so I went home and measured the O/U skeet gun and fashioned one just like it for the field gun. A little careful drilling on the ventilated rib, wash off the cutting oil with some coleman fuel or acitone and epoxy it on. Next day I turned the game around and the birds lost:thumbsup:
I have done this now to 3 more guns for myself, my son and a good friend. It is a real visual clue that you are looking over the top of the barrel if you see two beads down the barrel. Of course you don't want to look at the beads when shooting but a little training on clays and it works wonderfully in the field when you have trained yourself to keep your head down and quit trying to look over the top of the barrel and watch a bird mysteriously fall out of the sky when you shoot over the top of them.:cheers:
 
wolfcreek- that's a good post
I have a 20 Citori with that low front bead
I have a Berreta AL2 with an orange front bead and a middle tiny white bead

when I flip up the Citori I don't see the front bead
when I flip up the Beretta I don't see the tiny white nor the front orange bead

neither gun has been custom fitted- both shoot where I look- or sort of

the other day I did a bit of paper testing- realized there was a middle bead on the Beretta- sort of shocking- it's been there for 15 years

on a covey rise or a rising rooster- never notice a difference of beads or such

hum- maybe I should think about these
 
wolfcreeknc said:
"quit trying to look over the top of the barrel and watch a bird mysteriously fall out of the sky when you shoot over the top of them.:cheers:
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"

That is a well said sentence! Nailled me to the barn door! It was certainly a mystery for me!!! I think I'll look into putting on a bead myself.:thumbsup:
 
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