Intersting discussion on shotgun velocity

O

oldandnew

Active member
I have been researching loads for shotguns, including pressures, and velocity. Came across tow different studies which indicated that lead loads, ( 97% lead 3% antimony), in excess of approximately 1200 fps, resulted in pellet deformation and correspondent irregular patterns. Tinkering with throw weight and powder charge to lower the velocity to the 1200 fps range, (anywhere from 1100-1250), cured the irregularities in most guns. Shot sizes seemed to be non-consiquential, within reason, meaning 5,6,7,7 1/2,8,9. True for Black Powder and Smokeless alike. 12, 16 ,20 gauge, as performed. Anybody here this theory before? or experience this? Sometimes called the speed of sound theory of ballistics. What does that say about the newer hyper fast loads on the market.
 
Until you pattern the various loads in your gun you will never know which perfroms the best. I do believe your are correct in your theory that high velocity loads "may" blow some patterns. I've also been a long time believer that trying to stuff too much shot (i.e. more than 1 1/4 oz in a 12 ga., 1 1/8 oz in a 16 ga. or 1 oz. in a 20 ga.) down a barrel will also blow patterns.
 
I have nothing scientific to base this on, but I don't use the high velocity loads any more. I think I shoot better with slower loads.
 
oldandnew said:
. Came across tow different studies which indicated that lead loads, ( 97% lead 3% antimony), in excess of approximately 1200 fps, resulted in pellet deformation and correspondent irregular patterns.
Click to expand...

Care to share what the studies were.
 
Those studies have been around for years. Yes they are true, but as zeb pointed out each gun is different and you shoot what is best for that gun. My 20 gauge O/U for example; does not like 1185 speed shells on pheasant. They don't do much in the way of bringing the bird down. But use 1220 loads and that changes, they all drop like a rock.......Bob
 
Let's see, in order to properly anchor a pheasant we need to take the following into consideration:

Each individual shotgun
Gauge
Shot size
Choke
Pattern Density
Shot penetration
Shot string length
Passing shot or straight away
Weather conditions
Shooter's ability

Crap, I'm going to have to carry my laptop in the field to figure all this out! :D
 
On the other hand.

Optimizing patterns, gun ga., types / sizes of shot etc. is fine.

Anchoring birds "ain't rocket science" either. When I am having an off day,
i.e. "C.H.S. syndrome" (that is - can't hit sh&^^%), it does not matter what the
hell I am shooting. If I am not putting the pattern on the bird, or even the front end, optimization does me no good.
I do pattern all my guns. If I am shooting decently the birds go down.
Yes, I am guilty of being an inconsistent wing shooter. When you have it perfected let me know. I find trying to optimize different phases of the shooting /shot equation is a very effective way to kill some of the offseaon.
Money well spent for me would probably be trying to optimize my shooting skills by paying for some shooting lessons from a good instructor. Keeping track of the basics & not getting lost in details makes a nice balance for me, personally.
 
Give me any gun (12, 16 or 20 ga.) with 1 oz -1 1/4oz. of 5 or 6 shot at 1,200-1,300 fps with an IC or Mod choke and I'll consistently kill pheasants out to 40 yds and maybe even further. It really is that simple. You don't need 1,500 fps or Prairie Storm type loads. The ability of the gunner far outweighs all the other variables.
 
There Zeb, said it; "The ability of the gunner far outweighs all other variables." Yes the better shot you are the better you will do. The old saying of Practice, Practice and more Practice even holds true is hunting and shooting birds.............Bob
 
Fast loads for fast birds

Dakotazeb said:
Give me any gun (12, 16 or 20 ga.) with 1 oz -1 1/4oz. of 5 or 6 shot at 1,200-1,300 fps with an IC or Mod choke and I'll consistently kill pheasants out to 40 yds and maybe even further. It really is that simple. You don't need 1,500 fps or Prairie Storm type loads. The ability of the gunner far outweighs all the other variables.
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I need all the speed I can find,pheasants on my place fly at least 1500 fps judging by how many almost make it out of my pattern--lots of funny no tail birds around.:p
 
Dakotazeb said:
Give me any gun .... The ability of the gunner far outweighs all the other variables.
Click to expand...


Yep, that about says it all.

Back in the day, way back, When the Winchester 42 pump .410 was in production, the Winchester factory shooters used to demonstrate it on wild pheasants. Using 2.5" shells with 1/2 oz of shot, they could kill pheasants stone dead all day long.
 
I never understood the high velocity lead shot craze. I think it is just an off shoot of the steel shot necessity and the short magnum trend in rifles. More velocity is somehow its own justification. All that turns into a belief you need high velocity to kill pheasants. And the higher the velocity, the deader you can kill them. All higher velocity does is kick you harder. I've been killing pheasant dead for 50 years with shells at about 1200 fps. If you hit'em, they die. If you like shooting those "snot-knocker" rounds, be my guest. You're only fooling yourself and getting beat up in the process.
 
Living in Arkansas and having to travel to hunt pheseant, I have shot a small fraction of what most of you have. However back a few years when waterfowling was legal with lead I shot a ton of big ol fat Mallards and Gadwalls with loads in the 1200-1250fps range out to 40-45 yards. Ample velocity and usually good patterns with most guns I tried.

I still seek velocity today with steel loads for waterfowling, but that is about the only place I think I need the super-fast stuff.

BobM
 
sneem said:
I never understood the high velocity lead shot craze. I think it is just an off shoot of the steel shot necessity and the short magnum trend in rifles. More velocity is somehow its own justification. .
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I think the reason for the "high velocity craze" is clear...most people percieve they miss "behind" the bird. In theory, a 10-15% faster pay-load would solve that problem.

Personally, I've gone back and forth on the topic, and, have resigned myself to just try and shoot better with standard velocity loads. I like the idea of an optimal pattern/string headed toward my birds.
 
jnormanh said:
Yep, that about says it all.

Back in the day, way back, When the Winchester 42 pump .410 was in production, the Winchester factory shooters used to demonstrate it on wild pheasants. Using 2.5" shells with 1/2 oz of shot, they could kill pheasants stone dead all day long.
Click to expand...

interesting-
Dave Trombly, Ernie Simmons, Floyd Hodgon, and Junio Dixon had an argument about good shooters and any gun since they were pretty even on the skeet range- so the talk worked arround to The Olathe Gun Shop providing a couple 410's- to a sort of beat the guy walking in on a point

20 yards they were pretty sharp- past 20- the dogs had to really work- and a few birds were lost

I walked with Junior a few hours- he wouldn't bet the 410 over a 20
 
siouxcitysmitty said:
I think the reason for the "high velocity craze" is clear...most people percieve they miss "behind" the bird. In theory, a 10-15% faster pay-load would solve that problem.
.
Click to expand...

There have been some interesting studies done about why people miss. Common wisdom is that people miss behind, but it's been shown that most miss by shooting over.

Shooting over results from not getting the gun fully up on the shoulder, and the cheek hard against the stock. An eye 1/2" high above the barrel will result in shooting two feet high at 40 yards.

If you're missing birds (or targets) try using the same forward lead plus one or two feet under.
 
Shadow said:
interesting-
Dave Trombly, Ernie Simmons, Floyd Hodgon, and Junio Dixon had an argument about good shooters and any gun since they were pretty even on the skeet range- so the talk worked arround to The Olathe Gun Shop providing a couple 410's- to a sort of beat the guy walking in on a point

20 yards they were pretty sharp- past 20- the dogs had to really work- and a few birds were lost

I walked with Junior a few hours- he wouldn't bet the 410 over a 20
Click to expand...

I certainly wouldn't pick a .410 either. I've tried to shoot quail with a .410, and didn't do very well, but I think it's the smaller pattern (most .410 are choked at least modified, many full). I did learn that if you hit quail with the center of the pattern in a full-choke .410, it'll make hamburger of them out to 30 yards. True experts can kill birds with the .410, but they can center up birds and don't have to rely on using the edges of a larger pattern.
 
siouxcitysmitty said:
I think the reason for the "high velocity craze" is clear...most people percieve they miss "behind" the bird. In theory, a 10-15% faster pay-load would solve that problem.

Personally, I've gone back and forth on the topic, and, have resigned myself to just try and shoot better with standard velocity loads. I like the idea of an optimal pattern/string headed toward my birds.
Click to expand...

Many people have succumb to the belief that bigger and faster than it must be better theory, not always the case obviously. Find something that you have confidence in that works and stick with it. That's my theory. :cheers:
 
I think pointed or close rising pheasants would be a lot easier to hit with a .410 than say passing mourning doves, or quail in brush. Killing power, defined by the number of pellets that hit the vitals, might be the problem. To me it's about what constitutes sport, and a clean kill is a big part of the equation. So I like to use enough shot to get the job done in most circumstances. I started this thread and have long believed that shot placement is paramount, and with lead shot, a standard velocity of 1050-1200 fps is adequete for all shotgun game. The rest is marketing, along with perfectly round or special "cutting shot", ( why not just use gravel), copper dipped, (not plated, and all that is available, there's a big difference), all are better lures to catch fishermen, and seperate them from their dollars, in the fine Madison Ave tradition. Money better spent at the range actually shooting or patterning. If you want to be a good shot, you need to shoot a lot, can't buy profficiency in a box, or a special choke tube.
 
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