How BIG is to BIG

the bottom line gentleman is trhat you need to set a boundary so to speak with the dog if you want him 100 yards before checking in then let him do it and not an inch farther if you like 20 -30 yrds then that is where he should stay I guess I'm lucky from the time my dogs are pups i teach them what I want and by the time the season rolls around its like magic if I give them their heads so to speak then they will go farther if I want them close then thats how I work them
 
I have watched this thread since it began and to be totally honest I wasn't going to respond to it for the simple fact that us humans are as different from one another as are dogs are from each other. To me as long as I can control my dog there is no such thing as too far. In the game of WILD bird hunting you are going to get bumps and radical flushes just for the simple fact that some birds are smarter than others or some may have higher survival instincts than others. I mean look at the amount of birds harvested a year vs the total population brag as we may but we really only kill the dumb ones except for the few that are missed by poor shots. Now for the meat and potatoes of this topic, depending on the species that I am hunting I will generally hunt different and I think we can all agree on this. If I am hunting quail it is nothing to let my dogs range quite far just for the simple fact that quail are more prone to sit and stay steady to a point. Pheasant require a little different tactic but this is not to say that ranging a dog still isn't on your side, I would much rather my GSP hit a bird lock it down then realize the bird has left and rather than dog it for the next 100 yds or so til it flushes actually break off and hook that bird to where it is now looking it in the face. Wind has alot to do with it and believe me I know this but not nearly as well as my dog does, we need things or divices to tell us wind direction and speed where a dog can do this all on the fly and very rarelly mess up too. Most missed chances afield are accreditted to the hunter not the dog. In KS where birds are many I don't consider the birds shooting out the side of cover to be bumped birds because on some days it seems like a field mouse farting would send those birds in the air as well. Bottom line cover, terrain, conditions, and species really dictate how I will hunt my dogs but with that being said I still put my trust in them since they are the better hunter out of the duo. A good bird dog needs birds and time afield to truelly master the game of bird hunting there are no substitutes.
 
I have watched this thread since it began and to be totally honest I wasn't going to respond to it for the simple fact that us humans are as different from one another as are dogs are from each other. To me as long as I can control my dog there is no such thing as too far. In the game of WILD bird hunting you are going to get bumps and radical flushes just for the simple fact that some birds are smarter than others or some may have higher survival instincts than others. I mean look at the amount of birds harvested a year vs the total population brag as we may but we really only kill the dumb ones except for the few that are missed by poor shots. Now for the meat and potatoes of this topic, depending on the species that I am hunting I will generally hunt different and I think we can all agree on this. If I am hunting quail it is nothing to let my dogs range quite far just for the simple fact that quail are more prone to sit and stay steady to a point. Pheasant require a little different tactic but this is not to say that ranging a dog still isn't on your side, I would much rather my GSP hit a bird lock it down then realize the bird has left and rather than dog it for the next 100 yds or so til it flushes actually break off and hook that bird to where it is now looking it in the face. Wind has alot to do with it and believe me I know this but not nearly as well as my dog does, we need things or divices to tell us wind direction and speed where a dog can do this all on the fly and very rarelly mess up too. Most missed chances afield are accreditted to the hunter not the dog. In KS where birds are many I don't consider the birds shooting out the side of cover to be bumped birds because on some days it seems like a field mouse farting would send those birds in the air as well. Bottom line cover, terrain, conditions, and species really dictate how I will hunt my dogs but with that being said I still put my trust in them since they are the better hunter out of the duo. A good bird dog needs birds and time afield to truelly master the game of bird hunting there are no substitutes.

Very well put and I totally agree with you. I think that is what I have been trying to say in my posts to this thread.

a field mouse farting would send those birds in the air

This just really cracked me up. :thumbsup:
 
Field mouse farts, thanks I have a new excuse to use now! :)

Always interesting to discuss range but I think there are so many variables it's hard to have a decent discussion.

In my experience most hunters dramatically OVERstate actual range of their dogs.

Flushers definately require a lot less range than do pointers. I saw some disagreement on that, but from my experience, very short ranging pointers just push hard-hunted pheasants ahead of them--running-- and either never pin them or the birds just get tired of the chase and flush out way ahead.

Most of my post will focus on pointing dogs.

Cover matters a great deal--if your CRP field is short brome or tall switchgrass, ideal range is going to differ dramatically. Basically where you can see your dog very well there's no harm in letting an honest pointer who can be trusted on it's birds to roam. the classic western shortgrass prairie in rolling hill country where you may well be able to see your dog for hundreds of yards is kind of the extreme end for me. Love to watch dogs work at soem distance there. Cattails is the other end--I don't think they are ideal for most pointing dogs to work but if you are in them, the dog should be very close. I'll work edges of cattails a lot like someone else said--that works pretty well at times when there's a fringe of them next to water--not as well when it's the start of acres and acres of cattails. The birds can get pinned in the former, they keep running in the latter--and pointers in my experience seem to have more trouble with busting them in cattails. Follow foot scent fine but they don't seem to be able to recognize when they are too close and stop to point.

Most of the better dogs adjust their range to the cover and work towards objectives. IF they are allowed to do so on their own during initial training as a youngster. If you are constantly hacking on them to keep them in that magic 50 yard zone they may never truly develop the skills or confidence they need to be real stars, in my opinion.

The true trial types that run edges can work if they are honest on the birds they might find on those edges and then turn and come back towards you after running that edge--and are honest on any bird there--AND you can see them work. That last point is where I fall out much of the time and thus would not want a true trial type big edge-running dog for hunting, ever.

Re: range training, I'm just not a fan of calling dogs back in when you can't see them. Especially with young dogs, who may well be working a bird out of your sight. Think about that--a youngster is pointing a bird out of your sight--you think it's too far away--so you hit the e-collar or blast on the whistle demanding it come to you? Recipe for problems!

I'm not sure I see a need for a pointing dog to be forced to work any closer than 75 yards or so if you are working somewhat open country where you can see the dog often enough to know approximately where it is and get to a point reasonably soon (talking pheasants now).

But even that has it's variables. I have an old timer that will run out to 100 yards or a bit more when working with the wind--then turn around and work back towards me.

Then there's the classic running bird. I see this often with the hard-hunted public land late-season pheasants I often chase. A dog may get on a bird at 25 yards and trail it for 100 before it pins it. In that situation if you don't know what is happening and start hacking at your dog to come back that bird is going to be lost. Which is a real shame...there's no better feeling than watching your dog work and finally pin a savvy running rooster!
 
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i have also been watching this thread from the begining, thanks for everyones imput. i have learned alot, not only about how people, run there dogs, but the different hunting styles people employ in different parts of the country.

tim and george, you really got me thinking. great thread.:cheers:
 
Glad to see that this thread was able to help more than one person. I really think threads like this are good threads because they bring alot of peoples opinions and beliefs to the table, where others are able to pick through what they read and possibly adopt some new ones of thier own even.
 
In my experience most hunters dramatically OVERstate actual range of their dogs.

Couldn't agree more.


Most of the better dogs adjust their range to the cover and work towards objectives. IF they are allowed to do so on their own during initial training as a youngster. If you are constantly hacking on them to keep them in that magic 50 yard zone they may never truly develop the skills or confidence they need to be real stars, in my opinion.

Again, couldn't agree more.

Re: range training, I'm just not a fan of calling dogs back in when you can't see them. Especially with young dogs, who may well be working a bird out of your sight. Think about that--a youngster is pointing a bird out of your sight--you think it's too far away--so you hit the e-collar or blast on the whistle demanding it come to you? Recipe for problems!

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, couldn't agree more. Rule number one NEVER stim a dog that you can't see, not ever.

!

If a dog is honest with his birds, I want him running BIG. If he's not honest with his birds, then we have more work to do. But the answer isn't to real him in. Remember, it is FAR easier to real them in than it is to push them out. I can't stand a boot licker. Get out there and find a bird!
 
If a dog is honest with his birds, I want him running BIG. If he's not honest with his birds, then we have more work to do. But the answer isn't to real him in. Remember, it is FAR easier to real them in than it is to push them out. I can't stand a boot licker. Get out there and find a bird!
could not have been put any better my man a round of applause
if your dog is h8unting 20 yo 30 yrds he isnt finding no freakin birds! i think its called shoe shiner though gsp lol but you hit the nail on the head! GOOD SHOW!
 
Ill throw in my 2-cents even though its not worth nearly that much. :) IMO, like others have said, it totally depends on the dog and the conditions. I have been lucky enough to sit on the both sides of the hunter vs field trialer fence. I grew up hunting pheasants in WA with close hunting brits that had very little training. Now, I have a Brit who has quailified for Nationals as a Horseback Gun Dog at only 21 months of age. She will hit 600+ yards in a heartbeat in the S.D. prairies off horseback (GPS'd distances, not guesses)... To me, its all about the training. IMO most "hunting" dogs aren't trained well enough to run big. They creep, aren't broke, bust birds, and just don't see enough wild birds in their lifetime to be able to really learn how to hunt wild pheasants. For that reason, they need to hunt within gun range in order to kill birds over them. Now, a well trained fully broke pointing dog who has lots of time in the Dakotas hunting and training with wild pheasants is a pure joy to watch. I don't care how big one of those dogs run, because they know how to handle their birds, and you will kill a bunch over them. They still need to be able to adjust their range to the cover, but with the invention of the Garmin Astro, they can point all day long when you cant see them and you will still know exactly where they are, no matter how far away they are...... It isn't easy for a dog to get to this point, they have to see hundreds of wild birds in many different conditions, and they have to be consistently ran on wild birds.. A perfect example is my pup. She spent 3 months last summer outside Winner S.D. with her trainer. By the end of summer she was pinning and pointing wild pheasants like it was a piece of cake. I hunted pheasants over her in the fall and she made it look like kids stuff, even though she was running 100-300 yards out in front of me. Fast forward 1 year. She got to camp in the beginning of July. She had been run on only liberated and planted quail for the previous 8 months. To say she went "bowling for birds" would be an understatement according to the trainer. He said it took her a while to get back into the swing of wild pheasants again, but now she is doing fine on them and pinning and pointing them like a seasoned pro. But, it took several weeks and probably 50-80 points for her to stop crowding and not to bump the birds (points, not birds. Some points produce 50+ birds flushing all around her). 50-80 points is more then many hunting dogs will get all season.

To the average joe hunter who hunts pheasants a couple times a year, 50 yards if probably as big as Id want my dog to run (this was me growing up). But to the guy who lives in S.D. or Kansas and hunts 30 or 40 times a year, with dogs who really know wild birds, and are trained properly, I would have no problem with my dog running as big as they wanted. 500+ yards doesn't bother me at all. BTW.. After running dogs on a Garmin, you realize that 500 yards really isn't that far. I feel like my dogs a boot licker when shes inside 100 now days.
 
Ill throw in my 2-cents even though its not worth nearly that much. :) IMO, like others have said, it totally depends on the dog and the conditions. I have been lucky enough to sit on the both sides of the hunter vs field trialer fence. I grew up hunting pheasants in WA with close hunting brits that had very little training. Now, I have a Brit who has quailified for Nationals as a Horseback Gun Dog at only 21 months of age. She will hit 600+ yards in a heartbeat in the S.D. prairies off horseback (GPS'd distances, not guesses)... To me, its all about the training. IMO most "hunting" dogs aren't trained well enough to run big. They creep, aren't broke, bust birds, and just don't see enough wild birds in their lifetime to be able to really learn how to hunt wild pheasants. For that reason, they need to hunt within gun range in order to kill birds over them. Now, a well trained fully broke pointing dog who has lots of time in the Dakotas hunting and training with wild pheasants is a pure joy to watch. I don't care how big one of those dogs run, because they know how to handle their birds, and you will kill a bunch over them. They still need to be able to adjust their range to the cover, but with the invention of the Garmin Astro, they can point all day long when you cant see them and you will still know exactly where they are, no matter how far away they are...... It isn't easy for a dog to get to this point, they have to see hundreds of wild birds in many different conditions, and they have to be consistently ran on wild birds.. A perfect example is my pup. She spent 3 months last summer outside Winner S.D. with her trainer. By the end of summer she was pinning and pointing wild pheasants like it was a piece of cake. I hunted pheasants over her in the fall and she made it look like kids stuff, even though she was running 100-300 yards out in front of me. Fast forward 1 year. She got to camp in the beginning of July. She had been run on only liberated and planted quail for the previous 8 months. To say she went "bowling for birds" would be an understatement according to the trainer. He said it took her a while to get back into the swing of wild pheasants again, but now she is doing fine on them and pinning and pointing them like a seasoned pro. But, it took several weeks and probably 50-80 points for her to stop crowding and not to bump the birds (points, not birds. Some points produce 50+ birds flushing all around her). 50-80 points is more then many hunting dogs will get all season.

To the average joe hunter who hunts pheasants a couple times a year, 50 yards if probably as big as Id want my dog to run (this was me growing up). But to the guy who lives in S.D. or Kansas and hunts 30 or 40 times a year, with dogs who really know wild birds, and are trained properly, I would have no problem with my dog running as big as they wanted. 500+ yards doesn't bother me at all. BTW.. After running dogs on a Garmin, you realize that 500 yards really isn't that far. I feel like my dogs a boot licker when shes inside 100 now days.
i will go for that ! agreed it takes birds and lots of them to make a bird dog and to handle pheas thats a diff story i like a 100 and back or quartering whatever a guy likes
 
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