Herbicide usage-Too much of a good(or bad)thing?

[jaytee]

One thing that I've come to notice over the several years of doing habitat improvement work here on my farm and in helping others with theirs, is that we as "conservationist" get caught up in wanting our plots to look like a production ag field. And I admit when I first started planting food plots, I wanted them to look "good" and at the time to me that meant nice even rows of beans or corn and not a weed in sight. I guess I thought that the deer and other critters would use it more and it also gave the impression that I was really keeping on top of things, putting in lots of hours, spelled M-O-N-E-Y, all for the benefit of the wildlife, and if it happened to stroke the ole ego along the way well that was okay too. However upon looking back, I think this was a big mistake on my part. I understand the desire to have a weed free plot, afterall we are spending several dollars on seed, fert. ect., not to mention the time invested so naturally we want this to be a success. But success can have several different looks. I guess its like beauty, its in the eye of the beholder.

After attending many different seminars over the past seveal years and listening to a plethora of speakers, reading article upon article online and in print, I've come to realize that weeds are a plotters best friend, and a quails too. In fact, just this past weekend at Pheasant Fest, I had the pleasure of sitting in on a seminar by Scott Sudkamp of the MDC about brood rearing habitat. This was the second seminar I've attended that was given by Scott, the previous one being up at Bradford Farms on the MU reasearch facility near Columbia. The message hammered home was that we need more weeds, or on the flip side, we are killing too many weeds when we put in food plots. Weeds provide outstanding brood rearing habitat not only for quail but they provide a valuable food source to pheasants and rabbits. Weeds attract bugs and bugs are a quail chicks main source of protien in their early days. You kill the weeds and you've eliminated bugs, thus making chick survival even more difficult, and thats the last thing that a quail chick needs.

So, I've decided to make a change in my food plotting strategy. While I will not totally eliminate the usage of gly or other weed killers, I am going to significantly cut back. I do think they(herbicides) have their place, mainly to give your plot a jumpstart, which is how I plan on using them in the future. For instance last year when I planted some RR corn and beans, and I'm only talking a couple acres total here, I got the plants established in a nice seed bed and after a few weeks the weeds started creeping in. I let the corn and beans get to the proper stage of growth and then I hit the plot with a mix of gly that was mixed just only as strong as it needed to be. The weeds were killed and or set back and the corn and beans took off. Then later in the summer I had more weeds coming back in but this time I just let 'em grow whereas in years past I would've fired up the 4 wheeler, mixed up a tank full of RU and sprayed the plots again. And as summer turned to fall, not only did I have a pretty good stand of corn, I also had some nice weeds growing in between the rows providing a food source and plenty of bugs. I couldn't have been happier. And, I also flushed a covey out of this corn on several occassions and had a multitude of songbirds and other small game utilizing this area as well.

So in closing, I'd like to issue a challenge to everyone of you out there who is doing habitat improvement work to really take a good hard look at your herbicide usage and see if you can find ways to curtail it. Granted, its going to mean that your farm is going to have more weeds, your neighbors may sneer and talk behind your back but I think you'll find that it'll be worth it in the long run. Not only will it be beneficial to the quail and small game, but it'll also keep more money in your pocket and free up some time. Again, I'm not suggesting that we totally eliminate it by any means, but I do think we can accomplish more by using less.

 

[UGUIDE]

JT, I admire the spirit of the message but if you come out to my farm I will show you the biggest patches of giant foxtail you have ever seen due to not going with the full rate of herbicide. Never again. You ever seen a long haired dog come out of a patch of GF? Nasty!

 

[Prairie Drifter]

Jaytee,

MOST people put way too much emphasis on food plots. In the lower latitudes and, more especially for quail, food plots play a minor role in providing you birds to hunt. The thing is, if you haven't emphasized nesting and brood-rearing habitat to start with to "MAKE" birds early in the year, the food plots will sit there available for what? It's a rare year that food plots are needed in Kansas or Missouri or points south in order to overwinter quail. Generally, quail select wild seed over crop seed when available anyway. The same "weed" habitat you develop or maintain for the brood-rearing habitat double as fall and winter food in many cases. I have an article about a single farm whose only management change was strip disking. In 3 years they increased their quail coveys from 16-18 to in the 60's just by increasing the low successional habitat (brood/food) by strip disking. I would say that many farms could see similar responses from this type of management. Unfortunately, far too many people get caught up in a "if you plant it they will come" mentality. Historically, when did we see quail booms? After a significant disturbance. That might have been early breakout farming or it could have been the year after a million bison passed through. Either way, soil disturbance and the resulting low successional habitat is what spurred the spike in reproduction. THE MOST CRITICAL PERIOD FOR QUAIL PRODUCTION IS LONG BEFORE THE FOOD PLOTS MATURE! Gotta hatch them and get them to adulthood before you can count them over the ventilated rib!

 

[1GB]

I'm working towards being herbicide-free. I don't necessarily trust the "research" that chemicals break down. What I spray goes somewhere. Each year for the past three years I've used less and less.

- I've replaced RU applications to young NWSG areas with timely mowing

- Intend to prepare seedbeds by discing as necessary instead of spraying (FWIW I never sprayed after planting because I like weedy plots)

- Use mowing on perennials and crop rotations both annual and perennial plots for deer reasonably managed while keeping less desirable things in check

I'm not sure what it will take to wake up the majority of plotters to realize that picture-perfect plots aren't really desirable. I suspect the desire for monocultures developed somewhere right along the lines of RMS and the desire to keep things "neat", "tidy" or "proper".

 

[jaytee]

Troy I agree whole heartedly about folks putting way to much emphasis on food plots. Actually, my plots that I put in are more intended for deer then quail, but I provide food for the quail by letting the plots grow up in weeds as the summer progresses. And I do my share of strip discing along edges as well. The whole point of my post was to maybe shed some light on what I percieve as too much importance being placed on weed free plots and the means in which most folks attain them. Like Scott Sudkamp with the MDC said, we all need to embrace the weed, he's even got a weed lovers creed that he gets the audience to recite with him during his talks, its quite entertaining. Part of it says I will not do any recreational mowing on my farm, which is a whole 'nother topic in itself.:cheers:

 

[oldandnew]

How much fuel could we save by limiting right of way mowings and replacement with native grasses, and how many species of wildlife would benefit. Air quality?

 

[Prairie Drifter]

I did realize that Jaytee, I was adding to your emphasis by restating that we need to concentrate on getting the max out of nesting and brood-rearing or the food plot work is for naught! Rarely does food plot work increase the current year's population. Their greatest contribution from the population perspective is to increase the number and health of next year's breeding birds.

 

[haymaker]

How much fuel could we save by limiting right of way mowings and replacement with native grasses, and how many species of wildlife would benefit. Air quality?

My friend you lost me on this one. I don't know about Missouri, and I don't know whether you are talking about Hiways with a lot of traffic or rural roads. In this area roads need to be cut by law for the reason of keeping the roads open in the winter. Quite frankly the last place I want wildlife is beside a road where it can get run over. I would much rather they find some safer place.

 

[jaytee]

I also agree with what you said haymaker. I'd lots rather have the roadsides clear as well as the fencerows up next to the roads, might just help keep the critters out of harms way. But mowing/clearing fencerows further into a property can only have a negative impact on small/upland game.

 

[oldandnew]

My friend you lost me on this one. I don't know about Missouri, and I don't know whether you are talking about Hiways with a lot of traffic or rural roads. In this area roads need to be cut by law for the reason of keeping the roads open in the winter. Quite frankly the last place I want wildlife is beside a road where it can get run over. I would much rather they find some safer place.

Admittedly poor attempt at habitat, but some places all we have. i read some study that indicated some huge percentage of successful nests were in roadside righ of ways, in some states. They never said how many made it after the hatch.

 

[Phil V.]

Here in Indiana it is illegal to hunt along the right of way. If you get caught doing it you get in serious trouble. I know one guy that lost his gun and truck doing it.

 

[Downtown Bang!]

My friend you lost me on this one. I don't know about Missouri, and I don't know whether you are talking about Hiways with a lot of traffic or rural roads. In this area roads need to be cut by law for the reason of keeping the roads open in the winter. Quite frankly the last place I want wildlife is beside a road where it can get run over. I would much rather they find some safer place.

South Dakota is fortunate. In most states practically the only undisturbed habitat farmland wildlife have available is in road R.O.W.'s, railroad R.O.W.'s, (too) narrow riparian areas along streams & rivers and if lucky a few thousand highly isolated acres of state game properties. Everything else is tilled, pastured, used for confinement feeding operations or if too steep to do any of those timbered.

There is one other land use that is popping up all over the rural midwest. Hobby horse farms with carefully manicured turf that would make the greenskeeper at Augusta National proud. Not even whitetail deer or turkey can make a go of it in that habitat.

 

[jimmy j]

On my crp it is in my plan to have a food plot but it has to be in the same place every year and is about an acre in size so I have been disking and planting one half of the plot and letting the other half grow up in weeds and then next year switching the halves. Now my plots have a lot of cuckleburs so have been using ru to help control these weeds as anyone who has hunted in these weeds knows they can be rough on both dogs and people but only do where planted that year.

 

[birddog456]

Here in Indiana it is illegal to hunt along the right of way. If you get caught doing it you get in serious trouble. I know one guy that lost his gun and truck doing it.

Are you referring to roadway ROW's, railroad ROW's, or both? Don't like hearing about people in trouble, because it sheds a bad light on the rest of us hunters. This is usually a case of ignorance brought on because they don't know the law, (which is why they give you rule and regulations pamphlet when you purchase license... no mulligan's allowed here), or blatant disregard(you're damn lucky they only took you gun and truck, AS#%&*!!)! Just goes to show that the game wardens mean business.
Regardless, the context of this thread had been habitat and herbicides.
Replanting 67 acres of crp this spring. Mowed last fall but we didn't get the moisture required for green-up to get an effective round-up kill. I am planting 46 acres in journey tollerant tallgrass prairie. So this spring I will have to round-up first, plant seed(switchgrass plots, fire breaks, pollinator mix, foodplots, and tallgrass). Next I will have to strategically spray journey on 46 acres. Why did I decide on journey? Talked to a few people that swear by it, no mowing necessary. As out of state landowner, don't have time to mow 3 times a year, or money at $25/ acre.
If anyone has any positive input or knowledge to help me with my project, please chime in. I don't like the idea of doing 2 chemical treatments that close together, either. Any body else seen or heard of journey ready projects?
P S ; I will not spray my food plots after planting

 

[birddog456]

Here in Indiana it is illegal to hunt along the right of way. If you get caught doing it you get in serious trouble. I know one guy that lost his gun and truck doing it.

Are you referring to roadway ROW's, railroad ROW's, or both? Don't like hearing about people in trouble, because it sheds a bad light on the rest of us hunters. This is usually a case of ignorance brought on because they don't know the law, (which is why they give you rule and regulations pamphlet when you purchase license... no mulligan's allowed here), or blatant disregard(you're damn lucky they only took you gun and truck, AS#%&*!!)! Just goes to show that the game wardens mean business.
Regardless, the context of this thread had been habitat and herbicides.
Replanting 67 acres of crp this spring. Mowed last fall but we didn't get the moisture required for green-up to get an effective round-up kill. I am planting 46 acres in journey tollerant tallgrass prairie. So this spring I will have to round-up first, plant seed(switchgrass plots, fire breaks, pollinator mix, foodplots, and tallgrass). Next I will have to strategically spray journey on 46 acres. Why did I decide on journey? Talked to a few people that swear by it, no mowing necessary. As out of state landowner, don't have time to mow 3 times a year, or money at $25/ acre.
If anyone has any positive input or knowledge to help me with my project, please chime in. I don't like the idea of doing 2 chemical treatments that close together, either. Any body else seen or heard of journey ready projects?
P S ; I will not spray my food plots after planting

 

[Phil V.]

It's both. Been that way for a long time now. I used to hunt rabbit along the railroad before they outlawed it. If they catch you hunting along either one at the very least you get fined for it around where I live. That's what they do the first time after that you lose your gun and vehicle.

 

[huntsem]

The catch 22 is that herbicides are often most heavily used early in the spring when ground nesting hens feed more intently on invertebrates such as snails, ground worms, etc. for egg production and also when smaller more biologically vulnerable newly hatched critters also feed heavily on a variety of small green weeds, sprouts, invertebrates and insects.

I've read reports claiming that regular and repeated use of glyphosate mixes tend to degrade soil qualities and nitrogen uptake so that increased artificial fertilizer applications are required.

So what did folks do before the mid 70's when most common chemical herbicides weren't available?...(and before upland game species began a nationwide decline )

Glyphosate (Roundup) toxicity - impacts on the environment and non-target species
EFFECT ON SOIL
Glyphosate when it comes into contact with soil is adsorbed onto soil particles, binding to soil in a similar way to phosphates, remaining residual for many years . Adsorption of glyphosate is higher in soils containing clay and organic matter than in sandy loam soils. (4)

Glyphosate bound to soil particles can remain active and may be released from soil and taken up by plants. The US-EPA has also stated that many endangered plants may be at risk from glyphosate use in conservation areas.

Glyphosate in soil takes 140 days to break down to half it’s toxicity and will continue to be taken up by plants from the soil for 2 years and longer.

“Some soil invertebrates including springtails, mites and isopods are also adversely affected by glyphosate. Of nine herbicides tested for their toxicity to soil microorganisms, glyphosate was found to be the second most toxic to a range of bacteria, fungi, actinomycetes and yeasts”

Glyphosate is hazardous to earthworms, Tests using New Zealand’s most common earthworm showed that glyphosate, in amounts as low as 1/20 of standard application rates, reduced its growth and slowed its development.

Roundup inhibits mycorrhizal fungi. Canadian studies have shown that as little as 1 part per million of Roundup can reduce the growth or colonization of mycorrhizal fungi. Mycorrhizal fungi are essential for tree health, collecting nutrients and water to feed their host plant and protecting tree roots from harmful fungi and root rot diseases.

Glyphosate reduces nitrogen fixation. Amounts as small as 2 parts per million have had significant effects, and effects have been measured up to 120 days after spraying.

Ground spraying of Glyphosate can drift up to 400m in still conditions (i.e. no wind)...

See more here; http://permaculture.com.au/online/a...cts-on-the-environment-and-non-target-species

 

[huntsem]

*

I also read about a Nebraska study that showed a high rate of nesting success for pheasants in grassy cover along rural roadways of that region.

Here in much of northern Ohio spraying herbicides and mowing roadway edges are popular when edges get weedy. Most crop production and pasturing also goes right up close to road edges on most active farms.

I sometimes hunt along railroad right of ways in rural areas in N.E. Oho without a problem ...seeing critters is another matter.

*

 

[haymaker]

The catch 22 is that herbicides are often most heavily used early in the spring when ground nesting hens feed more intently on invertebrates such as snails, ground worms, etc. for egg production and also when smaller more biologically vulnerable newly hatched critters also feed heavily on a variety of small green weeds, sprouts, invertebrates and insects.

I've read reports claiming that regular and repeated use of glyphosate mixes tend to degrade soil qualities and nitrogen uptake so that increased artificial fertilizer applications are required.

So what did folks do before the mid 70's when most common chemical herbicides weren't available?...(and before upland game species began a nationwide decline )

In the seventies we did more tillage. We plowed the ground and then we worked it again to smooth it out. We cultivated the corn. We burned alot of diesel and spent alot of hours in the tractor. That made for more erosion potential. So we have traded diesel fuel and erosion for chemicals and less erosion. Maybe we need to plant it all back to grass. Livestock can eat grass, ethanol can be made out of grass, come to think of it wildlife likes grass too.

 

[gobucks]

My old college roomates girlfriend has an enviormental science degree from Duke and works for the Ohio EPA. She told me that herbicides such as roundup arent really all that bad for stream quailty, once its in the dirt it;s pretty well gone. Its the fertilizers/phosphurus that is really really bad.