Hawk predation

I welcome anybody who thinks raptors and furries don't prey on gamebirds, needs to come try and raise a few chickens, or pheasants at my place. Only birds that survive without constant trapping where Phoenix chickens, and gueinias, they roost 30 foot up in a tree, and even then they don't last very long. I have 40 acres, much of it high quality habitat, lots of rabbits, a tenous two coveys of quail, I guard like the chickens, and of course more deer and turkey than is healthy. I am surrounded by a sea of fescue monoculture. Every year I find turkey nests destroyed by predators, usually with the hen killed. I don't believe all wildlife is created equal. While I champion the cause of any threatened species, management to control any species is sound and necessary, whether wolves in Yellowstone or raptors in Missouri.
 
oldandnew said:
I said nothing to dispell the holy mantra of habitat improvement, I clearly stated that with unfragmented and high quality habitat, the balances would favor the prey species, with their rapid ability to reproduce, such does not exist in very many areas today, and certainly will exist in fewer in the future. I realize you spend many more days afield with habitat work than I do, and affect very many more acres, are the acres you manage, presumably high quality habitat, over run with quail, pheasants, rabbits? Or because even though high quality, they are isolated, surrounded by lesser habitat,do they support fewer prey species and concentrate predators, Human and wild alike. I believe that species management has to be done on a broad scale, township size, to be effective. When we can accomplish that, or in areas where by accidental alignment of the stars, these places of habitat exist, the birds will hold their own or even with proper weather flourish. No arguement, on habitat, I'm all in, but simple fact, there's not enough money or public willpower currently to reverse the trend. To many see wildlife as a free resource, taken for granted for generations, national mindset is and has been to force the land to give us more than it can afford to give. The writing is on the wall, lose the habitat, lose the gamebirds and prey species, lose the hawks and owls eventually, small furries too, of course we will all have put up our guns and quit by then.
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Oldandnew, much better response here! It is unfortunate in the US that landowners have the "right" to so mistreat the land under their control. It is a systemic problem across the nation and our own government does the same or worse on federal land that they "manage". As with most things touched my "politics", money talks. Unfortunately, the short-term income often overrides the long-term sustainability. Drive from Wichita to Topeka and look at the cover along the way. I don't understand how these folks can afford to own thousands of acres dominated by eastern redcedar and siberian elm. Let's get cellulosic ethanol plants up and running and chip these trees for their cellulose. It would provide income from those acres and improve them at the same time.

You mentioned productive potential. Fortunately, raptors don't have a high productive potential. They often have only 2-4 eggs and 1 nest per year. Compare that to an average of 14 for quail with a few hens bringing off 2 nests and a very few bringing off 3. Pheasants are different. Once they bring off a nest, they have a hormonal change that prevents them from initiating another nest. That is a significant difference.

Now look at opportunity. If you count and weigh the rodents/acre and compare that to the gamebirds/acre you'll see that all predators have more opportunity and access to rodents than gamebirds. Further, as discussed earlier, many predators are specialists due to their conformation and concentrate on certain species of prey. That is confirmed by scat analysis. Buteos, coyotes, and foxes concentrate on rodents, rabbits, squirrels. Sure, they are opportunists and will take a pheasant or quail when the opportunity presents itself. However, for a buteo to successfully take gamebirds on the wing regularly goes against their structure. They are built for hovering and diving, not chasing and darting. It'd be like taking a B52 into an aerial dog fight.

Bird hunters are horrible at maintaining a significant political surge going. Farmers are much better at it. We need to become the squeaky wheel and push legislation that benefits our gamebirds while also providing wise ag policy. Allowing CRP to be gutted won't do either. Allowing CRP to be raped in this drought so ranchers will keep too many stock than their pastures can support next season isn't going to help either! Quite the opposite. We also need to support our brothers who trap. This too is a management tool. Keeping the fur market strong would help take some pressure off, or at least help us feel better.
 
Prairie Drifter said:
What a load of bull Oldandnew! Predator and prey populations have fluctuated forever. Now that the "game" birds are in a low, it's hardly time to declare all predators the cause. Ma nature dealt this blow with floods, droughts, hail, etc. Much of it is also man made in our zeal for $ and "feeding the world", we have changed the landscape to favor non-native species and unproductive conditions. If all we did was get unproductive grasslands and woodlands into productive stages, we would have game birds out our ears in a few years. A sideways glance at most of Oklahoma, eastern Kansas, eastern Texas, and most points east show how poor land stewardship deal our upland game populations a destructive blow. These predators have evolved with our native game birds for eons and over time things balance out. Why is it so hard to see that time turns to it's own cycles and we (humans) have a difficult time realizing that what's happening today may well be part of one of those cycles? What goes around comes around. We can accelerate the beneficial side of a cycle by working on the successional stage of the habitats that are out of the productive niche. Blaming predators for problems that are a symptom of our human nature as poor land stewards, our flawed agriculture policy, our Smokey the Bear mentality, our desire to put expensive houses in cedar invaded grassland..........the list is almost endless. Predators play their part in marginal habitats, but in quality habitat the gamebirds aren't significantly benefitted by predator removal. It is imperative that we spend our limited wildlife funds on projects that provide a positive benefit to the species for more than the year of the project. The reason our deer and hog populations are booming at the same time that our upland game populations are in a dive relate to the successional stage that the majority of habitat is in. Take the challenge! Get aerial photos of some parcel where you have seen upland bird populations plummet for 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and 2010. Do an anallysis of those photos rating the habitat as excellent, good, fair, and poor and compare the percentages of habitat available. Take the challenge, do the homework!
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http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/predator/index.php

Delta continues to prove that predator management can double nesting success in a area. The only reason they don't talk about hawks, owl's or eagles is because they are unable to manage them. They play a key roll in any Eco system and need to be managed just like any predator.

Truer words have never been spoken. "Predator control is socially unacceptable" So everything always reverts back to habitat. Predator control, the killing of one or more species to benefit another is like blurting out the "N" word at the black entertainment awards. The fact is, PETA, the Humane Society, The World wildlife people, Etc, Etc, Etc would much rather promote wolves, hawks, owls, eagles, Etc. Then ever help species that come under the heading's game bird or game animal. To them dieing by the means of claws and teeth are much better then by a hunters gun. They put animals far ahead of human's and never will push to promote or support any efforts to put the population of a game bird/animal ahead of a non game species. I don't want you to take this wrong, but you came across as leaning that way IMO..You some how believe and stand your position that hawks or other raptors have little effect on game birds.

Why do we have bag limits for human's but not for other predators? Think about that

Onpoint
 
onpoint said:
http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/predator/index.php

Delta continues to prove that predator management can double nesting success in a area. The only reason they don't talk about hawks, owl's or eagles is because they are unable to manage them. They play a key roll in any Eco system and need to be managed just like any predator.

Truer words have never been spoken. "Predator control is socially unacceptable" So everything always reverts back to habitat. Predator control, the killing of one or more species to benefit another is like blurting out the "N" word at the black entertainment awards. The fact is, PETA, the Humane Society, The World wildlife people, Etc, Etc, Etc would much rather promote wolves, hawks, owls, eagles, Etc. Then ever help species that come under the heading's game bird or game animal. To them dieing by the means of claws and teeth are much better then by a hunters gun. They put animals far ahead of human's and never will push to promote or support any efforts to put the population of a game bird/animal ahead of a non game species. I don't want you to take this wrong, but you came across as leaning that way IMO..You some how believe and stand your position that hawks or other raptors have little effect on game birds.

Why do we have bag limits for human's but not for other predators? Think about that

Onpoint
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Onpoint, you do certainly have the more clear view on this subject.
More and more game species are being managed for predators, not for the hunters.
 
I know when the forums' "heavy hitters" are posting. My option on a subject waivers back and forth like a ship on rough seas. lol Nice job posting guys.

Here's a side note from what I've learned from the field the past few years.

There's a large field I hunt in SD. In '09 I sat and watch the pheasants come into roost. I watch a hand full of (what I believe to be) cooper hawks flying around the field and watching for incoming birds.

When a pheasant would land to roost a cooper hawk would dive down on that exact spot and nail the bird. They were eating those birds up and they were out there every evening.

Now the sliver of a silver lining in this story is that last season I did the same thing. Watched hundreds of pheasants come into the roost. Except this time the cooper hawks were gone. They were replaced by a single red tail hawk. He pushed the other hawks out of that area.

Is the red tail killing pheasants? You bet he is. My dog retreived a fresh kill of his. A young wild rooster. He's using a few cotton woods as his perch as he sits and waits for birds to come into the open.

But my point is this; One red tail hawk is better than 4 to 6 cooper hawks focused primarily on pheasants. They seem to be territorial and keep other smaller raptors at bay. As ironic as this may sound, in a time when we can't kill raptors, the red tail my actually be keeping game bird predation down a bit.

Do we need to control raptors? I believe so. Just as the 4 legged predators need managing too.

But the key is a constant year after year trapping campaign. Going into an area and removing a few predators won't do anything but increase litter sizes and so on. You could be doing more harm than good.


Also, onpoint mentioned owls eating the brains of game birds. I've come across pheasants and ruffed grouse that have their heads missing from owls. Don't ask me why they don't eat the rest of the bird. Nevertheless, (as we know) they do hunt and kill game birds.

One more thing--- A funny story from a couple years back; my brother-in-law was hunting turkeys. He had a light weight foam hen decoy placed in a alfalfa field. Within a few minutes of sitting there a big horned owl swooped down and flew off with his decoy. I kid you not. What a meal that had to make. lol
 
I suspect a cursory examination of owl "balls" or pellets would confirm a wide array of hair and bone from any thing smaller than a first calf heifer. Cooper's, and sharp-shinned hawks are bird eaters first and foremost. In our list of culprits, lets be sure to consider the local beloved housecat, sleeps with the kids at night, hunts birds all day. Talk about a politically sensitive target! We get the green light to shoot hawks and owls long before we get Aunt Sally's beloved housecats thinned down. Now that I think about it, I've seen Great Horned owls eat a few cats!
 
Cats are a certain target if I'm hunting. I won't shoot a land owners cat on land I have permission to hunt but on my land or public land. Their dead meat. Cats belong around the buildings or in the house, not wondering the woods and fields.

The Goshawk is #1 in killing Ruff Grouse. Grouse are it's #1 thing to eat and they are very good at what they do. Owl's are thick up in my neck of the woods. Near dusk and just after. You can hear 5-6 or more hooting to one another right from my steps. They are a very good night hunter and have plenty to do with the lack of small game. 20 years ago we had tons of gray and black squirrels, also Snowshoe rabbits(Hare). You see very few squirrel's and not a single rabbit track anywhere. I'm not kidding. I think the Snowshoes are gone for good.
 
I'm sure anybody that has been hunting upland or has been observant while afield has stories of hawks killing gamebirds.

1pheas4, Those Cooper hawks you observed killing pheasants didn't quit killing pheasants because the Red Tail took over. The Coopers simply moved on 1/4 mile.
Besides that, when the Red Tail has it's fill is will likely go into a resting mode and the smaller hawks move back in.
 
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mnmthunting said:
1pheas4, Those Cooper hawks you observed killing pheasants didn't quit killing pheasants because the Red Tail took over. The Coopers simply moved on 1/4 mile.
Besides that, when the Red Tail has it's fill is will likely go into a resting mode and the smaller hawks move back in.
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From what I had seen, over a period of 6-7 days the red tail was the only hawk in that area from late morning to sunset. I didn't witness the cooper hawks returning at any point. Though I wasn't there 24-7 so God only knows if they returned or not at any time.

I agree that those cooper hawks were still killing pheasants on another area, but hopefully they're stuck on secondary/marginal habitat lacking the birds and other game. It seems the primary habitat (in my case) was taken over by the red tail.

Again, just a possible sliver of a silver lining. I am for managing raptor #'s/predator control.
 
oldandnew said:
I suspect a cursory examination of owl "balls" or pellets would confirm a wide array of hair and bone from any thing smaller than a first calf heifer. Cooper's, and sharp-shinned hawks are bird eaters first and foremost. In our list of culprits, lets be sure to consider the local beloved housecat, sleeps with the kids at night, hunts birds all day. Talk about a politically sensitive target! We get the green light to shoot hawks and owls long before we get Aunt Sally's beloved housecats thinned down. Now that I think about it, I've seen Great Horned owls eat a few cats!
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And coyotes love house cats! Sort of makes shooting them a double edged sword.

I went out for a quick hunt yesterday and jumped a Sharpshin that had just killed and started eating a cock. Started at the neck of all places.

While walking this ditch I found four other pheasant kills. I'm presuming the hawks because one was partially eaten with it's neck picked clean.
 
I let any cat walk if within the Safety Zone (660ft). If they are further than that I lay them down.They are certainly up to no good if not staying near the barn. Take no pleasure in killing cats,but as stated above, they are brutal on birds.Also been finding several sharptails picked clean from some kind of bird.
 
Lots of difference between a pet and house cat then those let loose. Do what you got to do.
 
AtTheMurph said:
And coyotes love house cats! Sort of makes shooting them a double edged sword.
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Not to mention how coyotes push the ultimate pheasant hunter out of rural areas; the red fox. Nevertheless, coyotes as you know and I'm sure you agree are out of control and need to be managed.

I've watched coyotes hunt in a grassy field. It's amazing how they are able to stand silently in once place and listen for the slightest movement in the grass, then pounce on their prey.

Imagine what a coyote can do when he gets into a clutch of chicks.

I recently saw a picture of the contents of a coyote's stomach. If I remember correctly the count was 13 young rabbits. 13! One coyote. One meal!

As for those feral cats....shoot those things every chance you get. It's discussing watching "wild" cats grab young pheasants and other wildlife.
 
Predators eat prey . . . it is what it has been for ages. Hawks will take & eat whatever prey they can catch. Out here, the dismal wild bird population is primarily the result of "farming up to the fence/road," and loss of habitat to development. In my opinion, the state does a lousy job of managing the upland bird resource, also. WA State hunters rely heavily on released birds & where birds are released on a relatively frequent basis, Coyotes clean them out within a week; I've confirmed this via my own observations & from discussions with area biologists. We have damn few Red Fox in SE WA, but Coyotes are abundant. Unfortunately, the "good old days" out here are gone, and Raptor predations aren't the primary cause. I will note that the areas where I do find wild birds are relatively devoid of both perches/trees and brushy cover. While I see a fair number of Red Tails in these areas, those I have seen diving or feeding have been focused on rodents. There are quite a few coyotes in these areas and Pheasants are typically big runners & wild flushers year-'round & I have found fairly frequent evidence of 'Yote kills, both of Pheasants & fawns. My most productive Coyote calls are fawn bleats and bird-in-distress calls outside of the mating season . . . go figure. Bunny-in-distress calls are largely worthless, but then again Jack Rabbits & Cottontails are even fewer & farther between, so the numerous Coyotes have focused on those species that are in greater abundance. Relative to Quail, feral & domestic cats have decimated those populations. Asshats who dump cats in the country ought to be flogged; while I have NO problem shooting feral cats, I'd rather I didn't see them at all.
 
1pheas4 said:
Not to mention how coyotes push the ultimate pheasant hunter out of rural areas; the red fox. Nevertheless, coyotes as you know and I'm sure you agree are out of control and need to be managed.

I've watched coyotes hunt in a grassy field. It's amazing how they are able to stand silently in once place and listen for the slightest movement in the grass, then pounce on their prey.

Imagine what a coyote can do when he gets into a clutch of chicks.

I recently saw a picture of the contents of a coyote's stomach. If I remember correctly the count was 13 young rabbits. 13! One coyote. One meal!

As for those feral cats....shoot those things every chance you get. It's discussing watching "wild" cats grab young pheasants and other wildlife.
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I hate cats.....house, feral it doesn't matter. I won't shoot someones pet with a collar but if it's out int he field with me it's as good as buried.

I did get to witness a crazy sight about three years ago. I live in the burbs and was driving on the edge of town along an open grassy field that had been mown. I saw a cat slinky through and slowed to get a good look.

As I was cussing that little sucker out a coyote flashes in out of nowhere and chomped that little bugger. He proabably dashed about 15 yards out of a clump of brush and just slammed that poor kitty before it knew what hit it.
 
AtTheMurph said:
I hate cats.....house, feral it doesn't matter. I won't shoot someones pet with a collar but if it's out int he field with me it's as good as buried.

I did get to witness a crazy sight about three years ago. I live in the burbs and was driving on the edge of town along an open grassy field that had been mown. I saw a cat slinky through and slowed to get a good look.

As I was cussing that little sucker out a coyote flashes in out of nowhere and chomped that little bugger. He proabably dashed about 15 yards out of a clump of brush and just slammed that poor kitty before it knew what hit it.
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So you are the only living creature that gets to eat a pheasant. All other species including cats should be eliminated so you can have pheasants. The cats around my place keep mice and other undesireables from being a problem. They do it well and I feed them well so they stay around. But some pheasant hunter comes along and sees one of my cats without a collar and it is his right to do with that as he sees fit because ??????? My cat on my property but Murph gets to decide what happens because he hates cats. Maybe some counseling would help.
 
haymaker said:
So you are the only living creature that gets to eat a pheasant. All other species including cats should be eliminated so you can have pheasants. The cats around my place keep mice and other undesireables from being a problem. They do it well and I feed them well so they stay around. But some pheasant hunter comes along and sees one of my cats without a collar and it is his right to do with that as he sees fit because ??????? My cat on my property but Murph gets to decide what happens because he hates cats. Maybe some counseling would help.
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I feel guilty because I started the cat thing this time. I have cats too! Problem is the cats dumped or abandoned with no choice but to try and make a living on the land. I can't tell you how many make their way to my house. Common mis-conception is that all cats are voracious pedators, actually many cats are poor hunters, or unmotivated. Research indicates that vision in cats makes all the difference, like humans, individuals have differences in eyesight, cats with poor eyesight are not hunters, and perish if left to survive on their own. I have had an opportunity to test this theory, it is true as near as I can tell, and is definitely inherited. The mousers, are mother, daughters, grand daughters. it's also true that a well fed cat is more likely to be an effective hunter. There are still to many unclaimed cats everywhere, and it's still true that every predator competes year round for gamebirds we hunt, eliminating human opportunities. One point to consider, if there was no predator pressure other than human, we might have a lot more birds, but the sport might resemble shooting chickens in a barnyard. All the qualities we admire about the wild gamebirds, we owe to the life and death, everyday pressure to survive courtesy of the predators, owls and cats included looking for a gamebird dinner. All things in moderation.
 
oldandnew said:
I feel guilty because I started the cat thing this time. I have cats too! Problem is the cats dumped or abandoned with no choice but to try and make a living on the land. I can't tell you how many make their way to my house. Common mis-conception is that all cats are voracious pedators, actually many cats are poor hunters, or unmotivated. Research indicates that vision in cats makes all the difference, like humans, individuals have differences in eyesight, cats with poor eyesight are not hunters, and perish if left to survive on their own. I have had an opportunity to test this theory, it is true as near as I can tell, and is definitely inherited. The mousers, are mother, daughters, grand daughters. it's also true that a well fed cat is more likely to be an effective hunter. There are still to many unclaimed cats everywhere, and it's still true that every predator competes year round for gamebirds we hunt, eliminating human opportunities. One point to consider, if there was no predator pressure other than human, we might have a lot more birds, but the sport might resemble shooting chickens in a barnyard. All the qualities we admire about the wild gamebirds, we owe to the life and death, everyday pressure to survive courtesy of the predators, owls and cats included looking for a gamebird dinner. All things in moderation.
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Thank you! Once again you have stated it well. Pheasants are prey and all predators hunt prey. It is what God intended them to do. What bothers me is not that there may be too many cats or owls of whatever. It is the attitude that somebody that has a gun can shoot somebody elses property on that persons propery because he wants to. What else can they shoot because they want to? To me this is is more about propety rights than about cats or pheasants. Those are the hunters that will keep private property off limits to the good hunters.
 
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