Hawk predation
- Thread starter duppy
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Prairie Drifter
Well-known member
duppy, the first thing in any scientific discourse is to make sure your assumption is factual. So, the first step is to find out whether raptors are actually killing birds. Tough thing for Joe Average to do. In fact, for years it has been a significantly difficult thing for researchers to do. In leiu of direct information, you might look at information from predation surveys. Though there is some variability, there seems to be evidence of some predation, though significant buteo predation on ringnecks may be less frequent. The fact that pheasants and redtailed hawks are in the same area does not make for a determination of predation. Most predator surveys on buteos conclude that they are focused significantly on rodents, rabbits, and hares. Their own physical conformation make them more adept on capturing animals that can't fly.
Now, for prevention. When you look at raptor predation, there are two rationales for minimizing their opportunity that quickly come to mind. First, reducing or eliminating raptor perches makes sense. When a raptor can sit in a tree and hunt without using energy, their threshhold on nutrient need is considerably lower than if they have to work for food. Removing perches reduces their opportunity for "cheap" food and they will be less likely to meet their nutritional need and more likely to continue to more productive environs.
The second method involves modifying a physical phenomenon known as "the cone of vulnerability". The cone of vulnerability is the cone starting from the raptor's eye to the ground where the raptor can see game without the habitat blocking their view. If you narrow this cone, you reduce their efficiency hunting and, therefore, reduce their predation. The primary method to accomplish this is by increasing the height and density of the cover. Various habitat management techniques can be used to promote taller vegetation and increase the stem density. Care must be taken to ensure that the density does not increase to the extent that the habitat is less beneficial to the game. The taller vegetation makes it necessary for the raptor to be more directly over the targeted prey in order to see and attack it.
Now, for prevention. When you look at raptor predation, there are two rationales for minimizing their opportunity that quickly come to mind. First, reducing or eliminating raptor perches makes sense. When a raptor can sit in a tree and hunt without using energy, their threshhold on nutrient need is considerably lower than if they have to work for food. Removing perches reduces their opportunity for "cheap" food and they will be less likely to meet their nutritional need and more likely to continue to more productive environs.
The second method involves modifying a physical phenomenon known as "the cone of vulnerability". The cone of vulnerability is the cone starting from the raptor's eye to the ground where the raptor can see game without the habitat blocking their view. If you narrow this cone, you reduce their efficiency hunting and, therefore, reduce their predation. The primary method to accomplish this is by increasing the height and density of the cover. Various habitat management techniques can be used to promote taller vegetation and increase the stem density. Care must be taken to ensure that the density does not increase to the extent that the habitat is less beneficial to the game. The taller vegetation makes it necessary for the raptor to be more directly over the targeted prey in order to see and attack it.
OKIEGunner
New member
Once again, Enjoyed the education Troy. :10sign:
I must say that from my personal observations a severe drought like we have experienced in the past few years has taken a huge toll on avian predators. Did the drought kill the avian predators, I doubt it. More than likely moved to happier hunting grounds for a while. I look at it as one of the ways mother nature can effect the succession of our eco system, which potentially could support some of my observations.
I must say that from my personal observations a severe drought like we have experienced in the past few years has taken a huge toll on avian predators. Did the drought kill the avian predators, I doubt it. More than likely moved to happier hunting grounds for a while. I look at it as one of the ways mother nature can effect the succession of our eco system, which potentially could support some of my observations.
Dakota Swede
New member
Redtails
Hmmmm ---
I have seen a Redtail Hawk dive and kill a roster pheasant. Pretty amazing.
I'm wondering if their migration route has shifted. It seems as though I see more hawks in the fall than I did in the 70's and 80's.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Hmmmm ---
I have seen a Redtail Hawk dive and kill a roster pheasant. Pretty amazing.
I'm wondering if their migration route has shifted. It seems as though I see more hawks in the fall than I did in the 70's and 80's.
Anyone have any thoughts?
SDJIM
New member
Here is one thing you can do if raptors are using wood fence posts as hunting perches--take the nails ised to hold up gutters(they are a soft metal) pound 3 to 5 nails into the top of the post and then cut off the head with a fencing plyers or heavy side cutter--now they can sit on that post. every little bit helps.
ranchodeluxe
New member
I had an SD GFP biologist tell me that owls are the real offenders when it comes to winged predators. He said they usually only eat the brain, then move on. He said that an owl can kill as many as 5 pheasants a day. No first hand experience in seeing this, I suspect it happens largely at night.
They also say that predator populations are dictated by the amount of prey available. If there are a lot of rabbits, for instance, there will be a lot of coyotes. I had always thought that coyote pops could be controlled through hunting. But they claim you can kill all the coyotes you want, all it does is force the bitches into heat that much sooner, in order to re-populate.
They also say that predator populations are dictated by the amount of prey available. If there are a lot of rabbits, for instance, there will be a lot of coyotes. I had always thought that coyote pops could be controlled through hunting. But they claim you can kill all the coyotes you want, all it does is force the bitches into heat that much sooner, in order to re-populate.
x2 - It's always a pleasure to read his advice.
IME the smaller hawks are worse than the redtailed hawks with regards to predation. Sharp-shinned or Coopers hawks are more adept at chasing winged prey. I have had a couple instances from my treestand where I've see a hawks hot on the trail of pheasants hailing tail trying to get away into taller cover on my property.
The redtails instead focus on ground dwelling prey and IMO are mainly a problem for pheasants during the winter when pheasants are more exposed. I try to place a winter food source near heavy winter cover that provides overhead protection and limits how exposed the pheasants are when traveling between their roosting area and their food source.
onpoint
Active member
I simply disagree with the protection of too many predators, including raptors and I'm pretty sick of hearing the BS about oh, they just eat mice. Funny, everything just eats mice or the ever dispensable Rabbit. The rabbit is a small game animal that I so happen to enjoy hunting and eating. These birds IMO have went way too long unchecked and protected. They hunt 24 hours a day, 365 days a year with no limits. What if I was aloud to do that?
Use the natives American's and their netting of Walleye as a example. People can find plenty wrong with that but nothing wrong with a predator who hunts unchecked 24 hours a day. Everything needs population control, including raptors, wolves, owls, Etc but they are not. Now you know why theirs a lack of game. Oh and wolves only eat mice...tell that to the people in the Rockies who have watched the population of Elk, mule deer, sheep and moose plummet since the introduction of non native arctic wolves.
Take a hour and watch this movie, very eye opening.
http://cryingwolfmovie.com/
Use the natives American's and their netting of Walleye as a example. People can find plenty wrong with that but nothing wrong with a predator who hunts unchecked 24 hours a day. Everything needs population control, including raptors, wolves, owls, Etc but they are not. Now you know why theirs a lack of game. Oh and wolves only eat mice...tell that to the people in the Rockies who have watched the population of Elk, mule deer, sheep and moose plummet since the introduction of non native arctic wolves.
Take a hour and watch this movie, very eye opening.
http://cryingwolfmovie.com/
thanks all for responses to hawks Duppy
We have tried most of the methods suggested already, and I am sure it helped some. I was hoping to find something new, but alas no silver bullet. I have seen the Red Tail kill pheasants, just a few times, but I am in the field a very small % of the time so any observation may be significant. I have had hawks chase(fly after) birds I have flushed and also race my dog to a cripple. The dog always wins. Thanks. Duppy
We have tried most of the methods suggested already, and I am sure it helped some. I was hoping to find something new, but alas no silver bullet. I have seen the Red Tail kill pheasants, just a few times, but I am in the field a very small % of the time so any observation may be significant. I have had hawks chase(fly after) birds I have flushed and also race my dog to a cripple. The dog always wins. Thanks. Duppy
ranchodeluxe
New member
I do have to say that I am seeing hawks perched at almost every one of my pheasant honey holes this year. Far more than I can recall in the past. The guys from Wi I hunted with this week were constantly remarking about this. We don't know what they are killing but they sure ain't hangin' out waiting for the Packers game!
OKIEGunner
New member
OnPoint,
Thanks for sharing that url. It was interesting to say the least. Recommend that UPH member take the time to view this video.
When I first started hunting Pheasants, if you saw a couple of Red Tailed Hawks, it was a point of conversation.
Hawks don't bother roosters....yea ok, go get a call that mimics a hawks scream and watch what a wild bird does when he hears it.
The days of DDT and thing eggs are over, raptors are at a all time high, yes they should be managed as ANY other resource in nature should be managed.
Hawks don't bother roosters....yea ok, go get a call that mimics a hawks scream and watch what a wild bird does when he hears it.
The days of DDT and thing eggs are over, raptors are at a all time high, yes they should be managed as ANY other resource in nature should be managed.
It's all predators, the skunks, bobcats, raccoons, possums, foxes, and yes the owls and hawks. When we do habitat improvement we set the table for a variety of predators, as well as provide the necessary requirements for gamebirds. Our improved cover is usually fragmented and isolated, concentrating human hunters and all others. Do we really believe that human hunters are the only ones who can identify gamebird habitat? 70 years ago sportsmen gathered together shot hawks and owls during migration, electrified perches dotted the southern quail fields. Prior to the International migratory bird treaty. Probably not our finest hour, we sure had a lot of quail though! Now no school boy trappers, even in superior habitat you can walk a long way between coveys. I dabbled in falconry in my youth, and I can sure tell you for a trained falcon, who hunts from circling altitude, pheasants are no problem, nor do they pose much difficulty for wrist launched hawks like red tails, groshawks, rough legged, coopers, sharp-shins etc. Some very small, but still lethal killers. Currently the balance is in their favor,because the majority of wildlife management is not species specific. Casual wildlife veiwers get a thrill seeing a hawk on every post along the road, just as we cringe. It may seem crass but every pheasant ,quail, or rabbit in the belly of a predator, winged or otherwise, is one less to be harvested by we human hunters or live to reproduce the next generation. it's true that with enough high quality habitat we would mitigate the losses to non human hunters. Somebody show me where that is? For now and for the forseeable future, the limited habitat will force and increase the competition for the few cagey survivor birds who hang on.
Prairie Drifter
Well-known member
What a load of bull Oldandnew! Predator and prey populations have fluctuated forever. Now that the "game" birds are in a low, it's hardly time to declare all predators the cause. Ma nature dealt this blow with floods, droughts, hail, etc. Much of it is also man made in our zeal for $ and "feeding the world", we have changed the landscape to favor non-native species and unproductive conditions. If all we did was get unproductive grasslands and woodlands into productive stages, we would have game birds out our ears in a few years. A sideways glance at most of Oklahoma, eastern Kansas, eastern Texas, and most points east show how poor land stewardship deal our upland game populations a destructive blow. These predators have evolved with our native game birds for eons and over time things balance out. Why is it so hard to see that time turns to it's own cycles and we (humans) have a difficult time realizing that what's happening today may well be part of one of those cycles? What goes around comes around. We can accelerate the beneficial side of a cycle by working on the successional stage of the habitats that are out of the productive niche. Blaming predators for problems that are a symptom of our human nature as poor land stewards, our flawed agriculture policy, our Smokey the Bear mentality, our desire to put expensive houses in cedar invaded grassland..........the list is almost endless. Predators play their part in marginal habitats, but in quality habitat the gamebirds aren't significantly benefitted by predator removal. It is imperative that we spend our limited wildlife funds on projects that provide a positive benefit to the species for more than the year of the project. The reason our deer and hog populations are booming at the same time that our upland game populations are in a dive relate to the successional stage that the majority of habitat is in. Take the challenge! Get aerial photos of some parcel where you have seen upland bird populations plummet for 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, 2000, and 2010. Do an anallysis of those photos rating the habitat as excellent, good, fair, and poor and compare the percentages of habitat available. Take the challenge, do the homework!
Oldandnew, You have my vote, I am in your camp.
I started hunting with my father and his friends when I was 11 or 12 years old and that was well over 50 years ago. Based my observational analysis and talking to fellow hunters (nothing scientific) we have more coyotes and bobcats in east Texas than ever before, I get the same reports from eastern Oklahoma and S. E. Kansas.
I frequently see Red Tailed hawks all over our subdivision near the lake and all over year around.
Another indication that raptors are on the raise big time is the number Bald Eagles I have seen in the last three years in S. E. Texas. I saw one last January in a park near my house, at the top of a tall pine tree eating a squirrel. The reason I saw him was because I saw people on the ground pointing cameras toward the top of the tree.
I started hunting with my father and his friends when I was 11 or 12 years old and that was well over 50 years ago. Based my observational analysis and talking to fellow hunters (nothing scientific) we have more coyotes and bobcats in east Texas than ever before, I get the same reports from eastern Oklahoma and S. E. Kansas.
I frequently see Red Tailed hawks all over our subdivision near the lake and all over year around.
Another indication that raptors are on the raise big time is the number Bald Eagles I have seen in the last three years in S. E. Texas. I saw one last January in a park near my house, at the top of a tall pine tree eating a squirrel. The reason I saw him was because I saw people on the ground pointing cameras toward the top of the tree.
That made me LOL and feel depressed at the same time.
PD's point about analyzing arial maps to see habitat loss is definitely the root cause IMO.
I see the predator removal position as well - simply because adding back all the habitat seems less and less possible based on the money-driven, fragmenting lands world we live in. If we can't add back more habitat, removing predators from what does exist can possibly help, though less significantly and more temporarily.
Coyotes are really only a significant problem for deer hunters IMO. Sure a coyote might eat a pheasant here and there, but what about the smaller fur bearers that get eaten by the coyote. I'd give up a few pheasants, to have it kill a number of raccoons, opossums, skunks, etc. A coyote eating 1 pheasant is one less pheasant. A raccoon eating a clutch of eggs is 5+ fewer pheasants (granted there is a possibility the hen will re-nest, but the same may happen again).
This is good information and sorry if I am fixating on a tangent, but:
``had an SD GFP biologist tell me that owls are the real offenders when it comes to winged predators. He said they usually only eat the brain, then move on. He said that an owl can kill as many as 5 pheasants a day. No first hand experience in seeing this, I suspect it happens largely at night.''
BRAINS? Like Zombie Owls? That's scarier than heck.
``had an SD GFP biologist tell me that owls are the real offenders when it comes to winged predators. He said they usually only eat the brain, then move on. He said that an owl can kill as many as 5 pheasants a day. No first hand experience in seeing this, I suspect it happens largely at night.''
BRAINS? Like Zombie Owls? That's scarier than heck.
I said nothing to dispell the holy mantra of habitat improvement, I clearly stated that with unfragmented and high quality habitat, the balances would favor the prey species, with their rapid ability to reproduce, such does not exist in very many areas today, and certainly will exist in fewer in the future. I realize you spend many more days afield with habitat work than I do, and affect very many more acres, are the acres you manage, presumably high quality habitat, over run with quail, pheasants, rabbits? Or because even though high quality, they are isolated, surrounded by lesser habitat,do they support fewer prey species and concentrate predators, Human and wild alike. I believe that species management has to be done on a broad scale, township size, to be effective. When we can accomplish that, or in areas where by accidental alignment of the stars, these places of habitat exist, the birds will hold their own or even with proper weather flourish. No arguement, on habitat, I'm all in, but simple fact, there's not enough money or public willpower currently to reverse the trend. To many see wildlife as a free resource, taken for granted for generations, national mindset is and has been to force the land to give us more than it can afford to give. The writing is on the wall, lose the habitat, lose the gamebirds and prey species, lose the hawks and owls eventually, small furries too, of course we will all have put up our guns and quit by then.
mnmthunting
Banned
Predation is huge problem for establishing game bird populations and keeping existing populations, Including hawks. Hawks do most of their hunting while flying and are most successful at killing game birds while in flight, when you see them perched they have had a successful hunt and are simply resting, digesting. Doesn't matter whether you have a tree, bush, rock post, pole or ground, when a hawk is digesting it will land and rest.
If not for predators, fact is, game birds could do well in marginal habitat.
It's "wildlife management" NOT "game management"
Managers are nowadays at least as happy to have a nesting pair of raptors then a brood of pheasants or quail.
I think it's funny that the "rodent only" phrase is brought up so often.
If not for predators, fact is, game birds could do well in marginal habitat.
It's "wildlife management" NOT "game management"
Managers are nowadays at least as happy to have a nesting pair of raptors then a brood of pheasants or quail.
I think it's funny that the "rodent only" phrase is brought up so often.