Full chokes and #4 shot

[Toad]

:laugh:

Just so we're clear... I do not road hunt. That just happened to be one of my favorite pics of my dog, my real secret weapon! She runs just fine on the ground and I prefer to walk. :laugh:

Birds certainly are "wilder" by the end of the season, but the SHOTS I get later in the season are not appreciably different from the shots I get earlier in the season. They are just less frequent, or requiring more stealthy tactics to get them.

A bird flushing at 100+ yards isn't going to feel any more pellets from a full choke than an IC... So why bother changing your choke tubes. Just shoot the ones in range. That's what I'm saying. I have not been on a pheasant hunt where I wished for a tighter choke.

Finally, I believe I said that the pheasants I shoot rarely go anywhere after they are shot and that if they do I have a secret weapon (my dog) for that. She gets on them quick. She is a maniacal retriever of pheasants. Why is anybody trying to argue this point?

Anybody who has hunted with me and my dog knows that I am using an effective load and choke, and that Daisy recovers my birds swiftly and effectively. Lengthy searches are a rarity, and lost birds are a freak occurrence.

If anybody on this forum thinks what I have just said is BS, then you should sit down and take a good, hard look at your own tactics. Recovering the birds you shoot isn't rocket science. It just takes straight shooting from you (regardless of the choke constriction), and a dog that is hell-bent on retrieving. End of story.:cheers:

 

[oldandnew]

I'd have to dig to find the study, but, read it a while ago, and, recall it was in the context of breaking a stationary clay target at a distance.

Obviously, you could extend the distance to the point at which a pellet would bounce off the clay. Tighten up the choke, and, at the same distance, a single pellet can now break the clay.

Made sense to me. Think of it as...if you were to theoretically shoot loads down an airport runway, and were able to mark how far the pellets went before they stopped rolling. The 4 shot out of the full choke would go farther than a skeet choke (using the extremes). The "ball" of shot string encounters resistance as a whole, and, the tighter the ball, the less resistance.

Now whether that translates into more dead birds, or not, is a different matter
Ballistically it is the size and weight of the pellet which cause it to be lethal longer, so a #4 will be lethal longer because it is throw-weighted with more energy, and thus maintains it over a longer way, than #71/2. An 'F" size will go and kill farther than a #4, might kill a farmer on the next section too. Other side of the equation is there are a hell of a lot more pellets in a 71/2# load as apposed to a #4, which makes a better pattern on most normal range for upland bird hunting. "Normal Range " here it the average distance where you have harvested roosters. Explain it this way, it might take 2-3 pellets to give a killing load with #4, But at 35 yards, 7 1/2# 's have more lethal pellets in the 30" circle, say an estimate of 6-7. All is weight and mass, commulation of pellets regardless of the size, create shock, shock it what we get, like a small baseball bat, thats why birds come back to life and escape, your game bag, you can get a killing pattern with either. I believe the fact we use an ubber-gun with what we believe is a "long range killer", we take inadvisable shots, to far out, leading to cripples, some we may never even recognize or recover. You statement that "you have seen long range shooters make spectacular shots", absolutely true, and is evidence of a mistaken believe that encourages this behavior. Everybody in the blind now believes! I see that in waterfowl all the time, Have marveled in the field, a block and drive hunter will flail away, and seen the result. No pattern, in a US choked gun, ( not the riot guns that my Grandad, and his friends came back from WWI, with 18" barrels, hand guards, and my favorite, the bayonet stub on the barrel.) no commercial choke gets bigger than approximately 30" at 35 yards. A modified barrel will normally have a pattern of that 30" circle from about 10 yards to 45 yards out, with exceptable spread, ( no holes), throughout. imp cyl. will open earlier, but will maintain it's efficieny at 35 yards, but may get a little holey past that range. Bigger pellets will give an advantage in that each pellet will have more energy, i.e. killing power out beyond, so 1 or 2 may do it. If you are shooting steel, which loses velocity quickly bigger pellets over 35 yards are an advantage. As DakotaZeb says, you must account for hyper-sonic speed in the 1400-1650 FPS second, ( remember the british calculations are based on a 1050 fps muzzle velocity which has been proven to provide the best pattern, soft lead, no choke involved), premium shot cups which make everything tighter than indicated barrel wise, granulated buffer, in some shells. Just a little kernel of thought, it is the more open chokes, which provide the best long range power, using BIG pellets, 2, BB, BBB, T, F, in specially loaded shells. As far as ballitically co-effiecency of a ball of shot, I think the jury is out, Unless you have a NASCAR, Ernhardt comm. 870, in which case it may draft pellets and get across the finish line first.

 

[wisturkeyhunter]

Damn you guys over think this stuff.

Avoid the extremes and go forth. Anything from bb-7.5 will work for all but the rarest of shots we take, same for skeet-full. The closest you get to the middle of that the more ideal you'll be.

 

[oldandnew]

Damn you guys over think this stuff.

Avoid the extremes and go forth. Anything from bb-7.5 will work for all but the rarest of shots we take, same for skeet-full. The closest you get to the middle of that the more ideal you'll be.

I long for those days! jeans, a vest, load my dog in the back seat, with a pump gun, ammo bought from Revco drug store, usually 3-1-#6. Birds were just as dead, they tasted great. FPS, lethal range, be darned.

 

[carptom1]

I long for those days! jeans, a vest, load my dog in the back seat, with a pump gun, ammo bought from Revco drug store, usually 3-1-#6. Birds were just as dead, they tasted great. FPS, lethal range, be darned.

Revco? Wow your old. At least you didn't say Katz

 

[oldandnew]

Revco? Wow your old. At least you didn't say Katz

Actually it was Parkview, back in the day, but became Revco. I did get a supply of shells in the middle of the night, from Katz, clear down on Main street of KCMO. ( The clock on the building at Westport Rd. ), They were on a dusty shelf. That Katz was open all night, before the days of Walmart. If you need shotgun shells or a an enema it was the place. I became 59 on april 6, but I try not to think about it!

 

[mustistuff]

shot size

in some of the post, energy was mostly related to shot size, could be but then maybe not. energy comes from a combination of mass and velocity. sure a number 5 shot at a std. 1200 fps has more energy that say a 7.5. but when you speed up the 7.5's like i do to about 1600 fps, i then get about the same energy that the 5's give. if you are shooting a 12 ga. doesn't amount to much, but when you are shooting say a 28 ga. it becomes a big deal. it is assumed that it takes 3 foot pounds of energy to bring down a bird, the energy delivered from a pellet is cumulative so the better the pattern, the better the chance of delivering that 3 ft. lbs. true, down the runway, the five's will go further than 7.5's but that becomes really only a big deal past 50 yds. mostly beyond pheasant hunting requirement. a 5 shot has at 1200 fps, 3.13 ft. lbs. at 40 yds. a 7.5 equals 1.26. speed of the 5 at 40 yd. = 740 fps vs. the 7.5 =675. if you are shooting 1 1/4 oz. of 5's =213 pellets vs. 7.5's =437 and by the way, the drop at 40 yds is 3.3" vs 3.7, not much. the std, given for british speed of 1050 ft./ sec. applies to a black powder standard and no longer applies to our modern powders and that is about all i can get out of my trusty 14 ga. anyway shoot what ya want, just go and shoot, get your dog off the couch and maybe train it to be a strike dog and have at it. headed out for turkey in the morning so will give you guy's a break for a few days.

cheers

 

[birdshooter]

in some of the post, energy was mostly related to shot size, could be but then maybe not. energy comes from a combination of mass and velocity. sure a number 5 shot at a std. 1200 fps has more energy that say a 7.5. but when you speed up the 7.5's like i do to about 1600 fps, i then get about the same energy that the 5's give.

That all seems nice and neat, however I know of no factory loads that comes standard with #5 at 1200fps nor a 7½ @ 1600 fps. Typically we see the standard #5 in a 1330 fps 1¼ oz. pheasant load and in many cases faster than that, which IMO is needless. If your rolling your own that's fine, however, most guys are probably not rolling their own for Pheasant hunting unless they're burning thru one heck of a lot of ammo or they simply have nothing better to do with their time...

In a 12 bore #5 shot is and will continue to be the best of both worlds when it comes to pellet energy vs pattern density for Phez. If using a small bore you simply tighten your choke. In a best case scenario if all pheasant hunting consisted of shots under 30 yards you could make a case for #7½ or #6, but in the real world that is hardly the case and you plan accordingly.

my .02

 

[mustistuff]

speed

That all seems nice and neat, however I know of no factory loads that comes standard with #5 at 1200fps nor a 7½ @ 1600 fps. Typically we see the standard #5 in a 1330 fps 1¼ oz. pheasant load and in many cases faster than that, which IMO is needless. If your rolling your own that's fine, however, most guys are probably not rolling their own for Pheasant hunting unless they're burning thru one heck of a lot of ammo or they simply have nothing better to do with their time...

In a 12 bore #5 shot is and will continue to be the best of both worlds when it comes to pellet energy vs pattern density for Phez. If using a small bore you simply tighten your choke. In a best case scenario if all pheasant hunting consisted of shots under 30 yards you could make a case for #7½ or #6, but in the real world that is hardly the case and you plan accordingly.

my .02

up until very very recently, the std. speed of a shot shell was 1200 fps or slightly less, international rules of skeet and trap, therefore hunting speeds were also the same, recently that has changed and was brought on by the need of speed in shooting steel. hunting at least, in kansas, five's don't seem to be a very good choice as the chance of seeing quail are moderately good, five's kinda leaves you over a barrel, further more, and there are a ton of studies out there that say very few pheasants are actually killed much past 30 yds. do with what may but few hunters actually shoot 5's any time of the year due to poor density

cheers

 

[Michigan Gunner]

Back in The Day

Back when the ammo you bought was in paper shells without a plastic wad, the combo of Full Choke and No. 4 shot worked. Today, with modern ammo, you don't normally need more than 6 shot and a Imp. Cyl. choke. If you shoot Prairie Storm, you don't need any choke at all, it's that tight. That said, there are times when I like No. 5's.

Lock and Load!

 

[oldandnew]

up until very very recently, the std. speed of a shot shell was 1200 fps or slightly less, international rules of skeet and trap, therefore hunting speeds were also the same, recently that has changed and was brought on by the need of speed in shooting steel. hunting at least, in kansas, five's don't seem to be a very good choice as the chance of seeing quail are moderately good, five's kinda leaves you over a barrel, further more, and there are a ton of studies out there that say very few pheasants are actually killed much past 30 yds. do with what may but few hunters actually shoot 5's any time of the year due to poor density

cheers

The advent of shells, because of barrel pressure increased to 1200-1300 FPS second, as apposed to muzzleloaders. The steel even hyper-sonic are still balisticly inferior to 1200 FPS lead loads. Steel is much harder and low throw weight. My previous post was focused on pattern. Pattern, is crucial to consistent wingshooting. By using the energy value with the pattern, practice will make a much better wingshooter. Pattern in a muzzleloader is best at around 1050 FPS, catridges and smokeless powder increased to around 1200-1300' FPS per second. I get that in a damascus guns handloaded in both smokeless and black, in cartridges. If I increase the velocity, much, it affects the pattern, as in, blown patterns, eractic flyers, inconsistent pattern density. I keep my loads at under 7000- 9000 foot pounds of barrel pressure, so I do not have to remove shards of the barrel from my face or forearms. I have used a 12 ga muzzle loader or 12 ga. cartridge guns with "nice shot" that will mimick lead loads of the 1960's. At a cost. the hyper-powdered loads, the powders themselves, are not adviseable to handload without some serious thought, and are not recommended for certain loads at all, needing special components. 1650 FPS might make your barrel pressure around 40,000+ PSI. it will sure blow patterns, in standard chokes, might damage guns, give you a headache, and your ears will be, well, like mine! I guess what I am saying, is you don't need it. We get better FPS, and crunching power, using a 10 ga., 3 1/2" with a thirty inch barrel, using #2's or a .375 H&H Magnum wth 300 grain jacketed bullets, to shoot antelope, believe or not it will be flat shooting enough to do it, very few cripples! But Why?

 

[jmac]

up until very very recently, the std. speed of a shot shell was 1200 fps or slightly less, international rules of skeet and trap, therefore hunting speeds were also the same, recently that has changed and was brought on by the need of speed in shooting steel. hunting at least, in kansas, five's don't seem to be a very good choice as the chance of seeing quail are moderately good, five's kinda leaves you over a barrel, further more, and there are a ton of studies out there that say very few pheasants are actually killed much past 30 yds. do with what may but few hunters actually shoot 5's any time of the year due to poor density

cheers

Sorry LOL You miss the point. It's not about speed. it's about the Shot string. Lead vs steel vs other non- tox it's a waste of time to argue about. You want to mix your own brew good for you. This thread is about what the OP started and that is #4 shot and FULL CHOKE. So get on board or step off.

 

[wisturkeyhunter]

7.5 at 1,600 hit like 5's at 1,200?

Damn just damn.

 

[quail hound]

Sorry LOL You miss the point. It's not about speed. it's about the Shot string. Lead vs steel vs other non- tox it's a waste of time to argue about. You want to mix your own brew good for you. This thread is about what the OP started and that is #4 shot and FULL CHOKE. So get on board or step off.

Yep, short shot string. A 28ga, ic throwing 3/4oz of 7.5s at 1200fps will kill a wild rooster just fine.:cheers: I do shoot grandpas full choked wingmaster every now and then too though, hell even took my first quail with it.:thumbsup:

 

[reddog]

I haven't shot a full choke since I quit hunting geese, and that was before steel was mandated. I could count on two hands the number of boxes of 4s I've shot in my lifetime (55) now, 5s are a different thing.

 

[calamari]

I've shot a fair number of pheasants with my 1100 and fixed full choke and 1 7/8 oz. of #4s and #6s. My friends have too. I use a 20ga. O/U now with 1 1/4 oz. of 4s, 6s, or 7s. Saying that pheasants are mostly shot at 30 yds. may be true at times and places but not on the wildlife areas of Calif. and every place else I've hunted them.
Saying that shot pheasants don't run brings into question the experience of the person claiming that. Wild pheasants are as tough as the toughest birds that fly as far as surviving being shot and trying to get away.
Bottom line, use what you have confidence in, get to where the bird went down as fast you can and find more important things to argue about. How about, "Why is there air?"

 

[jmac]

i've shot a fair number of pheasants with my 1100 and fixed full choke and 1 7/8 oz. Of #4s and #6s. My friends have too. I use a 20ga. O/u now with 1 1/4 oz. Of 4s, 6s, or 7s. Saying that pheasants are mostly shot at 30 yds. May be true at times and places but not on the wildlife areas of calif. And every place else i've hunted them.
Saying that shot pheasants don't run brings into question the experience of the person claiming that. Wild pheasants are as tough as the toughest birds that fly as far as surviving being shot and trying to get away.
Bottom line, use what you have confidence in, get to where the bird went down as fast you can and find more important things to argue about. How about, "why is there air?"

spot on.

 

[onpoint]

spot on.

Amen, if your shooting wild South Dakota late season roosters with a 28ga and 3/4oz of shot. I would have to say..you never been to South Dakota or anywhere where real wild birds live. Maybe if confined to small slews surrounded by woods that may help keep birds from running far and wide and jumping into 20-30 mph prairie winds at near outer limits of shotgunning. I have shot Pheasants with a 410 while squirrel hunting. You can jump a bird or two on occasion in grassy slew areas around Oak woods that is near crop lands. They usually jump close as you nearly step on them. I remember dropping one when I was 10-12 years old. My dad let me ahead of him as we had to exit a area of Oak and cross a grassy area to get to the next Oak woods while hunting squirrels. I nearly stepped on a nice big cock rooster. I instinctively pulled the savage 410/22 O/U to my shoulder, cocking the hammer on the way up and fired at the rising rooster. He crumpled. My dad nearly knocked me down getting around me and getting to where the bird dropped. I seen him pick the big rooster up with a huge smile on his face. I think he was more happy then I was. We found a place to sit down and watch for squirrels and dad picked the bird. I remember admiring the bright orange skin and said, that bird is going to taste so good. My dad is going to be 82 soon and he can't get around but in the house from his chair to the bed. His days on this earth are growing short. I'm going to miss him so much. He still has his 20ga leaning close to his chair, a pistol or two by his side. He watches out the window for Red Squirrels stealing from his bird feeder, maybe a crow or some other vermin. That's his final hunting spot.

Gather all the memories like this you can and what gauge your shooting, shot size or choke won't mean a hill of beans in the end.

Carry on Men. :cheers:

 

[birdshooter]

up until very very recently, the std. speed of a shot shell was 1200 fps or slightly less, international rules of skeet and trap, therefore hunting speeds were also the same, recently that has changed and was brought on by the need of speed in shooting steel. hunting at least, in kansas, five's don't seem to be a very good choice as the chance of seeing quail are moderately good, five's kinda leaves you over a barrel, further more, and there are a ton of studies out there that say very few pheasants are actually killed much past 30 yds. do with what may but few hunters actually shoot 5's any time of the year due to poor density

cheers

How recent is very, very recent. I remember hunting with dad and grandad when I was a kid in the 60's and they used #5 and #6 in a 1¼ oz load. It's been a common load size for phez for decades.

We'll I can darn near guarantee you those studies weren't done in the Dakota's if that's what they stated, especially after the opener on birds that have been pressured.

We don't have quail up here in these neck of the woods and if we did I would opt for #6 if the chance of running into both would be probable.

I bet if you took a poll you would find #5 shot to be quite popular for hunters that are after predominately Phez.

 

[Toad]

Gather all the memories like this you can and what gauge your shooting, shot size or choke won't mean a hill of beans in the end.

Carry on Men. :cheers:

I enjoyed your story about hunting memories with your dad, and I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment!

But the OP asked for opinions whether full choke and #4 was necessary, and he got some opinions... :laugh: