Full chokes and #4 shot

[mustistuff]

tame birds

the land i hunt on in n. w. kansas is a little different than what most of you i guess hunt, i have trained the ranchers and farmers in the area to be nice to the pheasants so that they are more friendly and easier to get close to. and as the season wears on, the birds get tired and become even easier.. basically all pellets go the same speed, go the same place, the birds don't really care what they get shot with, go with smaller pellet and multiple hits rather than a lucky pellet, as it takes about 3 foot pounds of energy to bring down a bird, the odds are greater with more shot than with less. as far as wind, a heavy wind will blow a shot about 7 inches, not a lot out of a 36 in pattern. go ahead, carry an 8 pound gun, have fun.

cheers

 

[mustistuff]

slow season

woke people up tonight anyway, even that guy in calif.

cheers

 

[Toad]

i think it is really dumb, for one, pheasants are not that hard to kill and with a full choke you won't hit many of them period. that combination is for fifty yard shooting and all the studies show that at most only a couple of percent of hunters can it anything at that range, these same studies also show that the average pheasant is dead on the ground at 30 yds. sometime when you are out in the field pace off 50 yards and see what it looks like. i have killed several thousand pheasant in my life and i hunt the entire season and find very little difference in the distance i kill birds at whether it is the beginning of the season or the last day. mostly it is a myth. birds flush wild cause you spook them not cause it is later in the year. my own studies indicate that nearly 80% of my birds are taken with imp. cly. the balance with a mod. and nearly all of them have been taken with 7.5 shot in a 20 ga. or 28 ga. my choice but you don't need a canon to hunt with or buck shot either for that matter

cheers

100% of my birds are taken with Imp Cyl.

Sometimes late season birds are closer shots, because they often sit tighter in the snow than they do on opening weekend when it is 70 degrees. And they are almost always in heavier cover late in the season, where it is tougher to run. Anyway, I don't see any reason to fiddle with choke tubes throughout the season. Just pick the one that suits the speediness of your gun mount, and stick with it all year.

No way I would shoot 7.5 for pheasant, but we've had that conversation before... I have no doubt that it knocks down birds, but I have cleaned birds that my uncle shot with 7.5s, and it is a royal pain in the azz if they are hit in the meat. #5 kills them fine, and fewer, bigger, pellets are easier to find and pick out of the meat when it's time to cook. The birds rarely go anywhere after they are shot, and if they do I have a secret weapon for that!

:cheers:

 

[1pheas4]

The birds rarely go anywhere after they are shot, and if they do I have a secret weapon for that!:

Young birds, inexperienced birds, pen raised birds

Anyway, I've found this can be the case with young and inexperienced birds. Even then, if still alive, they'll often dig down under cover where they've dropped. It's nearly impossible to find them unless a good dog is able to slow down and pin-point exactly where they are.

Older and/or experienced wild birds that are not dead (DEAD!) hit the ground running. If alive, they are not sticking around unless dazed/confused, or both legs and wings are busted up. Even then, I've witnessed wild birds attempting to get away.

I can't tell you how many wild birds I've seen busted up hard, hit the ground, then disappear. Later a dog finds them two blocks from where they were hit.

Just this past season I shot a wild rooster that was dead as could be. 20 min. later he was jumping out of my game pouch. I grabbed his leg and pressed him up against my back as he was going crazy--flapping his wings and spurring my arms with his free leg. By the time my dad came over to grab the bird he had me bleeding pretty good

As far as late season birds holding tight, yes some do, but most experienced wild bird will not sit there waiting for you and your dog to come and get them. They're too smart and experienced by that time of the season unless the conditions call for it (weather, very dense cover, drive, etc).

A well thought out drive can increase chances of getting experienced birds to hold. Other than that, most will not hold like early season birds. By late season, they know what's going on.

 

[1pheas4]

woke people up tonight anyway, even that guy in calif.

cheers

LOL....about time. Moe's been taking a back seat lately. No one around to "stir the pot" as he'd say.:cheers:

 

[Dakotazeb]

Down in Kansas the full choke with #4 shot is what the old timers were brought up on and that is what they pass on to the younger folks. Every now and then you will find a bird with a few # 2s in it at cleaning time.

Same story when I was growing up in western Minnesota in the 50's and 60's. I doubt there were very many shotguns that were not choked "Full". Guys owned one gun and used it for everything, pheasants, ducks, geese, ...... But you also have to look at the shells we were shooting back then. Paper hulls with no shot cup and probably fairly soft lead. Those shells probably patterned more like a "Mod" choke when shot through a "Full". With today's shells we get much tighter patterns through more open chokes. Another thing, I don't know of anyone back then that had a 3" 12 ga. gun. It was all 2 3/4". We weren't very particular about the shells we shot. Heck if we have some 4's or 6's we were good to go for ducks and pheasants. Probably had one box of deuces for the occasional goose.

 

[Toad]

Young birds, inexperienced birds, pen raised birds

Anyway, I've found this can be the case with young and inexperienced birds. Even then, if still alive, they'll often dig down under cover where they've dropped. It's nearly impossible to find them unless a good dog is able to slow down and pin-point exactly where they are.

Older and/or experienced wild birds that are not dead (DEAD!) hit the ground running. If alive, they are not sticking around unless dazed/confused, or both legs and wings are busted up. Even then, I've witnessed wild birds attempting to get away.

I can't tell you how many wild birds I've seen busted up hard, hit the ground, then disappear. Later a dog finds them two blocks from where they were hit.

Just this past season I shot a wild rooster that was dead as could be. 20 min. later he was jumping out of my game pouch. I grabbed his leg and pressed him up against my back as he was going crazy--flapping his wings and spurring my arms with his free leg. By the time my dad came over to grab the bird he had me bleeding pretty good

As far as late season birds holding tight, yes some do, but most experienced wild bird will not sit there waiting for you and your dog to come and get them. They're too smart and experienced by that time of the season unless the conditions call for it (weather, very dense cover, drive, etc).

A well thought out drive can increase chances of getting experienced birds to hold. Other than that, most will not hold like early season birds. By late season, they know what's going on.

Meh... My way works for me... Most of my birds are from public land. The rest private. All very wild.

Style of dog surely makes a difference in the distance of the shot. And having a maniacal retriever of shot birds makes all the difference in recovery. And of course a committment to doing a thorough search when necessary.

But if you have a high of a percentage of crippled birds, maybe it's time to consider that other people's ideas might have an ounce and a quarter of validity before you dismiss them completely.
:cheers:

 

[mustistuff]

road hunting

100% of my birds are taken with Imp Cyl.

Sometimes late season birds are closer shots, because they often sit tighter in the snow than they do on opening weekend when it is 70 degrees. And they are almost always in heavier cover late in the season, where it is tougher to run. Anyway, I don't see any reason to fiddle with choke tubes throughout the season. Just pick the one that suits the speediness of your gun mount, and stick with it all year.

No way I would shoot 7.5 for pheasant, but we've had that conversation before... I have no doubt that it knocks down birds, but I have cleaned birds that my uncle shot with 7.5s, and it is a royal pain in the azz if they are hit in the meat. #5 kills them fine, and fewer, bigger, pellets are easier to find and pick out of the meat when it's time to cook. The birds rarely go anywhere after they are shot, and if they do I have a secret weapon for that!

:cheers:

actually never have seen a strike dog used for pheasant hunting, i have used them on lions and bear but never on pheasants, wonderful idea you have, would never have thought of it. dog must have a really good noise to find pheasants riding down the road

cheers

 

[carptom1]

actually never have seen a strike dog used for pheasant hunting, i have used them on lions and bear but never on pheasants, wonderful idea you have, would never have thought of it. dog must have a really good noise to find pheasants riding down the road

cheers

That's how toad roadhunts. Dog whimpers when it's time to stop the truck.

 

[carptom1]

Meh... My way works for me... Most of my birds are from public land. The rest private. All very wild.

Style of dog surely makes a difference in the distance of the shot. And having a maniacal retriever of shot birds makes all the difference in recovery. And of course a committment to doing a thorough search when necessary.

But if you have a high of a percentage of crippled birds, maybe it's time to consider that other people's ideas might have an ounce and a quarter of validity before you dismiss them completely.
:cheers:

I'm with you Toad. I shoot an Improved 5's in october, 4's in december. I shot plenty of birds at 25yards in December last year. At least I think I did.

 

[1pheas4]

Style of dog surely makes a difference in the distance of the shot. And having a maniacal retriever of shot birds makes all the difference in recovery. And of course a committment to doing a thorough search when necessary.

Why? If (as you say) crippled wild pheasants just sit there waiting for you to pick them up

But if you have a high of a percentage of crippled birds, maybe it's time to consider that other people's ideas might have an ounce and a quarter of validity before you dismiss them completely.
:cheers:

I don't have a high percentage of crippled birds, but I can tell you in regards to wild birds that are crippled, I have a high percentage that run/hide and don't stay in place.

"People's ideas might have an ounce and a quarter of validity"-- Of course they do. But when I'm told there's no difference between early season birds and late season birds w/hunting pressure/experience what am I supposed to think? Yes of course there's birds that will hold for you and your dog in the late season, even in heavily pushed areas, but the percentage of birds running and flushing out of range or just within range increase as hunting pressure increases.

As I mentioned, heavy cover, weather, and a well executed drive can increase chances of a late season bird to hold. Nevertheless, they are a different bird by seasons end compared to early season.:cheers:

 

[carptom1]

I think the area hunted has much to do with the way a pheasant acts. I have spent many years hunting birds in many states. There are more close sitting birds in oct/nov than in dec/jan. I don't think that is debateable. That being said I don't really find the shots to be any longer. I don't shoot at a bird at 50+ yards in oct when it flushes wild, I don't do it in dec either. It makes a big difference in how they bunch. In sd a big flush might be 50-2000 birds. You don't see much of that in Kansas. Guys get big eyes when they see 20 cocks in one field. When the groups get large, they get wild, no doubt. But they may never get in a big bunch in kansas. I hunted a couple areas in SD last year in dec where every bird for 3 sq miles were in two bunches. When others run to catch them, I slow down and shoot the one thats hiding at 25 yards with my 26 inch imp/cyl with #4's. Unless he quarters to my left, in which case I miss him with as many shells I can squeeze off

 

[jmac]

Why? If (as you say) crippled wild pheasants just sit there waiting for you to pick them up



I don't have a high percentage of crippled birds, but I can tell you in regards to wild birds that are crippled, I have a high percentage that run/hide and don't stay in place.

"People's ideas might have an ounce and a quarter of validity"-- Of course they do. But when I'm told there's no difference between early season birds and late season birds w/hunting pressure/experience what am I supposed to think? Yes of course there's birds that will hold for you and your dog in the late season, even in heavily pushed areas, but the percentage of birds running and flushing out of range or just within range increase as hunting pressure increases.

As I mentioned, heavy cover, weather, and a well executed drive can increase chances of a late season bird to hold. Nevertheless, they are a different bird by seasons end compared to early season.:cheers:

This is the case in imho. I've shot birds that have gone down hard, never to find them with the dogs. Ive had birds go down that are running never to be found, by the dogs. They run and they use culvert, badge holes, or what ever to escape. That's pheasant hunting. The later in the season the more this is the case. I dare any of you to say you have not had this happen to you. :cheers::cheers:

 

[onpoint]

This is the case in imho. I've shot birds that have gone down hard, never to find them with the dogs. Ive had birds go down that are running never to be found, by the dogs. They run and they use culvert, badge holes, or what ever to escape. That's pheasant hunting. The later in the season the more this is the case. I dare any of you to say you have not had this happen to you. :cheers::cheers:

Couldn't agree more:thumbsup:

 

[siouxcitysmitty]

Count me among those who believe Pheasants definitely get more jumpy as the season wears on.

Regarding the debate on tight chokes and long shots, it's more than just the pattern that comes into play. The tighter the pattern, the more speed (the pellets "draft" each other), and, consequently, stopping power is delivered at long range.

So, a 4 shot pellet that hits a vital spot coming out of a full choke, has more stopping power than a 4 pellet coming out of a IC choke.

 

[oldandnew]

Count me among those who believe Pheasants definitely get more jumpy as the season wears on.

Regarding the debate on tight chokes and long shots, it's more than just the pattern that comes into play. The tighter the pattern, the more speed (the pellets "draft" each other), and, consequently, stopping power is delivered at long range.

So, a 4 shot pellet that hits a vital spot coming out of a full choke, has more stopping power than a 4 pellet coming out of a IC choke.

What? I guess I need to do more reading, since "drafting" shotgun pellets is foreign to me. Math was not my subject, but I seems to me that individual pellets in a somewhat enlongated mass, would have co-efficient of their own size based mostly on powder charge. This would be especially true of shotgun ranges which are inconsequential ballistically anyway. I will go research in search of knowledge, but I doubt an edge from drag co-efficeint will save the bacon at 35 yards.

 

[Dakotazeb]

What? I guess I need to do more reading, since "drafting" shotgun pellets is foreign to me. Math was not my subject, but I seems to me that individual pellets in a somewhat enlongated mass, would have co-efficient of their own size based mostly on powder charge. This would be especially true of shotgun ranges which are inconsequential ballistically anyway. I will go research in search of knowledge, but I doubt an edge from drag co-efficeint will save the bacon at 35 yards.

I would have to agree. Never have I ever heard of the "drafting theory" in regards to shotgun pellets. And even if there is some drafting going on I can't believe the difference in velocity of a #4 pellet coming out of a Full choke versus an IC choke is significant enough to really matter.

 

[siouxcitysmitty]

I'd have to dig to find the study, but, read it a while ago, and, recall it was in the context of breaking a stationary clay target at a distance.

Obviously, you could extend the distance to the point at which a pellet would bounce off the clay. Tighten up the choke, and, at the same distance, a single pellet can now break the clay.

Made sense to me. Think of it as...if you were to theoretically shoot loads down an airport runway, and were able to mark how far the pellets went before they stopped rolling. The 4 shot out of the full choke would go farther than a skeet choke (using the extremes). The "ball" of shot string encounters resistance as a whole, and, the tighter the ball, the less resistance.

Now whether that translates into more dead birds, or not, is a different matter

However, I've seen birds drop at inexplicable distances (moreso with waterfowl), and it's usually the guy in the blind with the tightest choke. So, I'm a believer.

 

[carptom1]

I'd have to dig to find the study, but, read it a while ago, and, recall it was in the context of breaking a stationary clay target at a distance.

Obviously, you could extend the distance to the point at which a pellet would bounce off the clay. Tighten up the choke, and, at the same distance, a single pellet can now break the clay.

Made sense to me. Think of it as...if you were to theoretically shoot loads down an airport runway, and were able to mark how far the pellets went before they stopped rolling. The 4 shot out of the full choke would go farther than a skeet choke (using the extremes). The "ball" of shot string encounters resistance as a whole, and, the tighter the ball, the less resistance.

Now whether that translates into more dead birds, or not, is a different matter

However, I've seen birds drop at inexplicable distances (moreso with waterfowl), and it's usually the guy in the blind with the tightest choke. So, I'm a believer.

Strangely that makes sense to me.

 

[siouxcitysmitty]

Also, another belief of mine on the topic of early season versus late season birds, chokes, long shots, cripples, etc....

Along with being generally more skittish, late season birds are simply tougher. They're significantly older (in their short lives since hatch), more plumage, tougher hides, stronger muscles, etc

The same shot on the "margins" that brings down a bird in October, just ruffles feathers in January.

And that, along with skittishness, is what leads many (although clearly from this thread, not all) to go with tighter chokes and bigger shot in late season.