Food vs. Fuel, the rocky road ahead

O

oldandnew

Active member
Little article I picked up and thought I'd share. Why your local corn grower should give you a big hug for your support. Also why you will find less pheasants and quail. See link below. This link will get you Choices Magazine, but not the article. Brief synopsis of the article, is that the bio fuels initiative EISA, has been a dismal failure, except in the case of subsidizing higher corn prices and raising the value of farmland. Barring a reversal of policy, this is unlikely to change, as pressures for more food and more fuel will outstrip the capacity to produce it. Good read.
 
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Got it , good read. Build the dam pipeline. What happens when the next dust bowl happens??????? No fuel and no crops???? No food and then what????
 
Buying the farm vote comes at a price, both to our pocketbooks and to the wildlife that we love to hunt.
 
Could it be that a monster was created, a little like the Ogallala aquifer monster?
 
Very interesting read O&N. This is a good example of someone writing with a very objective unemotional commitment to the topic.

I look at food for fuel in a simpler form. Corn and soybeans are not ALL food we eat and are certainly not some of the healthiest food sources for us????

Things grown from the ground, if done in a sustainable fashion, are for the most part completely renewable as would be wind power. Fossil fuels like oil and natural gas are not.

At the end of day....clean air, clean water, and abundant wildlife all and to complete for resources and need a value put on them and IMO that is the only way they will compete in the future. In other words, like the article mentioned, that is reality and things always come back to reality.
 
UGUIDE said:
Very interesting read O&N. This is a good example of someone writing with a very objective unemotional commitment to the topic.

I look at food for fuel in a simpler form. Corn and soybeans are not ALL food we eat and are certainly not some of the healthiest food sources for us????

Things grown from the ground, if done in a sustainable fashion, are for the most part completely renewable as would be wind power. Fossil fuels like oil and natural gas are not.

At the end of day....clean air, clean water, and abundant wildlife all and to complete for resources and need a value put on them and IMO that is the only way they will compete in the future. In other words, like the article mentioned, that is reality and things always come back to reality.
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Chris,

Very interesting take on what you think this article is about. Apparently you think that wind energy and green energy is the answer to the problem. How much of this green energy do you put into your tractor to take care of you peoples property that you sell to pheasant hunt, you know the people that you charge to hunt on your properties??????????? Do you have any wind farms around where you live??? This is not an attack on you, Chris; however, I am from Casper, Wyoming, and we are inundated with wind farms and there is no way to get the power (however pathetic it is) into any power grid. The problem with wind power and other renewable sources of green energy is it does not work. North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and other states sit on huge vast oil based companies that is readily available if we build the pipeline. Have you ever seen the wind turbines blow up? Hell, wind energy started in Wyoming and on top of that, it ended there. The wind speed is too fast for the turbines to actually function and so when that happens they actually blow up. The only place that they are functional that I know of in the world would be the leeward side of Hawaii with an average wind speed of 3 to 5 mph and that produces NOTHING. So sorry, you need to get off the green thing and growing foods to provide ethanol does not work either. Reread the article that Onn posted and perhaps you can see the difference. Like I said, Chris, this is not an attack on you... this is a fact!
 
jmac said:
Chris,

Very interesting take on what you think this article is about. Apparently you think that wind energy and green energy is the answer to the problem. How much of this green energy do you put into your tractor to take care of you peoples property that you sell to pheasant hunt, you know the people that you charge to hunt on your properties??????????? Do you have any wind farms around where you live??? This is not an attack on you, Chris; however, I am from Casper, Wyoming, and we are inundated with wind farms and there is no way to get the power (however pathetic it is) into any power grid. The problem with wind power and other renewable sources of green energy is it does not work. North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and other states sit on huge vast oil based companies that is readily available if we build the pipeline. Have you ever seen the wind turbines blow up? Hell, wind energy started in Wyoming and on top of that, it ended there. The wind speed is too fast for the turbines to actually function and so when that happens they actually blow up. The only place that they are functional that I know of in the world would be the leeward side of Hawaii with an average wind speed of 3 to 5 mph and that produces NOTHING. So sorry, you need to get off the green thing and growing foods to provide ethanol does not work either. Reread the article that Onn posted and perhaps you can see the difference. Like I said, Chris, this is not an attack on you... this is a fact!
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IMO, using food products to make fuel is among the worst ideas ever. Wind power? I don't understand the thought that there's no way to get the power into the grid.
 
onpoint said:
IMO, using food products to make fuel is among the worst ideas ever. Wind power? I don't understand the thought that there's no way to get the power into the grid.
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Yes that is the problem. Well put onpoint.:10sign::cheers:
 
I know that their is a Ethanol plant that is going to be built in South Sioux City. The plant will be a cellulose plant.

In reference to the article, it is dated 2008. At that time I am sure the facts were accurate, but the technology has changed. It will continue to change.

Now the plant being built will be using "waste" corn products. Not my opinion of a solution, my only point being that the technology is evolving.
Extracting ethanol from corn is very old technology, but it is easy and proven. Hence the reason why it was so strongly pursued.
I still feel corn/grain ethanol will be replaced with other raw materials that will be cheaper or more efficient to use. I base this view on the changes that have taken place in the ethanol industry over the last ten year.

Wind power. I have no first hand knowledge of wind power from the state of Wyoming.
I love that state and the wind always seems to be blowing. Never have seen a wind turbine blow up, but I am sure it is a very dangerous thing to witness.
What I have seen, is wind power being generated across the state of Iowa. Roughly North to South and a little West of the center of Iowa. Last I knew the line of wind generators did not bisect the state, but their is miles and miles of them and they are continuing to be built.
The reason they are being built is because it is economically feasible to build them and sell the power off to the grid. In Iowa I know they have been doing this for over ten years now.
As the market dictates, more avenues of power will be brought "online"

I still stand by the idea that no one primary source of power should be used. Anytime we as a county become dependent upon one primary source of energy. We will be susceptible to price volatility.
 
Live2Hunt said:
I know that their is a Ethanol plant that is going to be built in South Sioux City. The plant will be a cellulose plant.

In reference to the article, it is dated 2008. At that time I am sure the facts were accurate, but the technology has changed. It will continue to change.

Now the plant being built will be using "waste" corn products. Not my opinion of a solution, my only point being that the technology is evolving.
Extracting ethanol from corn is very old technology, but it is easy and proven. Hence the reason why it was so strongly pursued.
I still feel corn/grain ethanol will be replaced with other raw materials that will be cheaper or more efficient to use. I base this view on the changes that have taken place in the ethanol industry over the last ten year.

Wind power. I have no first hand knowledge of wind power from the state of Wyoming.
I love that state and the wind always seems to be blowing. Never have seen a wind turbine blow up, but I am sure it is a very dangerous thing to witness.
What I have seen, is wind power being generated across the state of Iowa. Roughly North to South and a little West of the center of Iowa. Last I knew the line of wind generators did not bisect the state, but their is miles and miles of them and they are continuing to be built.
The reason they are being built is because it is economically feasible to build them and sell the power off to the grid. In Iowa I know they have been doing this for over ten years now.
As the market dictates, more avenues of power will be brought "online"

I still stand by the idea that no one primary source of power should be used. Anytime we as a county become dependent upon one primary source of energy. We will be susceptible to price volatility.
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Might also be interested to read Thomas Malthus, " essay on The principle of population", circa 1789. If you think 2008 is out of date, Malthus predicted this exact result in 1789! Point being, of the current article, that the cost of producing most carbon based energy, costs more in energy, than it creates. The exception being coal, oil, natural gas, the traditional fossil fuels. So we trade a nickle for 5 pennies, at best, but usually, like with ethanol, we trade a nickle for 3 pennies. Of course those 3 pennies flow out of your pocket into the pockets of the politically correct charlitons who hatched this corn/oil scheme in the first place. The principle is the same, in 1789 or 2009. With corn stover, the issue will be harvest cost, conversion cost, cost of lost fertilizer and tilth value, water depletion,and our continuing struggle with ethanol waste and pollution. We have also once again are using a traditional livestock feed for fuel, exaserbating the cost of food issue, as well. Remember in your theory that Henry Ford used gasoline engines in his cars, because gas was a CHEAP, throw away, by product of oil refining. The problem is we need to wean ourselves of 1900's technology and it's pig with lipstick, ethanol, the same thing with a different name, and all it's variations, not 2008 articles.
 
jmac said:
Chris,

Very interesting take on what you think this article is about. Apparently you think that wind energy and green energy is the answer to the problem. How much of this green energy do you put into your tractor to take care of you peoples property that you sell to pheasant hunt, you know the people that you charge to hunt on your properties??????????? Do you have any wind farms around where you live??? This is not an attack on you, Chris; however, I am from Casper, Wyoming, and we are inundated with wind farms and there is no way to get the power (however pathetic it is) into any power grid. The problem with wind power and other renewable sources of green energy is it does not work. North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and other states sit on huge vast oil based companies that is readily available if we build the pipeline. Have you ever seen the wind turbines blow up? Hell, wind energy started in Wyoming and on top of that, it ended there. The wind speed is too fast for the turbines to actually function and so when that happens they actually blow up. The only place that they are functional that I know of in the world would be the leeward side of Hawaii with an average wind speed of 3 to 5 mph and that produces NOTHING. So sorry, you need to get off the green thing and growing foods to provide ethanol does not work either. Reread the article that Onn posted and perhaps you can see the difference. Like I said, Chris, this is not an attack on you... this is a fact!
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JMAC, I did not get any of this in the article but that is no surprise. They confirmed in grade school that written comprehension skills were non existent.

I thought I read that biodiesel was a great replacement for traditional diesel. Must have misread that.

You will be happy to know we have a pheasant camp 3 miles from a wind farm.
 
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I was in northwest Nebraska today amd I saw windmills pumping water, just like they did 100 years ago. I think if you can use the power where it is produced wind and solar probably work. When you try to produce power in South Dakota that is going to be used in Chicago, then I think you have problems. I know of people that have lived off the grid with solar and wind. It is not perfect but it can be done.
 
UGUIDE said:
JMAC, I did not get any of this in the article but that is no surprise. They confirmed in grade school that written comprehension skills were non existent.

I thought I read that biodiesel was a great replacement for traditional diesel. Must have misread that.

You will be happy to know we have a pheasant camp 3 miles from a wind farm.
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I gleaned the same thing from the article, bio-diesel is a one to one exchange energy wise, and the first diesel exhibited by the inventor, at the Paris world exhibition was run on straight peanut oil. Ethanol is 66% as effective as petro based gasoline.
 
oldandnew said:
I gleaned the same thing from the article, bio-diesel is a one to one exchange energy wise, and the first diesel exhibited by the inventor, at the Paris world exhibition was run on straight peanut oil. Ethanol is 66% as effective as petro based gasoline.
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All kinds of problems with Bio Diesel in cold weather. Gets thick as molasses.
 
onpoint said:
All kinds of problems with Bio Diesel in cold weather. Gets thick as molasses.
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So does regular petro- diesel that hasn't been winterized! Up there in the frozen north, winterized petro diesel may be all you guys get! Down here they switch the blend to add winterization as the season changes, many a trucker has been caught with un-winterized diesel in a cold snap.
 
oldandnew said:
So does regular petro- diesel that hasn't been winterized! Up there in the frozen north, winterized petro diesel may be all you guys get! Down here they switch the blend to add winterization as the season changes, many a trucker has been caught with un-winterized diesel in a cold snap.
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I have used diesel tractors and pickups for 20 years or more. We get straight #2, #1 and blended. Bio does not thin out like petroleum does with additives.
 
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