Everyones Input Please

Multiple dogs and training are tough. I run 2 dogs and often start 1 dog at a time in order to focus on each dog during that "excited time" individually. Dealing with someone else's dog is tougher yet! If it's your good hunting buddy, you guys may want to hunt behind one dog at a time, you'll always have a fresh dog. Hunting is an extension of training and we both need a hand when training. When we hunt together we always have fresh dogs and can help each other in training "opportunities" as they arise. As a rule, I want it to be:
1. Positive for my dogs.
2. Positive for me.
3. Positive for those that are with me.
After our dogs have settled in for a period, (and we have our fix of shooting birds) we run all 3 dogs, my two setters and his "pointing-when-he-has-ran-like-hell-and-tired" lab. We are both willing to deal with what may come. Hunts for us are extensions of training.
 
Well, I agree he needed a shock collar. the difficult point is that a shock collar isn't a trainer, it is a tool in the hands of the trainer. If the dog does not know what the owner wants, they the collar will not speak dog language to him. I typically won't hunt with guys without e-collars on their dogs. My thoughts are that he needs to understand that any break from a dog that isn't corrected immediately is a problem. Yes I do shock my dogs a lot. Sometimes 50 times in a day, but only nicks to remind them of what I want. Before anyone crucifies me I used to guide at a game farm and shot 1148 birds over my two dogs in one season, they got to the point where we could chase running birds they could see on the ground and they would not break until released. I couldn't afford to have a dog break or get too excited. My advise is to lay out your expectations before the hunt with anybody that has dogs and make it clear what everyone's expectations are. BTW we hunted pointers and flushers all the time in the same field! It is all in the training and the obedience of the dogs. My 2c!
 
Golden Boy:

Can you clarify the middle portion of your paragraph..".wouldn't break until released." Not sure I understand.

You seem to agree to the "50 nicks" it sometimes takes to rein in a very aggressive dog.

Thanks for the input.
 
Johny, they want to go and sometimes that little nick as they start to ease forward is enough to keep them at heel. This is while I can see birds running on the ground in the corn rows in front of us. Because I didn't shoot while guiding I can watch the dogs closely and see when their energy is about ready to burst and they are looking to bust out running. As the season wore on all that was needed was a low voice from me to heel or whoa.
 
G-Boy,

Thanks for the clarification. Holding a dog back in a corn field with a "flock" running ahead is nie impossible! Heeling does work for me...
 
Flushers and Pointers

Running a pointing dog with a flushing dog can be a tough decision, in my opinion. I hunted my 2 year old setter last week with a couple springers and a lab. As I figured might happen, when he was on point and the flushers came busting in, he pulled back and left the scene. The guy with the lab was astute enough to see what was happening and would call off his dog after a couple of those.

One of my former dogs was very staunch and we could bring in a flusher to flush the bird, she would hold steady to wing. I don't expect a young dog to be able to handle that situation and worry it could cause him to not be staunch.

A buddy has a Brittany that is not trained, fat and out of shape. Does not obey at all and runs off into the sunset. The first time I hunted with him he brought the piece of crap along and sure enough, she waddled off straight line 200 yards out and starts flushing birds while my dog worked in front as expected. She really screwed up our hunt. I didn't have to say much, as his son was livid he brought the thing along. After a while he left her in the vehicle. Last year Iowa hunt again he wasn't going to bring her, then did. Only this time he brought the shock collar along. We line up, I send mine out to hunt, his starts waddling off into the sunset and he hammers her with the E collar. She thankfully waddled around by his side the rest of the weekend and didn't get in the way. Mine put on a clinic for the guys and we shot their first ever limit. There's nothing worse than hunting with a dog that won't mind.
 
Dog Training--here we go.

On this you will get as many opinions as you want to solicit. But, the problem is not with the dog. Dogs do what dogs do. My dog is not a great retriever. He retrieves, but reluctantly. His problem? Not just no, but heII no!! My problem. I haven't taken the TIME to train him to retrieve as he should. It's a lot of work.

My dog does quarter beautifully, point with unbelievable style, and will hold a point for as long as it takes me to get there. No matter what. That is what I trained him to do. Some of it is built in to the breed, some I helped along, but he does what he is told to do in the field. Because he knows what he is supposed to do in the field.

Does he get a little goofy that first field out of the truck? Sure. Every dog worth a bag of dog food does. They love it as much as we do. My dog trembles that last mile before the hunt. He is shaking like he's freezing. I love that!!

But that first field out of the truck is near my house and the birds are planted pigeons. He can f*ck that up all he wants. I have plenty of pigeons with me. I let him make a few mistakes without correction. He stops, looks at me. Realizes he screwed up. No guns. We move on. More pigeons. He calms down. More pigeons. He is rock solid. I shoot one or two. But mostly I let the birds fly. I want him to KNOW he is hunting for ME, not himself. I have his collar on the lowest setting possible in order to communicate.

Now we are ready for real birds. It costs me about $50 bucks for a dozen pigeons. But when I go after real birds my dog is READY.

Your buddy needs to work that sh*t out on his own. It is rude to make you put up with that kind of crap on an expensive game farm hunt.

And one last thing, the biggest problem with collars is guys think they are a teaching tool. They are not. At least not primarily, a teaching tool. A collar is a correcting tool. The dog has to know what it is supposed to do, know he didn't do it, and the collar is letting him know he better not do it again. I don't touch my transmitter more than a dozen times a day. And that is mostly a light tap to say, "Hey, look at me. We are going this way now, or no, I don't want you going in that direction."

My new Sportdog 1875 has a vibrator setting, no shock at all, and that is all it takes 99% of the time.

So, for your buddy and everyone else that wants to enjoy that first hunt. PUT IN THE TIME IN AUGUST AND SEPTEMBER ON YOUR OWN WITH PLANTED PIGEONS.

And if you haven't already done it, do it now. You won't regret it.
 
Correcting tool...I agree.

And it may take alot of correcting, depending on the dog - age, breed, hunting experience, pain tolarance et al.
 
if you have to shock your dog 50 times in a field you probably shouldnt have a hunting dog..its not fair to the dog..its clear he wasn't trained and his instincts are taking over any training that was given. I would be pretty pissed at a friend if he was sitting there hammering on the ecollar all day on a wild dog. Put the dog back in the truck and go home with it until you have trained him and then come back. To me its 99 percent of the time the owners fault.. Its like a dad yelling at his kid in freaking t ball. Grow up, train your dog, dont punish him for chasing birds..that was what he was born to do..working close, quartering, retrieving to hand, honoring other dogs, listening to commands and responding to you only happens when you TRAIN him.

People who over use an ecollar are worse then a dog that busts up birds...
To me they are the scum of the hunting world next to poachers and people who leave trash everywhere.

people who over use an ecollar are on the axis of evil (will ferrel imitating george bush jr voice on SNL) :mad:
 
Lone Rooster, I agree with you that shocking a dog continuously is cruel and inhumane. My nicks, lots of times vibrations, and shocks to my dogs are that long unseen check cord. The beauty of having a dog who hunts is that when there are very few birds they are searching for scent all the time and find more scent than dogs who are not birdy. I used to freak out at guys who would shock their dogs when they are on bird scent. I thought it would teach them to stay away from that scent and that stimulation. That is not the case. Many times my flushers will get on a running bird and their instinct is to get that bird in the air, to flush it. The problem is that the dog is much faster than me! So I sometimes nick, sometimes vibrate, to get the dogs attention. Call them back to me, heel them for maybe 50 to 100 yards, release them and they instantly run back to that scent cone and get back to business, but now within range of my gun. I am a dog lover and would never hurt my dogs, but drive is something that has to be controlled and each dog is different.
 
brace mate

that you didn't. some of the folk here got too far off, the problem here is you. you didn't do your homework, ie: hunting friend, two different types of dogs, running the dogs down a shelter belt, what would you expect anyway, should have expected a disaster and bucko, you got it. smarten up is what i would say. better luck next time and put some thought into what you are doing.

cheers
 
Informative info. Our "Goldens" seem to operate in high gear most of the time and have a very high prey drive: holding them back is a continual challenge, especially with lots of scent and running roosters.

And you are so right about keeping up with a galloping dog - not going to do it! As soon as my dog has a bird wiff, he's on the move: neck out, ears back and nose close to the ground, and the proverbial tail wag.

This dog is just three: maybe when he's as old as me, he'll slow down...
 
good call on the vibrate function, my tri tronic collar has a very small beep (not the large beep used for pointers) that I hit to slow her down, it simulates a whistle blast. She knows that if she hears the beep and doesnt listen the nick is coming. I would say I have to nick her 5 times a season, but I beep her about 5 times a hunt.
 
Bird-man said:
On this you will get as many opinions as you want to solicit. But, the problem is not with the dog. Dogs do what dogs do. My dog is not a great retriever. He retrieves, but reluctantly. His problem? Not just no, but heII no!! My problem. I haven't taken the TIME to train him to retrieve as he should. It's a lot of work.

My dog does quarter beautifully, point with unbelievable style, and will hold a point for as long as it takes me to get there. No matter what. That is what I trained him to do. Some of it is built in to the breed, some I helped along, but he does what he is told to do in the field. Because he knows what he is supposed to do in the field.

Does he get a little goofy that first field out of the truck? Sure. Every dog worth a bag of dog food does. They love it as much as we do. My dog trembles that last mile before the hunt. He is shaking like he's freezing. I love that!!

But that first field out of the truck is near my house and the birds are planted pigeons. He can f*ck that up all he wants. I have plenty of pigeons with me. I let him make a few mistakes without correction. He stops, looks at me. Realizes he screwed up. No guns. We move on. More pigeons. He calms down. More pigeons. He is rock solid. I shoot one or two. But mostly I let the birds fly. I want him to KNOW he is hunting for ME, not himself. I have his collar on the lowest setting possible in order to communicate.

Now we are ready for real birds. It costs me about $50 bucks for a dozen pigeons. But when I go after real birds my dog is READY.

Your buddy needs to work that sh*t out on his own. It is rude to make you put up with that kind of crap on an expensive game farm hunt.

And one last thing, the biggest problem with collars is guys think they are a teaching tool. They are not. At least not primarily, a teaching tool. A collar is a correcting tool. The dog has to know what it is supposed to do, know he didn't do it, and the collar is letting him know he better not do it again. I don't touch my transmitter more than a dozen times a day. And that is mostly a light tap to say, "Hey, look at me. We are going this way now, or no, I don't want you going in that direction."

My new Sportdog 1875 has a vibrator setting, no shock at all, and that is all it takes 99% of the time.

So, for your buddy and everyone else that wants to enjoy that first hunt. PUT IN THE TIME IN AUGUST AND SEPTEMBER ON YOUR OWN WITH PLANTED PIGEONS.

And if you haven't already done it, do it now. You won't regret it.
Click to expand...

Well said! That lab or britt desctibed here could both be the finest bird dogs anyone has ever had the pleasure of shooting over but they are scoffed because the owners didn't put in the time it takes to make a bird dog. A pedigree is just a starting point, after that its all about training to mold the dog of your dreams.
 
David0311

LoneRooster said:
good call on the vibrate function, my tri tronic collar has a very small beep (not the large beep used for pointers) that I hit to slow her down, it simulates a whistle blast. She knows that if she hears the beep and doesnt listen the nick is coming. I would say I have to nick her 5 times a season, but I beep her about 5 times a hunt.
Click to expand...

X2 Some one gets it---perfect answer---all confused -- read above post...and some who don't think you are confused--read several times--and remember my (you do not train with a collar---you enforce what the dog has already been trained on)JMO
 
And one last thing. I remember my dog busting a covey of quail when he was about a year and a half. And where I hunt a covey of quail is getting rare. I was pissed. But, let it go, and we went on. He busted another one. And I let go. Called him in, cussed him out, yelled at him, grabbed his chin, had my face right in his, and he got an ear full. Naturally his tail was between his legs and he was feeling bad.

I went over and sat in the grass to cool off. My wonderful young setter came over, laid down and put his chin on my thigh. I could have cried. He wants to please me so much and knew I was unhappy. And it wasn't his fault. Quail make any dog nervous. There are a lot of birds there, maybe 15-20, and some are walking around, and the scent is incredible. and he was so excited he moved, and they flew. And I blew up.

I gotta tell ya, I felt like sh1t that whole day. He was a young dog just learning. And so was I.

I am so gentle with this dog now. And he is so good. He knows what I want and he does it.

So, how did I get him to hold point on quail? Pigeons!!

I took three, tied their legs to a post, and then walked him into the scent on a 30 foot lead. And there they were, three birds walking around, and his nose full of scent. But I had him under control. So, I held him there for 3-4 minutes, letting him watch those birds walk around. Then I tied him to my portable post, walked in and picked the birds up and put them in my bird bag.

Did that like three times and he is so rock solid now, because he knows moving birds don't equal moving dog, unless they walk away completely like a running rooster, and then he can relocate.

I'll tell you, watching my dog learn has been 99% of the fun of training him. We all know there's nothing better than a good dog in the field. And like a lot of folks have said, there are few bad dogs, but a lot of bad owners!

Good hunting.
 
BritChaser said:
Had similar experiences. A non-pointing breed that goes beyond range is a 100% negative. You're be better off without it afield.
Click to expand...

This. I never like pheasant hunting with labs for this exact reason. Too many times I've seen their tails start wagging, see them pick up speed and away they go to flush a bird 100yds ahead.

I understand many successfully hunt upland birds with labs but I'm a pointing dog guy in the upland fields and labs are built for waterfowl.

(edit - I don't like upland hunting game farms with Labs)
 
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shocking

goldenboy said:
Lone Rooster, I agree with you that shocking a dog continuously is cruel and inhumane. My nicks, lots of times vibrations, and shocks to my dogs are that long unseen check cord. The beauty of having a dog who hunts is that when there are very few birds they are searching for scent all the time and find more scent than dogs who are not birdy. I used to freak out at guys who would shock their dogs when they are on bird scent. I thought it would teach them to stay away from that scent and that stimulation. That is not the case. Many times my flushers will get on a running bird and their instinct is to get that bird in the air, to flush it. The problem is that the dog is much faster than me! So I sometimes nick, sometimes vibrate, to get the dogs attention. Call them back to me, heel them for maybe 50 to 100 yards, release them and they instantly run back to that scent cone and get back to business, but now within range of my gun. I am a dog lover and would never hurt my dogs, but drive is something that has to be controlled and each dog is different.
Click to expand...

you could do the same thing with a whistle ya know instead of having fried bird dog brains

cheers
 
I agree Mustiff I had a dog trained to the whistle. It did really well until someone else with a whistle trained dog enters the equation. Now who does the dog listen to. He tweets the here signal and my dogs comes to me, he looks up and says, What? I release him and he hears the here whistle again or the sit whistle and he responds. Do you see the confusion? He doesn't know if it is my whistle or my buddies whistle. Many times on late season birds any noise like a whistle will startle birds as well. The quieter I am the better. I have trained my dogs that a low whistle from my mouth is quieter and better understood than a loud referee whistle that anybody can use or train a dog on. Usually the simple whistle works then I vibrate and then it is a nick. please don't think I am a cruel dog guy, just one that has run dogs enough to know what works in different situations.
 
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