My dog has been in training for alittle while now and is doing good, but I was wondering if someone with a more seasoned dog wanted to get together so my dog could see more what it's about. And I'm always lookin to learn more myself. Just let me know. I have a 3yr old gsp started training this past summer.
Dog teaching dog
- Thread starter GSP87
- Start date
Have you been working on and off with your dog, or has he/she not been worked at all? I'm only asking because three years old is a little late to start training. Not saying it can't be done, but starting them young is fairly important.
Hopefully someone in your area can work with you, and hopefully your dog will be a natural at honoring. :thumbsup:
Hopefully someone in your area can work with you, and hopefully your dog will be a natural at honoring. :thumbsup:
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
You can't teach your dog to honor until it is whoa broke. Get the book "Here, Whoa, Dead Bird". Do a search for it. C.A. passed away a few years back but you can still find the book. My grandad was a field trialer and hunter back in the 40's-60's. He would never hunt a young dog with an older dog. He always said he never wanted a young pup sticking its nose in an older dogs ass.
I don't believe this at all. I have a pup right now that has never heard the word whoa, but he's learned to honor other dogs and will do so no matter the distance. I'm a firm believer in a young dog learning from an older dog. I've done it many times.
I agree,I think that younger dogs learn real quick from older dogs,or get there ass whipped by the older dog.
Most dogs are extremly proud that they found and pointed the bird,and when another dog breaks in on the point,it pisses them off.
I have seen it more then once,the older dog snapping at the younger dog,as it sneaks in to take over the point.
Most dogs are extremly proud that they found and pointed the bird,and when another dog breaks in on the point,it pisses them off.
I have seen it more then once,the older dog snapping at the younger dog,as it sneaks in to take over the point.
Shadow
Banned
every pup I've had I started with an older dog with manners
also say- some have been natural backers- some have needed to be repositioned a few times- to understand- adult or another pup who holds and looks like its pointing has helped the other youngster to get the idea-
never wanted a young pup sticking it's nose- that's funny- I've had pups creep right up alongside- nose working- also seen an adult snap at one that wanted to crowd
course, I've been known to use wing on a string to get it down
op- at this point of 3 years old you have a real battle- suggest you get yours to a pro trainer- don't see it learning anything good by being in the field with a good dog- unless you really are ready to handle your's and apply force alot
good luck
Dakotazeb
Well-known member
I believe there are both pluses and minuses in working a young dog with an older dog. Of course it may depend on the level of training the older dog has. Years back I hunted a new pup with my older Brittany. The older retriever was a fierce retriever and very possesive of the birds. thus he retrieved all the birds and the pup learned NOT to retrieve. I know, my bad! But this is one example of where it didn't do the younger dog any good. I think you have to be careful. Personally I'd prefer to work the young dog alone. This is another one of those issues that everyone has to do what works best for them.
And I don't believe a dog must be Whoa broke in order to honor. My dog honors extremely well and did this prior to any Whoa training. Of course the Honor was pretty much natural. I suppose that for a dog that does not honor it would be easier to teach them if they were Whoa broke.
Every dog is different and you have to learn to read your dog in order to provide the best training method for each dog. It's not a one size fits all approach.
And I don't believe a dog must be Whoa broke in order to honor. My dog honors extremely well and did this prior to any Whoa training. Of course the Honor was pretty much natural. I suppose that for a dog that does not honor it would be easier to teach them if they were Whoa broke.
Every dog is different and you have to learn to read your dog in order to provide the best training method for each dog. It's not a one size fits all approach.
What are you wanting your dog to learn from the older dog?
Birds will teach your dog more then any person, dog, video or what have you.
In fact, run a young dog (Experiencewise) with an older dog too often, and you'll just have a dog following another dog. You want an independent dog working to find birds for you, not just following another dog around. Birds will teach that dog where to look. You have to remain consistant and fair to the dog. Get the dog into birds enough, and you'll see him hit objectives (if there are any) take lines (if there are any) and he'll figure it out soon enough.
Now if you are wanting to teach backing, then yeah, different ball game.
My dog learned to whoa and honor almost simultaneously. A college roommate got a German Shorthair approximately three months after I did, and we trained them both together. The pair have been hunting together every year since, and make a pretty good team.
Now that my "pup" is seven years old, I'd say a younger dog could learn a lot by hunting with her, although the only young dog that has had that opportunity was a "green" lab, who had never been in the field, until this year. Although a lab won't learn much from a pointer, she did learn to do her own thing in the field after receiving a few ass-whippings from my pointer for following her around and interfering with her hunting.
I also think a lot of the hunting instinct not only comes from the breed, but from the genetics of the blood line, and the general disposition to hunt. My pup can point and honor with the best of them, but she is shitty at retrieving. That's likely my fault, as I never had the heart to "force retrieve" with her. She will point a dead bird though, and sometimes go lay down with one, but she doesn't tear them up (she has an extremely soft mouth).
I might add that my dog, although a purebred, doesn't come from a "championship" blood line. I got her for $75 in Lecompton, KS - and couldn't be happier with her eagerness to hunt, and her performance over the years.
Now that my "pup" is seven years old, I'd say a younger dog could learn a lot by hunting with her, although the only young dog that has had that opportunity was a "green" lab, who had never been in the field, until this year. Although a lab won't learn much from a pointer, she did learn to do her own thing in the field after receiving a few ass-whippings from my pointer for following her around and interfering with her hunting.
I also think a lot of the hunting instinct not only comes from the breed, but from the genetics of the blood line, and the general disposition to hunt. My pup can point and honor with the best of them, but she is shitty at retrieving. That's likely my fault, as I never had the heart to "force retrieve" with her. She will point a dead bird though, and sometimes go lay down with one, but she doesn't tear them up (she has an extremely soft mouth).
I might add that my dog, although a purebred, doesn't come from a "championship" blood line. I got her for $75 in Lecompton, KS - and couldn't be happier with her eagerness to hunt, and her performance over the years.
LOL, that's how I picked my dog out of the litter. I originally was there to look at an all-liver male. After examining the pups, I asked the guy "you got a quail or pheasant wing, and a fishin' rod?" When we got that out, the liver male got distracted by a butterfly, and lost all interest in the wing. Needless to say he didn't go home with me...
I used the wing/fishin' rod combo a TON out in the back yard. It's a really useful tool.
Thankfully some clear thinking. Like it says above, why would you want your dog to follow another? What reason would your pup have to find birds on his own if the other dog will do it for him? Natural backers are great but if the young dog does not honor anothers point you are much better off having already taught whoa so you can move in and reinforce a command already known, not teach it while hunting wild birds.
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
I guess I should have explained more clearly. A dog needs to go through yard work before ever being taken to the field. Which includes introductions to birds. And it also includes whoa breaking. If you truely believe another dog is going to train your pup go ahead.
Its about like saying retrievers do not need to be force fetched. Every retriever should go through force fetch. Some can hunt their dogs without fine. But force fetching is the foundation for producing a quality retriever. Just like whoa breaking is the foundation for a pointing dog. Given that you bought a quality puppy that has desire to find and retrieve birds.
But don't take my advice. Call Scott Miller at Scott Miller Kennels. He is the premier dog trainer in the country. Every dog their goes through the whoa breaking process.
There is also a big difference between backing and creeping then co-pointing.
Its about like saying retrievers do not need to be force fetched. Every retriever should go through force fetch. Some can hunt their dogs without fine. But force fetching is the foundation for producing a quality retriever. Just like whoa breaking is the foundation for a pointing dog. Given that you bought a quality puppy that has desire to find and retrieve birds.
But don't take my advice. Call Scott Miller at Scott Miller Kennels. He is the premier dog trainer in the country. Every dog their goes through the whoa breaking process.
There is also a big difference between backing and creeping then co-pointing.
Shadow
Banned
too bad you haven't been arround any Brittany breeders-
I've got three that haven't seen a bit of yard training- a little 16 month old that is quite enjoyable to see in the house and field- alone or with others and dogs-
no way would I say every dog has to go thru training or be whoa trained, FF, to make a darn fine upland dog
and I'm thinking of getting back into field trialing- got a couple that could do it now
my wife things I should train mine- I smile
I've got three that haven't seen a bit of yard training- a little 16 month old that is quite enjoyable to see in the house and field- alone or with others and dogs-
no way would I say every dog has to go thru training or be whoa trained, FF, to make a darn fine upland dog
and I'm thinking of getting back into field trialing- got a couple that could do it now
my wife things I should train mine- I smile
I know the difference between backing and creeping into another dogs point. My dogs back and I didn't teach them, they learned by hunting with other dogs. As far as yard work, as soon as a pup knows the command "here" then I'll take them to the field to run (not hunt), but run. Not sure why they'd need to know anything else. I know people believe different things, but I don't really think a dog needs to know whoa. I have a 10 year old that was whoa broke at a trainer and I've hunted the dog for 10 years now and I don't think I've ever whoa'd him. If they back on sight and know how to handle birds, why would you need to whoa a dog? I understand some people want to whoa them around roads, but the command "here" can be used for that.
As far as calling a trainer and asking him, that's one guys way of doing things. It doesn't make it right or wrong.
As far as calling a trainer and asking him, that's one guys way of doing things. It doesn't make it right or wrong.
HUNTIN4FUN
Member
I myself would try and refrain from taking your pup afield with another experienced dog. Your dog needs its own time afield before it can be ran with other dogs. I think for the vast majority of dogs the only things they learn are bad habbits, not to say that a more experienced dog couldn't teach your dog a good thing or two. I think alot of it comes from the younger dogs lack of confidence so it is more likely to try and cut corners to get the desired results that the more experienced dog is getting. If I were you I would take the dog out by yourself and establish where it is in its training and natural ability. Once you have done this then you can go back to the drawing board and work on faults you may find. Everybody has different expectations of what a hunting dog should be and if after a couple of times afield you feel that your dog is ready to find birds on its own and with good confidence then try another dog. I would suggest not finding a dog too far away from what you have as far as abilities so that both you and the dog don't get frustrated. Only after your dog has established a solid foundation and is the dog it is going to be would I hunt with more dogs. I really believe that you will get more enjoyment out of watching your new found bird dog get its wings and become a bird dog on its own. Just my two cents and I am sure others will chime in as well like they have done. Just ask yourself what you want out of the dog and make sure your expectations are obtainable. Good luck and happy hunting.
As already demonstrated admirably from the posts already made, the new dog will develop the same style as well as the strength and weaknesses of the trainer dog. If developed individually, you have a chance to establish and bring out the individual strengths of the new dog without the downside of learned undesirable behavior. Example, I don't use an e-collar, took forever to break a 30# French Brittany Bitch now 4 from deer chasing. Now we have an uneasy truce. But hunt her with any of her sons, or daughters, and all bets are off! even though none would do it on their own, they will follow her, enboldening her to lead the chase. I start the verbal cautions early and often and now succeed about 95% of the time,of avoiding a running of the stags. I got her as a 2 year old, and she had her pups from birth, and trained them to obey her, I had to retrain them to obey me,as well as convince her to obey me, after being allowed to be a free running self hunter, as a young dog.
Ranger Danger
Member
I am assuming your dog has learned the basics, here and heel and you can control the dog with commands off leash. Whoa is a bonus, in my opinion. I trained it, but rarely use it in the field. What your dog needs is birds or a bird substitute, wings wrapped to dummy, etc. Preserves are great for getting a dog into birds, check cord the dog and bring a shooter. You need to focus on handling the dog. There are certain things that dogs can learn from other dogs, but remember a dog learns through repetition. A dog does need to learn to hunt with other dogs, but needs to learn to hunt first. One of the biggest complaints you'll read about is "a guy brought this dog....." and ruined the hunt, you don't want to be him. Whoa training is important because you can make the dog honor, stop chasing of fur, and for the dog's safety.
westksbowhunter
Well-known member
Never felt like field trials showed whether or not you had a quality dog. Hunt test and shoot to retrieve competitions measured the quality of a hunting dog much better.
Shadow
Banned
any decent NSTRA dog in the field with yours will tell you- course as in NSTRA- you would have to leave your shocker collar in the vehicle
meaning- would you hunt yours all day with a Nolan's Last Bullet class dog- and if yours didn't have manners you'd leash it but continue the days hunt
I've hunted field trial dogs and been with a couple AKC FT dogs- best spend a day hunting yours with one
- course bring the camera