Best way for pointing dog to handle phez

SetterNut

SetterNut

New member
Saw this on another BB, and thought that it would be interesting to see what the pheasant junkies think.

What do you think is the most effective way for a pointing dog to handle pheasants.

Point and hold till released, self relocate, point at long distance or up close, .....

What do you think?
 
I am no expert but in my experience it depends on the dog. My first pointing dog was a chocolate lab. He pointed close and NEVER false pointed. My next was a GWP that pointed close and sometimes false pointed. To be fair there were alot more birds and alot more scent in the era of the GWP than when I was hunting the lab. Now I have a Drahthaar that points at long range. I have learned and am learning how to deal with that. The first two dogs I let flush the birds when I was ready, the Draht I have hold and I flush the bird. I like it when he points a bird at long range because it gives me an early warning and I can react accordingly. It is also a matter of personal preference. I really like what my dog and I can do the way we are doing it now. I wish I could have hunted all three dogs during the same conditions to be fair to the dogs. We have so many more birds now than we did back in the 80s that is hard to compare. Also I have learned alot since I started hunting with a dog. That old lab taught me alot about hunting with a dog.
 
My GSP usuall points at about 10 feet depending on conditions, i like it as it seems to give me time to get ready, i keep him put till i flush the bird.
 
For me when there is snow on ground and birds are holding tight I usually will hunt with a pair of my shorhair, they are nastra dogs so they are trained to point at first sent and hold that point until released. Now when the birds are spooky and running I go with a pair of btittanys which together do a great job at relocating and together for the most part work together as a team to pin them down.
 
D: All the Above. I think conditions warrant different styles of hunting for a well trained GSP. I have experience great points within 10 feet and up to 40 feet. I have also had them in a snow pack standing right on top of a bird...funniest thing I've ever seen. Imagine a hunting dog that finds his prey beneath his feet. Baffled the crap out of him but he did not move. He started to jump up and down with his front feet. Funny as heck.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...
 
SetterNut said:
Saw this on another BB, and thought that it would be interesting to see what the pheasant junkies think.

What do you think is the most effective way for a pointing dog to handle pheasants.

Point and hold till released, self relocate, point at long distance or up close, .....

What do you think?
Click to expand...

I hunt wild birds only and want my dog to self relocate on a moving bird. One of the most satisfying experiences I have in the field is following my dog (if I can keep up) as he tracks and repoints a moving bird. It is a beautiful thing to watch and reveals the dog's full intincts and talents at work.

If I am hunting alone or with just my regular buddy, my dog can roam far, just so long as I can see him. He will hold his point, as long as the bird holds, until I come up and flush it. In a group I like my dog closer to me so I benefit from his hunting. If there are few dogs, I let him quarter out so others can get shots off his points.

Once at about 3 pm on a Sunday I was hunting alone in a big patch of CRP when my dog went on point about 150 yards away -- birds were scarce that season. I wanted to hurry but just didn't have the legs left so I told myself to relax and I ambled across to the point. The bird held, it was a cock, and I bagged it, all thanks to the dog.
 
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SetterNut said:
Saw this on another BB, and thought that it would be interesting to see what the pheasant junkies think.

What do you think is the most effective way for a pointing dog to handle pheasants.

Point and hold till released, self relocate, point at long distance or up close, .....

What do you think?
Click to expand...
Setternut To me it makes a great deal of difference if there Wild or penraised or so called released. Witch one are you asking about?
 
wesslpointer said:
Setternut To me it makes a great deal of difference if there Wild or penraised or so called released. Witch one are you asking about?
Click to expand...

I should have said Wild Pheasants.
In this part of the country there isn't any reason to hunt pen raised or released birds, when you have the real thing.
 
For Wild pheasants I have seen a couple of different styles, and each has its strong points.

My current LS, Ace is a point on first scent dog. He is (at least for his first 2 season) very cautious about getting too close to a bird. He does not relocate on his own, so you don't see him bump birds much, but there are times where a bird will sneak off. However he is a fairly quick running dog, and will slam on the brakes. This does help hold the birds in my opinion. But Ace is still pretty inexperience on pheasants. I have only had him in pheasant country 3 times, and two of those were on the last day of the season, on educated birds.

I had a Gordon many years ago that was a pretty good pheasant dog. She learned to circle. She would point them, then if the bird had moved off and I released her, she would loop around the bird and come back toward me. That would pin the bird between us. That was very effective.

Lets hear what some of the rest of you see and like / dislike in the way dogs handle wild pheasants.
 
my dogs have cannons for noses and have pointed 20+ yards . really cool seeing them backing each other with 4 on the ground.:D:thumbsup:
 
I've got 10 dogs I hunt with, but the two I call the A-team have different but complementary styles. The male is a "let me at em" type. Classic quartering pattern, high energy, really fun to watch. The female works the wind patiently, hunting close, checking back often, pointing at longer distances, and backing. He hunts the front and she closes off the back and side doors. They are equally effective when hunted solo. It took less than 3 minutes for each to pass the TAN.

So, I don't think there is a best way for a pointing dog to handle pheasants so long as they find them before you shoot them and find them after you shoot them.

The best of the best learn from their mistakes, and they will make plenty when they are young. Once they get the wild birds figured out you have a hunting partner, not just a hunting dog.
 
Differing styles

An old setter, Molly, was trained to hold staunch on point until released. She would point from away if there was wind, very, very close if she came upon a bird suddenly, like was apt to happen with woodcock, but also happens with pheasants. Sometimes it was a real pain to have to circle back through cover to release her when a bird was running.

My last setter, Major, I did not train that way. I let him figure it out for himself. One time in SD he went on point and as I walked up he broke off, relocated on point. I saw an old wheel rut in the tall grass and deduced the bird was running up that rut. He relocated 3 times before breaking off to the side, making a big circle and locked up tight coming back toward me. He cut the runner off and pinned it between he and me. A big bird with 1" spurs. Major was only 1-1/2 at that time and I was very impressed that a young dog figured that out. It was too bad that he died prematurely at 5 years.

But I've got the new pup, 9 weeks old now and I hope he's got the same smarts as the other two. I'll train him as I did Major as I've come to like that style and value smarts over breaking.

All of these dogs are foot shooting Setters that range 30-40 yards. No offense, but I'm not into the big running dogs because here in the grouse woods it doesn't work. They hunt pheasants, grouse and woodcock equally as well.
 
Rick

I have never been grouse hunting so I have no idea that the terrain is like.

My setter is in know way a big runner, but he is more like 50 - 150 yards. There will be some some longer and shorter casts but that is the 80% rule.

That is a moderate range in this areas. If you are hunting in decent cover pheasant well hold more than enough time for me to get there and flush.

I do think you may be on to something about the level of training and the dog relocating on its own. My current setter has had significatly more training at this stage than any of my previous dogs. It may be that the training has limited his relocating, but he also has always been a stop on first scent dog.
 
SetterNut, Here in the grouse woods, sometimes you can't see your dog at 10 yards. A lot of heavy cover, which makes for some tough shooting, too. It's work sometimes going 50 yards for a dog on point and that's when you really appreciate a staunch dog. I have a friend with a female setter that ranges more out to 100 yards, which would be great in the field for pheasants, but I'm getting too old to have to slog that far through tag alders and such for a dog on point.

You gotta love a dog that slams on point on first body scent and holds tight as long as theres body scent in his nose. One time I was hunting with a friend who had another guy along. He had never hunted with a pointing dog. Molly goes on point out in front of us and I direct the guys in. She's on point in an area with almost no ground cover, with the wind coming from the direction of a clump of bushes about 20 yards away. The guy starts looking around on the ground surrounding the dog and I tell him there's no bird there, check the wind and you'll see the bird is in that clump of bushes. He asks "But what's she looking at?" "She's not looking at anything, she's got bird scent in her nose coming on the wind from those bushes". He never did figure it out and continued to look around while I had another guy go through those bushes and flush the hen that was in there. Afterwards he was still asking what the dog was looking at. Pretty funny.

On another hunt in SW Minnesota I was with a group that had no experience with pointing dogs. After the first patch of cover, a 15 year old kid in teh group had it figured out that this pointing dog was pretty cool and was going to find birds. We were setting up to work a marsh that was pretty wet in the back. I said I would take the far fencline [with the most water] knowing that with hunting pressure that's where we'd find the most birds. The kid said he'd come with me. I shot 2 roosters, he shot 1, we each missed one and Major pointed at least 8 hens. We got to the far end and the kid comes to me, all smiles, and says how much fun that was. All staucnh points and with the wet conditions it was good I didn't have a wider ranging dog as it was tougher going in all that water and bog.
 
Major was Great

Ranger Rick said:
An old setter, Molly, was trained to hold staunch on point until released. She would point from away if there was wind, very, very close if she came upon a bird suddenly, like was apt to happen with woodcock, but also happens with pheasants. Sometimes it was a real pain to have to circle back through cover to release her when a bird was running.

My last setter, Major, I did not train that way. I let him figure it out for himself. One time in SD he went on point and as I walked up he broke off, relocated on point. I saw an old wheel rut in the tall grass and deduced the bird was running up that rut. He relocated 3 times before breaking off to the side, making a big circle and locked up tight coming back toward me. He cut the runner off and pinned it between he and me. A big bird with 1" spurs. Major was only 1-1/2 at that time and I was very impressed that a young dog figured that out. It was too bad that he died prematurely at 5 years.

But I've got the new pup, 9 weeks old now and I hope he's got the same smarts as the other two. I'll train him as I did Major as I've come to like that style and value smarts over breaking.

All of these dogs are foot shooting Setters that range 30-40 yards. No offense, but I'm not into the big running dogs because here in the grouse woods it doesn't work. They hunt pheasants, grouse and woodcock equally as well.
Click to expand...

Major's work was just what I get out of my dog on a moving bird and I love it. It's so satisfying to watch the dog point, relocate, point, etc. Sorry Major is not with you any more.
 
Brit: When Major worked that running bird that day, I was all lit up. And my buddy, the owner of a lab, didn't have a clue as to the great dog work he has just witnessed. It was awesome. I still miss Major, but we have a new pup, Max. He'll be 10 weeks this Friday.
 
since I'm on a farm here in pheasant country and bred my female- started my two pups in pheasants real young with an adult

they are now just shy of 2 years old- each has a bit different way of handling pheasants- but they run big and find and lock up- yet to see either move from the point- wouldn't care if they did if that bird was moving- but what I've seen- they catch and pin the bird- bird is frozen/dog is frozen

think they learned to get up close and freeze the bird- from seeing their dad do it- really aren't seeing pheasants move from the surprise find and lock up by the Britt- think it's a stare down-

each of mine when locked up you can pretty much blow the bird up, take the head off, or let it get out there aways to see a nice drop and retrieve

actually- it's sort of best to see an experienced good pheasant pointing dog handling the birds- then decide if you think you need to change things- to suit you

I have always circled and came in facing the dog- I watch the eyes- never come up from behind and alongside a frozen pointed dog on pheasants- just makes for an excuse for the pheasant to sneak off

plus- during the season- any wounded pheasant will take a pointing dog and the one behind it for a long tense point and relocate all over the country- you come in facing the dog and watching the eyes- you get the bird- because you signal your dog to go get because it will not fly-
 
JMc said:
D: All the Above. I think conditions warrant different styles of hunting for a well trained GSP. I have experience great points within 10 feet and up to 40 feet. I have also had them in a snow pack standing right on top of a bird...funniest thing I've ever seen. Imagine a hunting dog that finds his prey beneath his feet. Baffled the crap out of him but he did not move. He started to jump up and down with his front feet. Funny as heck.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it...
Click to expand...

Give that man from Texas a cigar. Wild birds are where you find them not necessarily where you want them to be. My preference is not for a machine that indicates the presence of a game bird by ceasing movement and raising it's head, tail and one forepaw. My preference is for a bird dog with brains, guts, desire and personality. This past season one of my setters pointed a pheasant with her head so high I thought she was just stopping and raising her head to look up above the grass. She was so intent on stretching up as high as possible to get that scent she was in an extremely unorthodox stance for a point. Later the same day she pointed and relocated three times on a rooster in an area the size of the free throw lane on a basketball court before she finally pinned him down. I have been richly blessed to hunt with dogs who have great noses. I don't mind them hitting scent from a distance and then moving up before establishing that solid point. I like every point to be different with the dog responding to the situation as it happens rather than an automated predetermined pose.
 
You got it, Gun Dog. Each bird handled is an experience in itself and it's so much fun to watch the dogs work and handle the birds. It's one of those things that people who don't know dogs, don't know hunting with good pointing dogs, just don't know what they're missing. It's the reason why I enjoy bird hunting with my dog; the team work between me and dog, watching the dog's intelligence and instincts take over when in the field.
 
Heres a video of my Brit her first year of summer camp in S. Dakota. In this video she was 14 months old, and had been trained on wild birds for 2 months. We just dropped her off for her third summer of camp. She spends a lot of time on the Brittany trial circuit, and I also foot hunt her. I want a dog that learns how to track, and pin birds down. Flash pointing dogs are great, but I want a dog who knows there is a bird in front of them as well ( you won't get as many false points). A pointing dog who can track and pin a wild pheasant is truely an amazing thing. Unfortunatly, it takes hundreds of wild birds for a[ dog to learn this. IMG]<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6eNwQaT7xnU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/IMG]
 
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