Backyard breeding gone wrong

The thread about the price of Lab puppies on the Main Forum got closed while I was away visiting family for Christmas, so I just wanted to offer up one example of backyard breeding gone haywire. And this one wasn't even profit-motivated.

About 20 years ago, a very good friend of mine bought a well-bred puppy from a highly reputable breeder of hunting Labs. He paid $600 or $700 back then and got way more than his money's worth as the dog turned out to be everything he could've hoped for.

When that dog was about 8, my buddy figured he'd just save a few bucks on his next dog by producing the next generation from that one and a beautiful, nearly white bitch owned by a guy in the same small town where we grew up. The female did not hunt, and nobody had any idea as to its lineage. It was a good-looking dog, and it was readily available.

The male he picked from that litter was a fine family dog and okay in the field, but only about half the hunter that its sire was.

Now, instead of stopping there, he breeds that dog (which he's not thrilled with in the first place) to a nice-looking bitch owned by his (my friend's) non-hunting brother. He takes a female from that litter. That dog doesn't hunt worth a tinker's damn, wants to fight every other female dog it encounters and has all kinds of health issues, including diabetes at age 4.

I just saw him on my recent trip. He's giving up the dog-breeding gig for good, but his experimentation has cost him dearly both in terms of money (which he originally thought he was going to save) and heartache.

On the flip side, just a half-hour down the road from where I live now is a nationally known kennel that's been producing hunting Labs for 40 years. His prices for puppies start at $1,200 and every single one is sold before it's ready to leave its mother's teets, and all are backed by a full guarantee of buyer satisfaction.

Excuse the car analogy, but these dogs are Cadillacs, Ferraris, BMWs or whatever. They're genetically engineered, on both sides of their family tree, to be precisely what my friend was looking for. A "lemon" may turn up now and again, but they're rare, and when it happens the breeder will buy the dog back.

If my buddy had bought his second and third dogs from that guy or someone like him, there's about a 99-percent probability that he'd have been happier and his bank account would've been fatter. He knows that now, but he paid a high price to learn it.
 
The thread about the price of Lab puppies on the Main Forum got closed while I was away visiting family for Christmas, so I just wanted to offer up one example of backyard breeding gone haywire. And this one wasn't even profit-motivated.

About 20 years ago, a very good friend of mine bought a well-bred puppy from a highly reputable breeder of hunting Labs. He paid $600 or $700 back then and got way more than his money's worth as the dog turned out to be everything he could've hoped for.

When that dog was about 8, my buddy figured he'd just save a few bucks on his next dog by producing the next generation from that one and a beautiful, nearly white bitch owned by a guy in the same small town where we grew up. The female did not hunt, and nobody had any idea as to its lineage. It was a good-looking dog, and it was readily available.

The male he picked from that litter was a fine family dog and okay in the field, but only about half the hunter that its sire was.

Now, instead of stopping there, he breeds that dog (which he's not thrilled with in the first place) to a nice-looking bitch owned by his (my friend's) non-hunting brother. He takes a female from that litter. That dog doesn't hunt worth a tinker's damn, wants to fight every other female dog it encounters and has all kinds of health issues, including diabetes at age 4.

I just saw him on my recent trip. He's giving up the dog-breeding gig for good, but his experimentation has cost him dearly both in terms of money (which he originally thought he was going to save) and heartache.

On the flip side, just a half-hour down the road from where I live now is a nationally known kennel that's been producing hunting Labs for 40 years. His prices for puppies start at $1,200 and every single one is sold before it's ready to leave its mother's teets, and all are backed by a full guarantee of buyer satisfaction.

Excuse the car analogy, but these dogs are Cadillacs, Ferraris, BMWs or whatever. They're genetically engineered, on both sides of their family tree, to be precisely what my friend was looking for. A "lemon" may turn up now and again, but they're rare, and when it happens the breeder will buy the dog back.

If my buddy had bought his second and third dogs from that guy or someone like him, there's about a 99-percent probability that he'd have been happier and his bank account would've been fatter. He knows that now, but he paid a high price to learn it.

And the problem doesn't end there. Because of this he has sent out another 15 or so messes for others to deal with. Many of these dogs end up mistreated, or in shelters, because of there bad behavior. My niece and nephew did the same thing many years ago. I did take one of their dogs. Through much effort he turned out to be a decent hunter. Unfortunately he had many health problems and died when he was seven.
 
I just got the xrays back on a well breed female I have about $3,000 invested in. The x-rays are not good and I will not be breeding her. She's hunting fine and crazy about retrieving at under two years. Puts my breeding program back two years, but that's the way it is.
 
When buying hunting dogs pedigree means everything !!!! A lot of backyard breeders putting out Lab pups that make fine pets BUT if you want a top notch hunting dog spend the $$$$ and be HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY !!!!
 
When buying hunting dogs pedigree means everything !!!! A lot of backyard breeders putting out Lab pups that make fine pets BUT if you want a top notch hunting dog spend the $$$$ and be HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY !!!!

I have to disagree with this statement, I have a dog named Rosco, all he has in his pedigree 4 back is one SH dog, He is 11 now but in his prime he could hunt upland (not a boot licker by any means), Ducks, Geese, whatever with a passion that i dont see a whole lot, eager to learn, a superior nose, and a personality to match, He now is a HRCH, SH, in his titles,

His offspring produce the same,

Not saying the Ped is not important, but the hunting in the blood that is passed on is very important, in both the male and female.

I have helped train a few dogs with no pedigree to speak of, and with proper bird presentation, excitement, and not a over abundance of control, you can make a very good bird dog, just my opinion though....
 
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ditchparrot19, excellent post and exactly what I try to preach. "Leave the breeding up to the pros". Some guys need to get over the idea that they just have to have a pup out of their dog.
 
I agree guys, but one question, "What is a pro?" Is it someone who charges a lot for their pups? I am not a pro, nor am I a backyard breeder, but I do raise quality Golden Retrievers to sell. They do come with a health guarantee, they do not come cheap, but less expensive than the fluffy ones. They also are carefully picked breedings to produce top quality hunting dogs. But I still don't consider myself a pro. Although I have raised 4 different litters and I think all of my buyers would come back and buy again. I guess what I am saying is that you probably need to look at the parents of the litter, check their health certificates, make sure it is what fits your family. I always try to help the family pick the best dog for their situation. I do know the litter better than someone who shows up a few times and looks at puppies. I have seen some pro's try to sell inferior dogs to make a buck!
By all means, don't buy a dog unless you are prepared to care for it as long as it lives.
 
I agree guys, but one question, "What is a pro?" Is it someone who charges a lot for their pups? I am not a pro, nor am I a backyard breeder, but I do raise quality Golden Retrievers to sell. They do come with a health guarantee, they do not come cheap, but less expensive than the fluffy ones. They also are carefully picked breedings to produce top quality hunting dogs. But I still don't consider myself a pro. Although I have raised 4 different litters and I think all of my buyers would come back and buy again. I guess what I am saying is that you probably need to look at the parents of the litter, check their health certificates, make sure it is what fits your family. I always try to help the family pick the best dog for their situation. I do know the litter better than someone who shows up a few times and looks at puppies. I have seen some pro's try to sell inferior dogs to make a buck!
By all means, don't buy a dog unless you are prepared to care for it as long as it lives.

I use Pro as a general term. When I say Pro I am referring to a breeder that is truly breeding to better the breed. One that is breeding for all the right qualities like temperament, bird drive, coat, hips, etc. The real Pro won't breed an inferior dog or one that does not meet his/her standards. Look back a couple posts to the one by Uncle Buck. He has a good dog, good pedigree, etc. but the dogs hips are questionable so he will not breed that dog. I'm sure everyone has their own definition of a Pro but this is briefly what I think they are or should be.
 
I use Pro as a general term. When I say Pro I am referring to a breeder that is truly breeding to better the breed. One that is breeding for all the right qualities like temperament, bird drive, coat, hips, etc. The real Pro won't breed an inferior dog or one that does not meet his/her standards. Look back a couple posts to the one by Uncle Buck. He has a good dog, good pedigree, etc. but the dogs hips are questionable so he will not breed that dog. I'm sure everyone has their own definition of a Pro but this is briefly what I think they are or should be.

I agree. I think many people don't educate themselves on the OFA certification on a dogs hips, eyes, heart, elbows, etc. It takes a lot of money and time to get a dog ready for a breeding and if something along the way fails, some people aren't ready to start over and will cheat the system. Bottom line Zeb people have to do their homework! Good postings on this though.
 
I agree guys, but one question, "What is a pro?" Is it someone who charges a lot for their pups? I am not a pro, nor am I a backyard breeder, but I do raise quality Golden Retrievers to sell. They do come with a health guarantee, they do not come cheap, but less expensive than the fluffy ones. They also are carefully picked breedings to produce top quality hunting dogs. But I still don't consider myself a pro. Although I have raised 4 different litters and I think all of my buyers would come back and buy again. I guess what I am saying is that you probably need to look at the parents of the litter, check their health certificates, make sure it is what fits your family. I always try to help the family pick the best dog for their situation. I do know the litter better than someone who shows up a few times and looks at puppies. I have seen some pro's try to sell inferior dogs to make a buck!
By all means, don't buy a dog unless you are prepared to care for it as long as it lives.

For purposes of this discussion, based on what you've described above, I'd say you're a heck of a lot closer to being a pro than a BB.
 
I breed race horses, field trial bird dogs, and the reality is the same. Begin the equation by selecting a super bitch or mare. Mom has them, raises them, and her outlook will do more than 50% of the genetics. If you have the bitch, you can find the male, among a cornucopia of studs. A lot of them need her to to improve their line. Look up "LaToreinne", in the thoroughbred bloodhorse, or look up "Nell's Rambling On", in FDSB pointers. There tail female generations still go on winning stakes races, and All Age Trials today. You do need to do specific tests, to weed out genetic issues. As of course you have to give them the opportunity to succeed. They don't get better in the kennel!, regardless of the heritage. As Uncle Buck said, You can do it right, and still get nothing. It takes a devotee of the dog and the breed, for the sake of the breed, to stand fast. No Dog or Horse breeder got rich! The setbacks and money to go forward, are not off set from a $1500.00 pup. All us breeders believe it is Karma, that the best pup, has a defect we cannot dismiss, or gets killed on the highway, or something happens to them, and takes them away. I have been there with OFA, after 3 generations of good or better, cried like a baby. I don't know why we do it. The breeding is just probalities, give you a better option to get a decent dog, not necessarily a "great" dog, but there are some of those too. Original GSP pointers in Germany select by weight of pups, any below or above certain weight are culled, the maximum of 5 puppies are registered, after inspection by a Breed authority. Give cause to think, To me it is to "Unamerican", but they get a high percentage of solidly usable dogs.
 
Very good post from oldandnew ,I used wrong terms from early post, you can not get chicken salad from chicken sh*t, you can not get a Kentucky Derby winner by breeding a horse that runs like a mule, you can not get a great hunting dog if one of the parents can not, will not, hunt !! For dogs it does not have to be titles on paper BUT both parents need to be VERY GOOD hunting dogs to have a chance to get a great pup !!
 
I disagree you can make any dog want to hunt i had a blue heeler mutt and she hunted everybit as good as my purebred dogs so papers mean nothing nor does both parents being good hunters
 
I agree with you Gove County Britts. When I was 14 I had a redbone mix hound and the gsp that we had at the time helped me turn that hound into a bird dog. With it's nose it turned out to be a good bird dog.
 
I disagree you can make any dog want to hunt i had a blue heeler mutt and she hunted everybit as good as my purebred dogs so papers mean nothing nor does both parents being good hunters

And I disagree with this entire statement. Except the part about the blue heeler. Papers have something to do with the dog. Someone has tried to ensure that the dog(s) have been tested in one form or another in front of an unbaised person. Yes, there are plenty of good hunting dogs out there that arent "papered" but I wont be buying one. In the end though it all matters on what you want and what you consider a good hunting dog. Im guessing my idea of a good hunting dog is vastly different from yours and vice versa. And thats fine.
I guess though all of my dogs have come from breeders who have families, houses and backyards. All parents were campaigned, and carefully selected. Health tests have been done. So I dont know what you call it. Papers arent everything... But the mean something to me.
As an aside, Im sitting here looking at six puppies crawling around in an oops breeding. Both parents have been trialed and have won a lot. They both run and hunt. These wkll be extremely well bred dogs, but the most important thing is that they go to good happy homes. Ill guarantee they will be healthy. My greatest concern is that they go to good homes. Does that make me a backyard breeder? I dont know. But I can tell you the litters will be few and far between.
 
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I have seen spectacular litters born who were half pointer/half setter, and half pointer/half GSP. Both lines of both families, were deep in blue bloods, but that 1 1/2 half they were gone at lunch did the trick. Some of those girls don't let on! The boys are sly and waiting. It's us hunters who are clueless! I believe it's the hybrid vigor, that makes them stronger, but they were from excellent families, not linebred, but bird dogs to the core. Funny thing is they all lived long productive and disease free lives. We cried like a baby when we lost them. Sometimes the elements we strive for, nose, stride, edurance, point, are visited by infermity, allergies, accident prone, and sickness. I will accept the "blue heeler" as a bird dog, My uncle had a rat terrier that hunted all game, flushed birds, treed squirrels, brought rabbits around to the gun, and bayed too. Another friend had the best pheasant dog I have ever seen! a little unusual, he was a beagle, retrieved too. Despite our training regime and bird numbers, If we had a 100 blue heelers, and want to make a bird dog with all of them. We would succeed here and there, but a vast majority would be monotonously and tirelessly chasing cars on the highway, which what I see is their more usual habitat. Now if you have two Blue Heelers who were terrific bird dogs and selectively bred them to produce that like, you have something! But what I am not sure what, because you could start with a Brittany, and about 90% of those can and will hunt, in exposure train themselves, expect for nuiances, like maybe backing, and or retrieving, exceptively. The ones who won't, have been destroyed by bad handling. Obviously, we see that for making a bird dog, the 100 years and generations of background to acheive a goal, saves a lot of time and risk. But you know that, because you aren't breeding Blue Heelers as bird dogs, or infusing that into you mainstream birddogs either. So yes you can with Basenji's malamutes, greyhounds, et. al. But without in your lifetime producing dogs which will breed to type, and have a reasonable expectation that they will be birddogs. But Why?
 
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