12 vs 20

I just saw this tread and quail hound beat me to my punch. His post which is number 8 in this tread.
I was going to share that exact article.
I have had the discussion with others before about "ideal" shotgun loads.
More speed does not equate into a better pattern nor a better killing load.
If you have access to a chronograph the science is non disputable.
Thanks quail hound for sharing that information.
 
Call me crazy but I have jumped on the efficiency over power band wagon when it comes to shotgun loads. Here is an interesting read on the subject.

http://www.sidebysideshotgun.com/articles/balance_loads_article.html

I believe there is a lot of truth in this article. Why people think a 12 ga. always has more "POWER" than a 20 ga. or 16 ga. is questionable. The same size pellet coming out of a any gauge shotgun at the same velocity is going to have the same energy. I think in this case Energy = Power. In fact, wouldn't pellets from a 20 ga. at a velocity of 1,300 fps have more POWER than pellets from a 12 ga. at 1,200 fps. What you get with the larger gauge is more pellets and hopefully denser patterns. However, like the article states, when jamming large shot loads down a barrel there can be a significant number of deformed pellets which lessens the advantage of the larger gauge. When go to heavier loads generally the muzzle velocity falls off. So in effect, the heavier loads (being slower) actually have less POWER than the the lighter loads. Of course you must take into consideration the number of pellets striking the bird, etc. It gets complicated.

Here a good example: Back in the early 80's I only had a 12 ga. Remington 870 with a 28" full choke that shot 2 3/4" shells. I did a lot of patterning for turkey hunting shooting at the image of the turkey's head. I used 1 1/4 oz. loads and "baby magnum" 1 1/2 oz loads. Surprisingly, the 1 1/4 oz. loads patterned consistantly better with more hits in the head than the 1 1/2 oz. loads. And the 1 1/2 oz loads were slower. It has also been stated in various articles that high velocity loads can also blow patterns.

I think any 20 ga. 1 oz. load, 16 ga. 1 1/8 oz. load or 12 ga. 1 1/4 oz. load at a velcoity of 1,200 to 1,300 fps will be very sufficient in bringing down a rooster. More times than not, it's the shooters ability to center the pattern on the bird that really matters. Not the size of the gun or the shell in the gun.
 
When I use the word power when talking about shotguns it's killing power. More dense pattern of bigger shot translates to more killing power. Judging a shotguns "power" by individual pellets when there is hundreds is dull logic.
I can get faster loads in a 12 gauge too.

Attack my shooting ability if you must but if I want to kill birds some days I have to shoot good with heavy loads and I don't have a choice.

The OP might not hunt under these conditions and be fine with a 20 gauge and 1 ounce of 6's. I would be most the time. Somebody hunting good wild pheasant numbers can afford a few getting away.
 
No one is questioning your shooting ability. We all have days where it seems we can't miss a bird and days we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.
 
Never tried shooting a 16 ga. I don't see many shells for sale in a 16 ga. And 20 ga shells are a bit limited, except at Cabala's.
Yesterday I used 7.5 shell in my 20 ga, on rather large hen pheasants. I didn't get a clean kill on a few of the birds; nice to have a dog to help me out with cripples!

I think I get a better pattern with 7.5's but not as hard a kill...probably poor shooting, not the shell!!

Supply is not really an issue for 16 ga.. When I find the shells I want, I get enough. You've got to plan ahead for non-tox though. They are a bit harder to come by and the choices are not all that great. I'll buy this spring, non-tox., for next year.

I shoot granpa's Model 12 in 16ga and a Citori Feathrlight in 16ga.
 
According to the info in that link, wouldn't it be better to shoot targt loads instead of game loads? I haven't bought shells in a while, whats the price difference between the two?

I haven't bought shells in a while either so I do not know that part of your question.
You have an understanding of the article but what is not mentioned in the article is the effects of larger mass shot size.
So as far as shooting target loads instead of game loads. It depends.
Target loads normally use small shot while game loads will use larger shot.
Larger shot maintains more downrange energy then smaller shot. That is physics in action.
Same sized load in small shot contains more pellets then a larger shot sized load would.
If I am going to hunt birds on a cold day with a North wind blowing in heavy cover. Odds are the birds will be sitting tight and getting up close. So I would go with a small shot sized dense pattern load, open choke.

Long shots and I will have to sacrifice the dense pattern for heavier shot.
But keep in mind that if I take the idea of heavier shot and heavier shot loads I would solve both problems. Heavy loads equate to patterning issues.

So I guess if I could find a target load in #4 then sure, but most target loads are #7 1/2 or #8
 
No one is questioning your shooting ability. We all have days where it seems we can't miss a bird and days we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Like dogs, and boots everybody needs to find the best shotguns,choke,and shells for their conditions and their expectations.

12 gauge guns have their place some places.
 
Hunting upland birds I see no advantage shooting a 12 over a 16 or 20ga. Other than getting more exercise.

A 20ga is more than enough to handle pheasants. People have been killing pheasants at range with 20s and even 28s.

You have to match your shot size and choke to the situation you are hunting no matter what ga you are shooting.

I much preffer a 20ga over any other ga. I have been hunting with them exclusively for more than 30 years.

BTW, flushing dogs have their place, but you are missing out if you have never hunted behind a solid pointing dog.

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Look up the W.W. Greener book of standard shotgun loads, published around the turn of the century, includes everything from black powder to smokeless loads in astounding variety. By using square loads, patterns are accentuated, nominal velocity in these is around 1050-1200. This was before shot cups, but research at the time, indicated higher velocity tended to blow the wad through the pattern creating a hole in the middle. Lots of different "advancements" since, and I hesitate to use that term, fad might be better, we have gone from the oldtimers using gravel, rock salt, and chopped glass to thinking we know that as perfect round shot as we could make, was superior, to making sperichal shot with ridges, and diamond shot, to increase the payload. From shooting soft lead, only to go to harder lead and plating to hold shape, and back to soft shot because it imparts more shock to the target. Pattern kills, is the summary of the Greener book, pure and simple, velocity is a matter of learning the finer points of lead and swing technique, but any reasonable low velocity load will kill birds dead in the air out to 40 yards and beyond with it's retained energy, if the shooter does his part. In american pumps and doubles, it was the only way to save weight and bulk. 12 gauge throws a fuller pattern than a 20, more margin of error. I've sure shot a lot of birds with a twenty, and out quite a ways. If the gun fits I wouldn't feel undergunned in any upland situation imaginable. I now have discovered some english lightweight upland doubleguns that weigh 5.75 to 6.25 pounds in 12 gauge, mostly 2-21/2 inch chambers and open chokes, Have the advantages of the 12 gauge bore, with weight, balance, speed , and throw weight, ( 1 oz loads), of a 20. Even with all the advancements and modern science, the enthusiastic Victorians pretty much wrote the book on "shooting flying" and still have lessons to teach.
 
Lots of good advice and it really does boil down to personal preference. Whatever you decide, make sure (ideally beforehand) that the gun will fit you well. If you're not familiar with the topic, do an internet search to bone up and talk to a professional gunfitter. Depending on your build and dimensions, some brands will fit you better than others.

In Eastern Colorado I usually don't get a whole lot of birds to shoot at during a day. In SD, you can be more choosey with your shot selections. I have 20s and 12s and have hunted pheasants with both. I typically have used a 12 to maybe give me a little better chance of making a clean kill. If you're doing more walking than shooting it sure is nice to carry a lightweight 20 all day through the fields.

And now I have the perfect compromise:
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The Browning Cynergy Composite Feater 12GA 26" adjustable comb, interchangeable recoil pads 6lbs 7oz the same as my Citori 20GA

The Cynergy, 11 mo old pointing lab Parker, and I head out to Eastern CO tomorrow morning to try it out on wily ditch chickens.

Good luck with you gun hunting.
POL
 
that is a sweet looking gun-

both my 20's weigh 5lbs 8 ounces
Berretta AL2 and Citori Upland Special
 
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