Range-Pointing Dog

[V-John]

So please don't automatically assume a person can't control their dog because the dog is wearing an e-collar. There are other reasons a hunter might have one on his/her dog.

Agree. Just because YOU don't use ecollars, doesn't mean that those that DO use ecollars are wrong.

 

[Shadow]

please let me explain-

I grew up hunting behind my fathers well trained Golden Retriever-
got my first Golden pup when I was 15

moved to Kansas where old school very proud pointing dog fellas showed me what it was like to be in a field with 6-13 pointing dogs

I've seen some things since 1972

all I say is - you have a good pointing dog who handles and backs- it shouldn't need a shock collar-

agree- you run a shock collar for certain reasons- but you also have to respect that because I don't hunt mine with shock collars it's not so much to ask that you take your collar off for a days hunt with a dog or so who doesn't need one

good dogs should be real good with or without- don't you agree

so before you jump- would you hunt yours in a new area, possibly new bird, and leave your shock collar off- if you say no- how good are you and the dog compared to one who never hunts with a shock collar

 

[jetjockey]

please let me explain-

I grew up hunting behind my fathers well trained Golden Retriever-
got my first Golden pup when I was 15

moved to Kansas where old school very proud pointing dog fellas showed me what it was like to be in a field with 6-13 pointing dogs

I've seen some things since 1972

all I say is - you have a good pointing dog who handles and backs- it shouldn't need a shock collar-

agree- you run a shock collar for certain reasons- but you also have to respect that because I don't hunt mine with shock collars it's not so much to ask that you take your collar off for a days hunt with a dog or so who doesn't need one

good dogs should be real good with or without- don't you agree

so before you jump- would you hunt yours in a new area, possibly new bird, and leave your shock collar off- if you say no- how good are you and the dog compared to one who never hunts with a shock collar

Shadow, I bet your dog could use one a lot more then you think. You have to understand, a few of the guys on this board not only hunt, but they trial as well. AKC and AF trials require a dog to be at the top of its game and absolutely 100% steady on birds. They can't creep, bump birds, take a step, and must be 100% steady to wing and shot. They also have to look good doing it. 90% of the hunting dogs I have seen aren't trained to that level of steadyness. From what you said in earlier posts, yours aren't either. But then again, a good hunting dog to you, or me, might be totally different then a good hunting dog for a NSTRA guy. If you hunt a trial dog though, you can't let the dog make little mistakes if you want to be competitive in trials as well. The only way to do that is to be able to correct the mistakes and let the dog know when they make them. And the only way to do that is to be able to give a command, and be able to reinforce it. You simply can't do that without an ecollar in the field. E-collars have made training so much easier and faster. Before E-collars guys would have to do so much yardwork to get a dog 100% steady, that most dogs couldn't compete in adult stakes before they were 3 or 4 years old. Now days, its not uncommon to see a young dog competing in fully broke adult stakes at 18 months old. That adds several years to a dogs hunting, and trialing carreer. In a trial, a tiny mistake can cost a lot of money, E-collars minimize those mistakes. And a dog is always training, unless its in a brace against another dog for money. Whenever I hunt my dog, shes training.

 

[Shadow]

Shadow, I bet your dog could use one a lot more then you think. You have to understand, a few of the guys on this board not only hunt, but they trial as well. AKC and AF trials require a dog to be at the top of its game and absolutely 100% steady on birds. They can't creep, bump birds, take a step, and must be 100% steady to wing and shot. They also have to look good doing it. 90% of the hunting dogs I have seen aren't trained to that level of steadyness. From what you said in earlier posts, yours aren't either. But then again, a good hunting dog to you, or me, might be totally different then a good hunting dog for a NSTRA guy. If you hunt a trial dog though, you can't let the dog make little mistakes if you want to be competitive in trials as well. The only way to do that is to be able to correct the mistakes and let the dog know when they make them. And the only way to do that is to be able to give a command, and be able to reinforce it. You simply can't do that without an ecollar in the field. E-collars have made training so much easier and faster. Before E-collars guys would have to do so much yardwork to get a dog 100% steady, that most dogs couldn't compete in adult stakes before they were 3 or 4 years old. Now days, its not uncommon to see a young dog competing in fully broke adult stakes at 18 months old. That adds several years to a dogs hunting, and trialing carreer. In a trial, a tiny mistake can cost a lot of money, E-collars minimize those mistakes. And a dog is always training, unless its in a brace against another dog for money. Whenever I hunt my dog, shes training.

think you are quite right- the brother to my 2 youngsters has just placed 1st in open in NSTRA- the youngster has 8 points towards champion

I also hunted an AKC FC Britt with my dogs for 3 days- I know what a top dog is- I have alot of pictures of that hunt

just quite haven't seen the need to put a shock collar on my 4 Britt's- think they are pretty good on wild pheasants here- but I'd be willing to see a shock collored dog do better in the field with mine- might even convince me I need to get a shock collar

but- all things considered- you would run 2-4 of your trial dogs without shock collars in the same field with 2-4 of mine without- correct

 

[oldandnew]

Shadow, I bet your dog could use one a lot more then you think. You have to understand, a few of the guys on this board not only hunt, but they trial as well. AKC and AF trials require a dog to be at the top of its game and absolutely 100% steady on birds. They can't creep, bump birds, take a step, and must be 100% steady to wing and shot. They also have to look good doing it. 90% of the hunting dogs I have seen aren't trained to that level of steadyness. From what you said in earlier posts, yours aren't either. But then again, a good hunting dog to you, or me, might be totally different then a good hunting dog for a NSTRA guy. If you hunt a trial dog though, you can't let the dog make little mistakes if you want to be competitive in trials as well. The only way to do that is to be able to correct the mistakes and let the dog know when they make them. And the only way to do that is to be able to give a command, and be able to reinforce it. You simply can't do that without an ecollar in the field. E-collars have made training so much easier and faster. Before E-collars guys would have to do so much yardwork to get a dog 100% steady, that most dogs couldn't compete in adult stakes before they were 3 or 4 years old. Now days, its not uncommon to see a young dog competing in fully broke adult stakes at 18 months old. That adds several years to a dogs hunting, and trialing carreer. In a trial, a tiny mistake can cost a lot of money, E-collars minimize those mistakes. And a dog is always training, unless its in a brace against another dog for money. Whenever I hunt my dog, shes training.

Easier, Faster = short cut. I had open all age pointers, and horseback open shooting dogs for years. Never had a collar on them. My big complaint is that the collar becomes the easy answer to everything. If used incorrectly, and a very few amatuers or pros truly understand the process, the potential to do damage to a young dog is exagerated. There's a reason for puppy and derby stakes, and admittedly there is pressure to show a finished performance in derby stakes, but it results in a lot of collar spoiled dogs. To much pressure, to young. Field trialing and hunting have devolved into almost unrelated activities. As you say, when you are hunting, your trial training. When I'm hunting, I'm hunting, to put game in the pot, and enjoy some comraderie with my dogs and companions. My dogs need to be pretty strong on fundamentals, in the life immitating art example, trials are the art that immitates hunting. Purpose of the trial is to identify individuals which demonstrate propensity to carry on genetically traits which make superior hunting dogs. Hunting being the real world test of value. Along with these traits of search, point, nose, and style, maybe we should add biddability, intelligence, trainability, and conformation necessary to do the job. If a breed becomes such that all generations become fire breathing, runoff, bird busting hellions, that need to be ground down with log chains, or electric collars, maybe we should question what we are doing. Put another way, if an average backyard amatuer, can't train a dog to perform to a respectable standard, and is as a matter of course, forced to go to a pro to solve problems, or do our training for us , we need to evaluate our breeding and trial standards. I can stop my dogs at the road, whoa and recall them in the presence of snakes,(never had one bit), they all back, and they are all staunch, didn't happen at 18 months either, but they hunt for me, range as big as the country allows, and are a pleasure to be around. Trials are a dog shows, a subjective and sometimes bias opinion of two men on any given day, a pleasant diversion in the off season, with less and less pertinence to upland bird hunting.

 

[Shadow]

Easier, Faster = short cut. I had open all age pointers, and horseback open shooting dogs for years. Never had a collar on them. My big complaint is that the collar becomes the easy answer to everything. If used incorrectly, and a very few amatuers or pros truly understand the process, the potential to do damage to a young dog is exagerated. There's a reason for puppy and derby stakes, and admittedly there is pressure to show a finished performance in derby stakes, but it results in a lot of collar spoiled dogs. To much pressure, to young. Field trialing and hunting have devolved into almost unrelated activities. As you say, when you are hunting, your trial training. When I'm hunting, I'm hunting, to put game in the pot, and enjoy some comraderie with my dogs and companions. My dogs need to be pretty strong on fundamentals, in the life immitating art example, trials are the art that immitates hunting. Purpose of the trial is to identify individuals which demonstrate propensity to carry on genetically traits which make superior hunting dogs. Hunting being the real world test of value. Along with these traits of search, point, nose, and style, maybe we should add biddability, intelligence, trainability, and conformation necessary to do the job. If a breed becomes such that all generations become fire breathing, runoff, bird busting hellions, that need to be ground down with log chains, or electric collars, maybe we should question what we are doing. Put another way, if an average backyard amatuer, can't train a dog to perform to a respectable standard, and is as a matter of course, forced to go to a pro to solve problems, or do our training for us , we need to evaluate our breeding and trial standards. I can stop my dogs at the road, whoa and recall them in the presence of snakes,(never had one bit), they all back, and they are all staunch, didn't happen at 18 months either, but they hunt for me, range as big as the country allows, and are a pleasure to be around. Trials are a dog shows, a subjective and sometimes bias opinion of two men on any given day, a pleasant diversion in the off season, with less and less pertinence to upland bird hunting.

here here- wel said

 

[jetjockey]

Easier, Faster = short cut. I had open all age pointers, and horseback open shooting dogs for years. Never had a collar on them. My big complaint is that the collar becomes the easy answer to everything. If used incorrectly, and a very few amatuers or pros truly understand the process, the potential to do damage to a young dog is exagerated. There's a reason for puppy and derby stakes, and admittedly there is pressure to show a finished performance in derby stakes, but it results in a lot of collar spoiled dogs. To much pressure, to young. Field trialing and hunting have devolved into almost unrelated activities. As you say, when you are hunting, your trial training. When I'm hunting, I'm hunting, to put game in the pot, and enjoy some comraderie with my dogs and companions. My dogs need to be pretty strong on fundamentals, in the life immitating art example, trials are the art that immitates hunting. Purpose of the trial is to identify individuals which demonstrate propensity to carry on genetically traits which make superior hunting dogs. Hunting being the real world test of value. Along with these traits of search, point, nose, and style, maybe we should add biddability, intelligence, trainability, and conformation necessary to do the job. If a breed becomes such that all generations become fire breathing, runoff, bird busting hellions, that need to be ground down with log chains, or electric collars, maybe we should question what we are doing. Put another way, if an average backyard amatuer, can't train a dog to perform to a respectable standard, and is as a matter of course, forced to go to a pro to solve problems, or do our training for us , we need to evaluate our breeding and trial standards. I can stop my dogs at the road, whoa and recall them in the presence of snakes,(never had one bit), they all back, and they are all staunch, didn't happen at 18 months either, but they hunt for me, range as big as the country allows, and are a pleasure to be around. Trials are a dog shows, a subjective and sometimes bias opinion of two men on any given day, a pleasant diversion in the off season, with less and less pertinence to upland bird hunting.

You are correct on a lot of your points. But don't forget that in the old days, it was much more accepted to beat the hell out of your dog to get results as well. Don't believe me? Read many of the old time training books. Heck, I saw that when I was young when my dad sent his dog for a little training. He yanked the dog after the second session.. In the beginning, I think there were a lot of dogs ruined because of e-collars, but I think your seeing less and less of it nowdays because trainers have begun to understand how to use the e-collars properly. In the old days guys beat the hell out of there dogs to get results, and they also shocked the hell out of them when e-collars came out. When people refer to e-collars as "shock collars" I usually suspect that they don't understand what an e-collar really is. I can tell you that my brittany absolutely loves her e-collar. There are three things that will make her go absolutely nuts. When she sees my shotgun case, my orange hunting vest, or her gps and e-collar boxes. When she sees any of those she goes absoultely crazy.... I hunt my dog a lot, but I still expect her to be nearly perfect on birds. If she doesn't stop to flush, or doesn't hold point all the way to wing, shot, and fall, I correct her. Hunting isn't a time for her to screw off and act however she wants. IMO E-collars aren't shortcuts, they are a much more humane, and better way of training. If you can get the same results in half the amount of time, its a great thing. Especially when your talking a dog that has a relatively short amount of years to hunt.

Shadow. Just out of curiosity, what's the name of the AKC FC brit you hunted over, or the last name of the owner? Feel free to PM me. Id like to look it up on the Remek Viszla's site. Believe me, there is a big difference between FC's in the brittany world. Its probably the biggest point of contention and the biggest reason for the politics that comes from people wanting a "dual" brittany. Not all FC's are created equal.. Not even close.

 

[beaglebob1]

Easier, Faster = short cut. I had open all age pointers, and horseback open shooting dogs for years. Never had a collar on them. My big complaint is that the collar becomes the easy answer to everything. If used incorrectly, and a very few amatuers or pros truly understand the process, the potential to do damage to a young dog is exagerated. There's a reason for puppy and derby stakes, and admittedly there is pressure to show a finished performance in derby stakes, but it results in a lot of collar spoiled dogs. To much pressure, to young. Field trialing and hunting have devolved into almost unrelated activities. As you say, when you are hunting, your trial training. When I'm hunting, I'm hunting, to put game in the pot, and enjoy some comraderie with my dogs and companions. My dogs need to be pretty strong on fundamentals, in the life immitating art example, trials are the art that immitates hunting. Purpose of the trial is to identify individuals which demonstrate propensity to carry on genetically traits which make superior hunting dogs. Hunting being the real world test of value. Along with these traits of search, point, nose, and style, maybe we should add biddability, intelligence, trainability, and conformation necessary to do the job. If a breed becomes such that all generations become fire breathing, runoff, bird busting hellions, that need to be ground down with log chains, or electric collars, maybe we should question what we are doing. Put another way, if an average backyard amatuer, can't train a dog to perform to a respectable standard, and is as a matter of course, forced to go to a pro to solve problems, or do our training for us , we need to evaluate our breeding and trial standards. I can stop my dogs at the road, whoa and recall them in the presence of snakes,(never had one bit), they all back, and they are all staunch, didn't happen at 18 months either, but they hunt for me, range as big as the country allows, and are a pleasure to be around. Trials are a dog shows, a subjective and sometimes bias opinion of two men on any given day, a pleasant diversion in the off season, with less and less pertinence to upland bird hunting.[/QUOTE


key is using the ecollar correctly. my dogs are 9 months old or older before i break them out and been through a lot of drills and birds before hand. the key is setting stimulation to where the animal just turns his head and dont over use the collar. every dog will have a different setting. you need to be close and give voice comands at the sametime. they are a big tool in my training process along with remote launchers and auto backers to blank guns. they really help with teaching a dog to whoa and back. well bred and trained animal can be controlled on its range according to terrian and target bird by the handler. my 2 pennys..:thumbsup:

 

[Shadow]

jetjockey- Bill Burton

I'd really like to spend a day in a field with someone who has AKC or AF FC dog if they'll leave the shock collars in the vehicle

you point it out "shock collars" not e collars- and anyone who uses the term-

so- ecollar- take the prongs off- since you aren't going to juice the dog when it isn't perfect- sorry- I have never required any of my dogs to be perfect in the field- always have been willing to put mine down with the best of the best- as long as no "ecollar" on any dog

quite simple- no "ecollars"- really would enjoy watching an AKC or AF FC in these fields here with one of my Britt's

 

[Shadow]

Agree. Just because YOU don't use ecollars, doesn't mean that those that DO use ecollars are wrong.

never said otherwise-but take that ecollar off- and it's kind of obvious if one has a good dog or not

I'll meet you for a PC hunt- you put 2 down I'll put 2 down- no "ecollars" you want to put 3 down I'll put 3 down

 

[jetjockey]

Shadow. The no e-collar vs e-collar arguement really is pointess. In trials, dogs cant run with a collar. So you know those dogs handle just fine without a collar, and they handle their birds to near perfection. I can put my dog down all day long without a collar, and she handles perfectly fine. If a dog is properly conditioned to the collar and it is used correctly, then it doesn't really matter if the dog wears it or not, as long as the handler doesn't teach the dog to be collar wise. Id gladely put my dog down without a collar in a new environment. She's done it twice in the last week and will do it tomorrow, and 2 more times in the next week while running trials... Have you ever tried an e-collar? Put it on a level one and squeeze the prongs as tight as possible and pull the trigger. Id be willing to bet you don't feel a thing, or feel very, very little. Properly used an e-collar will rarely "shock" your dog. Thats why they use the word "stimulation" rather then "shock", when refering to using the colar. My dog rarely takes more then a level 1 stimulation if she does something wrong. Trust me, she can barely feel a level 1. Heck, she usually doesn't start to twitch until you use a level 2 low or level 2.

What dog did you hunt over? According to the Remek site, it looks like B Burton had two pretty nice Brits that were FC's. One placed in its last trial in 2004 and 1 ran its last trial in 2009. Both looked like they did relatively well in AA trials.

 

[Shadow]

Shadow, I don't need e-collars on my dogs either when it comes to controlling them. However, I do put e-collars on them most of the time mainly as a safety measure. My concern is that a dog gets on or close to a road with traffic coming. I can get them back with the whistle but just in case the conditions might be such that the dog can't hear me I have the e-collar to stop them. I know, might never happen, but I rather have the dog wearing that collar than being a dead dog. Another reason they will be wearing collars this year is the fact I finally got beeper collars so I can find them on point in the heavy cover.

So please don't automatically assume a person can't control their dog because the dog is wearing an e-collar. There are other reasons a hunter might have one on his/her dog.

sorry- I didn't assume- you have superb Britt's- wish others wouldn't be so mad at me when I say a real good dog doesn't need a shock collar-
I don't have a shock collar- maybe I'm hard headed- these Britt's of mine have done quite well without being shocked

 

[beaglebob1]

sorry- I didn't assume- you have superb Britt's- wish others wouldn't be so mad at me when I say a real good dog doesn't need a shock collar-
I don't have a shock collar- maybe I'm hard headed- these Britt's of mine have done quite well without being shocked

WE ONLY USE THEM FOR TRAINING REINFORCEMENT. GREAT TOOL IN THE RIGHT HANDS...IF YOU HAVE NO EXPERIANCE WITH THEM BY ALL MEANS DO NOT USE THEM.. LEAVE THE SCALPEL TO THE SURGEON..:cheers:

 

[SetterNut]

OldandNew

There are people that don't know what they are doing with and E-collar. and ruin dogs.

But in the old day you had guys ruin dogs by beating the crap out of them or shooting them at a distance with bird shot. I know that you are old enough to have seen that.

The e-collar has eliminated that BS of beating and shooting dogs.

Shadow, I don't understand why if you were to hunt with someone you don't want their dog to have an e-collar on? That would be like some really old timer telling you that you dogs are inferior because you hunt them with an Astro on. They would tell you that "you can't keep track of your dog without it." We both know that is not true, we could hunt without the Astro, but it is foolish not to, same in many peoples case with the e-collar.

I hunt Ace with an Astro, and and e-collar on. They are tools that I use. I almost never use the e-collar when hunting. But I did have a situation hunting and unfamiliar WIHA last season where I came over a hill to find Ace getting way to close to a road that I didn't think was that close. It was really windy and the only way I could stop him was with a nick from the collar. This is not something that hurts him. It is no more an issue to him than a tap on the head to release him. I put it on myself many times to make sure it is working correctly.

 

[beaglebob1]

OldandNew

There are people that don't know what they are doing with and E-collar. and ruin dogs.

But in the old day you had guys ruin dogs by beating the crap out of them or shooting them at a distance with bird shot. I know that you are old enough to have seen that.

The e-collar has eliminated that BS of beating and shooting dogs.

Shadow, I don't understand why if you were to hunt with someone you don't want their dog to have an e-collar on? That would be like some really old timer telling you that you dogs are inferior because you hunt them with an Astro on. They would tell you that "you can't keep track of your dog without it." We both know that is not true, we could hunt without the Astro, but it is foolish not to, same in many peoples case with the e-collar.

I hunt Ace with an Astro, and and e-collar on. They are tools that I use. I almost never use the e-collar when hunting. But I did have a situation hunting and unfamiliar WIHA last season where I came over a hill to find Ace getting way to close to a road that I didn't think was that close. It was really windy and the only way I could stop him was with a nick from the collar. This is not something that hurts him. It is no more an issue to him than a tap on the head to release him. I put it on myself many times to make sure it is working correctly.

SPOT ON..:thumbsup::10sign:

 

[Shadow]

What dog did you hunt over? According to the Remek site, it looks like B Burton had two pretty nice Brits that were FC's. One placed in its last trial in 2004 and 1 ran its last trial in 2009. Both looked like they did relatively well in AA trials.

now you want me to list the dog that I took on a 3 day hunt-hum
surfice it to say- I know AKC FC dogs- they are a hard dog to hunt
my experience- I ran my pup in AKC puppy trials- YIKES- I didn't think I could hunt her on quail- so my goal was- to keep her inside 1/4 mile- that has been my standards ever since-

sorry- ever since then I want mine inside 1/4 mile- and always enjoy hunting with a top dog that runs real big- as in Texas real big- always have enjoyed putting a couple of mine down with big running dogs- turn your big runner loose without a shock collar- I'll pay attention to mine who stay within 1/4 mile

like I say- would really enjoy being in a field with 2 of mine and 2 FC dogs- BUT- no shock collars to keep them in- you game

 

[Dakotazeb]

please let me explain-

I grew up hunting behind my fathers well trained Golden Retriever-
got my first Golden pup when I was 15

moved to Kansas where old school very proud pointing dog fellas showed me what it was like to be in a field with 6-13 pointing dogs

I've seen some things since 1972

all I say is - you have a good pointing dog who handles and backs- it shouldn't need a shock collar-

agree- you run a shock collar for certain reasons- but you also have to respect that because I don't hunt mine with shock collars it's not so much to ask that you take your collar off for a days hunt with a dog or so who doesn't need one

good dogs should be real good with or without- don't you agree

so before you jump- would you hunt yours in a new area, possibly new bird, and leave your shock collar off- if you say no- how good are you and the dog compared to one who never hunts with a shock collar

Shadow, I guess you have your beliefs and I respect that. I don't agree with you and don't understand why you wouldn't hunt with someone just because their dog has an e-collar on. I agree a dog should be trained so they are obedient in the field and wouldn't need an e-collar. But no dog is perfect and if the dog is properly trained with an e-collar it can be a great tool for training the dog in the field or re-enforcing your training.

When I run NSTRA trials you cannot use e-collars. My dog is steady on point, backs like a champ and obeys my whistle commands always. Same in the field. So do I need an e-collar, heck no. But I do have one on my dog a lot of the times for the reasons I stated in my previous post. I'd hate to think anyone would not hunt with my dog just because she is wearing an e-collar. It has nothing to do with the level of training, it's simply owner preference.

 

[OKIEGunner]

Shadow, I guess you have your beliefs and I respect that. I don't agree with you and don't understand why you wouldn't hunt with someone just because their dog has an e-collar on. I agree a dog should be trained so they are obedient in the field and wouldn't need an e-collar. But no dog is perfect and if the dog is properly trained with an e-collar it can be a great tool for training the dog in the field or re-enforcing your training.

When I run NSTRA trials you cannot use e-collars. My dog is steady on point, backs like a champ and obeys my whistle commands always. Same in the field. So do I need an e-collar, heck no. But I do have one on my dog a lot of the times for the reasons I stated in my previous post. I'd hate to think anyone would not hunt with my dog just because she is wearing an e-collar. It has nothing to do with the level of training, it's simply owner preference.

Agree 100%

 

[Shadow]

Shadow, I don't understand why if you were to hunt with someone you don't want their dog to have an e-collar on? That would be like some really old timer telling you that you dogs are inferior because you hunt them with an Astro on. They would tell you that "you can't keep track of your dog without it." We both know that is not true, we could hunt without the Astro, but it is foolish not to, same in many peoples case with the e-collar.

I hunt Ace with an Astro, and and e-collar on. They are tools that I use. I almost never use the e-collar when hunting. But I did have a situation hunting and unfamiliar WIHA last season where I came over a hill to find Ace getting way to close to a road that I didn't think was that close. It was really windy and the only way I could stop him was with a nick from the collar. This is not something that hurts him. It is no more an issue to him than a tap on the head to release him. I put it on myself many times to make sure it is working correctly.

I understand- first- don't believe all the crap you think about folks in the 70's who had to beat their dogs to hunt, range, pay attention, handle, back, and retrieve- you weren't there- you didn't hunt with 5 guys who had 13 pointing dogs who ran them all together- it's easy now- strap on the shock collar- any dog will soon learn to obey

take your Garmin and your shock collar off- I'll not put the Garmin on my male- you want to come here and enjoy a day- you and Ace me and Shadow-

or- you and VJohn- we each run one dog with no Garmin, no shock collars- on PC's in the area you choose- the one with the best dog has to buy supper- the one with the poorest dog has to clean the birds and brush the dogs

 

[beaglebob1]

Shadow, I guess you have your beliefs and I respect that. I don't agree with you and don't understand why you wouldn't hunt with someone just because their dog has an e-collar on. I agree a dog should be trained so they are obedient in the field and wouldn't need an e-collar. But no dog is perfect and if the dog is properly trained with an e-collar it can be a great tool for training the dog in the field or re-enforcing your training.

When I run NSTRA trials you cannot use e-collars. My dog is steady on point, backs like a champ and obeys my whistle commands always. Same in the field. So do I need an e-collar, heck no. But I do have one on my dog a lot of the times for the reasons I stated in my previous post. I'd hate to think anyone would not hunt with my dog just because she is wearing an e-collar. It has nothing to do with the level of training, it's simply owner preference.

UFTA hunts are the same way, no ecollars. i am like junky , i have a 6 dog and 2 3 dog units...sick..