What Do You Guys Think?-Controversial Issue

B

BSH

New member
There are many sides to the "range" argument and wanted to get y'alls input.
We are talking about dogs hunting their first year, first wild birds.

A pro trainer told me recently that if a flushing dog is working a running bird and is running ahead to let the dog go ahead and flush the bird out of range, then call him back vs using an ecollar/whistle to call him off the bird before he flushes it. She told me that the pup will eventually understand that if he flushes a bird out of range, no bird, where as if he flushes a bird in gun range, usually he will get the bird, thus getting the retrieve.
Others argue to go ahead and call the dog off the runner and use whatever means necessary to do so (ie.- ecollar, check cord, etc.) in order to keep him within gun range no matter what.

What do you think? Thanks.
 
A pro trainer told me recently that if a flushing dog is working a running bird and is running ahead to let the dog go ahead and flush the bird out of range
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Personally I think this is bad advice. I feel the dog is going to develop a bad habit. I had Springers for 25 years and not a one of them ever learned that if they flush it out of range it's "no bird". It's maybe not as critical with a pointing dog (assuming the bird will eventually hold for a point) but a flusher needs to be trained to be called off a bird or you will have way too many birds flushing out of range. And probably some very unhappy hunting buddies.
 
Dakotazeb said:
Personally I think this is bad advice. I feel the dog is going to develop a bad habit. I had Springers for 25 years and not a one of them ever learned that if they flush it out of range it's "no bird". It's maybe not as critical with a pointing dog (assuming the bird will eventually hold for a point) but a flusher needs to be trained to be called off a bird or you will have way too many birds flushing out of range. And probably some very unhappy hunting buddies.
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I have a brittany that was never given any form of good training. I'd always put my young dogs behind the older dogs and they just figured it out. However, I have 1 brit that would rather flush birds than point them. She just wants to see the bird flush, and when it flushes out of range, she considers it a victory b/c she had fun. I don't think she'll ever relate the "no bird" thing to flushing them out of range (she's 10 years old now). I've always just tried to call her back, but it has never worked. She KNOWS how the whole point and retrieve thing is supposed to work, but she'd rather just chase the runners and flush them out the end. I recently purchased an e-collar. I think I'll go ahead and use it to influence her off of a running bird. Allowing her to chase a bird may be perceived by her as my condoning her running them out the end. I bought the collar b/c that ain't happening anymore! After you've introduced them to it properly, all you have to do is put it on and they do what they're supposed to.
 
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In my extensive experience (kidding - first gun dog - flushing lab 5 years old) I think that it is best to keep the dog in range whether on a bird or not. Trying to stop them on a runner, in my opinion, takes some training without birds to lay the groundwork. Especially with an e-collar, I suggest that you should condition the dog to whistle-sit to turn off the collar/avoid stimulation. THe reason I think that this is important is that you don't want the dog to learn the wrong thing - namely, that chasing pheasants "hurts". If you have layed the groundwork with whistle-sits in training situations then pup will understand e-collar corrections are as a result of not listening to your command, NOT that the pheasant somehow did this to her.
I don't know about pointers.
-Croc
 
All good points. I believe the same way most of you do. I have a one year old YLM, Trace. His first hunt was last week to Montana. Of three days worth of limits, there were only two instances where he flushed a bird out of range. The pro trainer who told me the advice, was actually one who trains pointing labs.

Croc-good point about the whistle sit, this is often overlooked by a lot of flushing dog hunters. My pup is whistle sit trained, and I used is quite a bit on last week. It was an awesome tool, especially in cover such as rice grass to allow me to sit him, walk to him, and release him again, rather than call him all the way back to me-which sometimes I did as well and then heel him for a few yards, the release him again.

Thanks for the replies. :cheers: Good lookin' dog Croc!
 
I think 2 things here. One never but never hit a dog working a bird with the e-collar. I have always been told they may just quit hunting birds altogether. The other is I am a firm believer in the "Whoa" command. If my dog is getting to far a head of me and I know he is on a bird. I will blow his whoa command on the whistle and have him wait for me to catch up. Then go after the bird together. I know we run the chance the bird will flush early of it own free will. But that is hunting to me..........Bob
 
I have had some problems with my super hard-charging lab getting out of range. Oftentimes, we are hunting thick crp where I sometimes can see only 10-15 yards ahead. I'll use my whistle often (tweeeeett, tweet,tweet come in whistle) if I sense he's ranging too far. In lighter cover where I can see him, I'll do the same but add a quck nick on the ecollar if he hesitates.

If he gives me the finger, I'll hit him with a longer nick.
Sit down whistle is good in light cover or a grain field.

Part of the hunt is dealing with runners. I often pick up my pace when I know pup's on a hot bird. That's part of the fun too.

lefty
 
I agree with Bob that the Whoa command is essential, but I want to add that I have a hup and a here command. The dogs will turn on hup and return on here. My GSP's actually stay pretty close. As young dogs they got onto a jackrabbit and "presto", the e-collar came to life. After a stearn warning and some corrective teaching, they understood not to chase. Thanks to gigantic new tractors and 1/2 mile long sprinklers, a pheasant can run a dog to death in the TX panhandle. And while the dog is chasing, those little devils are signaling all their friends to run to the end then fly out. Good for the blockers but bad for the walkers.
 
I agree that flushing birds out of range leads to bad habits than can be hard to break.

I don't own flushing breeds, but I would think the "HUP" command could be taught and reinforced for such a case. I'm with Bob on the "Whoa" command. HUP or whoa the dog to allow you to catch up then release. I've seen dogs whistle trained to Whoa which works well at a distance to stop a dog. As with steadying a dog these commands are taught away from birds then reinforced with the e-collar. This way there is no connection to birds and the dog will fully understand why it is being corrected for not complying.

With pointing breeds a running bird usually means a point and relocate game. I will always allow the dog to relocate on it's own, and will never shoot a bird that the dog purposely takes out. If you know your dog you can read it's body language and know whether your dealing with a runner or not.

JMHO
 
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Unfortunately, only you can determine the "appropriate" range for your hunting; whatever distance that may be, be consistent in the way you correct your dog - voice, whistle, e-collar - they all work
Bob - "just quit hunting birds altogether." I have one of those dogs - years back, in haste to get into a field, my former partner grabbed a controller off the tailgate - long story short, my four year old gsp yelped and headed to the truck, never to hunt again - I mean never! I will never forgive myself for ruining my dog.
I have a beautiful gsp that won't even consider chasing a bird anymore
 
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Nothing wrong with a young dog it's first year putting up birds out of range, have a couple birds of some kind pigeons or dead pheasants and when you call him back after a miss toss it in the air so he finds birds close. Call him in when hunting and throw a pigeon in once and a while right in front of you so he flushes birds close. Make him think you know where the birds are. If he gets alot of birds close he will start hunting closer. If he keeps it up quit hunting wild birds and roll in clips and flyers close in a structured manner only for awhile. He wont be as likely to punch down the field all the time. Just dont let him see you throw them in.
 
I will try to keep this as short as possible. In 1962, I had a very nice GSP. He came into the age where he could hunt the fall season with me. I lived in Minnesota at the time and we were hunting near a lake. "Mike" the GSP went on point close to the shore. Unknown to me and my fellow hunters, there were some duck hunters on the lake. They were chasing down a cripple and tried to shoot it on the water. Mike got hit by the shot and had shot lodged in his ear, on the side closest to the lake. He yelped and cried and I ran to him, only to see the bloody ear. I rushed him to the nearest Vet. He took out the shot. When Mike healed, I took him hunting again, but all he would point was mice, frogs, meadowlarks and things that were non-game birds. We tried several trips with him along and he never really hunted game birds again. I talked with many Pro-Trainers about him at this time. They all said the same thing, "sorry nothing can be done with him." After this experience, I will never punish a dog in the field. I will scold them verbally. But no rough stuff at all. Mike was my last GSP, I went to Brittany's then and have had them ever since.......Bob
 
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Hmm, what an interesting thread. I have learned more in the last week since I found this website that years on other websites. I would like to comment on the thought provoking, respectfully written, responses and the years of experience that seem to be present here. Thanks..Q..
 
FCSpringer said:
Nothing wrong with a young dog it's first year putting up birds out of range, have a couple birds of some kind pigeons or dead pheasants and when you call him back after a miss toss it in the air so he finds birds close. Call him in when hunting and throw a pigeon in once and a while right in front of you so he flushes birds close. Make him think you know where the birds are. If he gets alot of birds close he will start hunting closer. If he keeps it up quit hunting wild birds and roll in clips and flyers close in a structured manner only for awhile. He wont be as likely to punch down the field all the time. Just dont let him see you throw them in.
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I agree w/ this completely. I've got a few rules that I follow that have served me well in this regard: 1) Never punish a dog when he's got birds on his mind. 2) Never punish when he's in water. 3) Never punish when he's beside me or coming in to me.

If you stick to those rules, you will avoid creating most of the problems that will wash out a dog.
 
I wanted to add that a flusher needs to learn to trail a bird well so letting them just run birds out is good, It also helps the flush. let them do it for a while no matter what. It builds thier confidence. If he is just running all over hunting way out for no reason that is when you can correct him. Later on the trailing out birds you can work in the hup ,sit or hup whistle (the best) stoping them till you catch up pat him up, give a quick "good boy" and cast them off again. You will be able to do this if you reinforce hup in the yard, once you get them to hup anywhere anytime at different distances on retrieves ect. you will be able to do it in the field later. But it works well to use a training clip wing first when you break them in. You put it down and let it run off. Wait a bit and cast the dog, Try to hup him right away with a check rope on, If he stops pat him up and let him go again. If not give him the rope and correct him.Repeat offten then depending on the dog you can later take off the cord and do it by staying close to him and being ready to correct him verbably or some with low level e collar. Once he is doing this well up close you can then transition it to the field. It is tricky and best left to the pro you know if you don't know what you are doing, because you have to watch what you are doing to the flush at the same time.
 
All great replies! A lot of good info. My brother and I were discussing this the other night. Just some more background, he trains pointers, I train retrievers (flushers). He is a firm believer that you must keep the dog in range by whatever means necessary. I tried somewhat to sway him, but he has trained that way his entire life. I believe that you must not punish the dog while he is in pursuit of birds, especially in their first year of hunting wild birds. I do train just like many of the above posts suggest. Use pressure for a whistle sit, hup, etc away from birds. That is a good idea Springer, what did you do, just tuck a couple away in your vest pocket? I like this idea! Good talk folks!

Best
 
Electricity

kansasbrittany said:
What about a pointing dog that is chasing a runner that just won't stop?
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An e-collar will stop that. Precede the shock with the "whoa" command. They learn quickly. Be careful with the amount of juice you dial in.
 
BritChaser said:
An e-collar will stop that. Precede the shock with the "whoa" command. They learn quickly. Be careful with the amount of juice you dial in.
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In my opinion, it is unfair to the dog to introduce a â??shockâ?� out of the blue without first teaching the dog how to turn it off. You may also get a response other than what you are hoping for (whoa in this case). The dog may associate the pain w/ birds and begin blinking them or he might simply bolt and run for the hills thus turning off the collar when he gets out of range.

My advice is to put the collar on the dog for a couple weeks each time you work w/ him but donâ??t turn it on. The dog will soon start to reach his neck out to help you put it on because he associates it w/ fun. This is how you avoid a collar wise dog.

The next step is to find what level of stimulation the dog can feel. This varies from dog to dog and has nothing to do w/ temperament. While the dog is wandering around give a â??nickâ?� on the lowest level while watching carefully for any response. It might be a flick of the ear or a quizzical look. If nothing, try it on level 2 and so on until you see just the slightest indication that the dog can feel something. This is the level you should use for the collar conditioning process.

Collar conditioning is the process of teaching the dog in the yard how to turn off the collar by offering a correct response. If you donâ??t go through this procedure, you greatly increase the risk of ruining your dogâ??s attitude toward birds or training. Put the dog on a long line, apply the continuous burn, and then say "whoa". Remove the burn as soon as the dog complies. This is a form of "avoidance training" and the dog learns that he can turn off the burn by responding quickly. As his response improves, start to let him "beat the system" if he whoas quickly enough.

Now you can use the collar in the field because the dog understands how to respond to turn it off.
 
BSH said:
All great replies! A lot of good info. My brother and I were discussing this the other night. Just some more background, he trains pointers, I train retrievers (flushers). He is a firm believer that you must keep the dog in range by whatever means necessary. I tried somewhat to sway him, but he has trained that way his entire life. I believe that you must not punish the dog while he is in pursuit of birds, especially in their first year of hunting wild birds. I do train just like many of the above posts suggest. Use pressure for a whistle sit, hup, etc away from birds. That is a good idea Springer, what did you do, just tuck a couple away in your vest pocket? I like this idea! Good talk folks!

Best
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Yes, when they 1/4 out just roll one in off to one side or the other and call them in and cast them that way, Don't let him see you, or he will just start farting around in front of you expecting it, Pigeons are a good cheap tool for this, you can tape a wing and use them over and over if the dog doesn't kill them, and once and a while throw in a flyer. If you have a couple guy's one on each side you can have them do it to some, to get them 1/4ing gun to gun.and try to do it into the wind so he can find it with his nose when you cast him that way, instead of a bump. This after a while will make him think you know where the bird is. He will respond to your hand direction that way after awhile. and a come in whistle. PS set up your Private message and PM me for a faster responce.Ken
 
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