What Do You Guys Think?-Controversial Issue

Good points Nimrod about the ecollar. Collar Conditioning is critical for using an ecollar. Sure, some dogs will figure it out, but others will, like mentioned, associate the pressure with the current activity (ie. hunting, swimming, retrieving, etc.). In my opinion the best way to collar condition a dog is after the dog understands the pressure of a choke collar with a lead, and/or a healing stick-all done with basic obedience in yard work. A choke collar is used for the sit, here, and heel commands, and then a healing stick is introduced upon sit. So in the dogs mind the way to beat the pressure is to beat the stick hitting his bottom, thus getting him to sit faster to beat the stick. (This same method is used in "stick fetch" down the road as part of the entire force fetch process.) While all of the basic obedience is being done the ecollar is worn, but not turned on. Once the dog understands how to beat the pressure of a choke chain and heeling stick, then the collar is used in conjunction with the heeling stick and the choke chain (ie. upon teaching sit, which is where I first introduce the collar to dogs, the sequence is "sit" [heeling stick] "sit" then "sit" [heeling stick and a collar nick] "sit", repeat a few times-read the dog- and the "sit" [collar nick] "sit". The dog understands the nick of the ecollar is the same pressure as the heeling stick/choke chain, thus learning how to beat the collar pressure. This process usually takes between a few days and a couple weeks depending on the dog. This is also the time to determine the level of pressure needed. If you know your dog and the pressure required with a choke chain and heeling stick then you coordinate the pressure of the ecollar upon that. Lastly the command not only preceeds the pressure, but it should bracket the pressure. Example "sit" nick "sit" or "whoa" nick "whoa".

Sorry if it was a little hard to follow. Feel free to pm me like Springer, it is faster to respond that way. Take care all! Good hunting this weekend!

Best
 
Thanks BSH, I think weâ??re on the same page. I will say that in recent years Iâ??ve discovered the advantages of â??clicker trainingâ?� for teaching obedience. Iâ??d always associated it w/ chubby ladies and their obedience/agility dogs but when I read an article by George Hickox whom I respect, I started to research it myself. It worked like a charm on the last 2 dogs I trained for teaching obedience and line manners. As a bonus, itâ??s really a fun way to work w/ a puppy watching them try so hard to earn a â??click/treatâ?�.

I probably couldnâ??t even find my heeling stick or prong collar these days but my dogs have better line manners/obedience than any dog I ever trained using the old tools.

The thing you have to overlook in reading about the clicker methods is that they almost all approach training with the false premise that â??punishment doesnâ??t workâ?�. If you can ignore that idiocy, you can quickly realize that the clicker provides the same advantage as the ecollar; namely the ability to provide the dog w/ perfectly timed feedback in a non-emotional manner.

Once the pup is responding correctly about 70% of the time (w/ no distractions) I begin the collar conditioning process to firm things up.
 
Definitely. Was that the article in Retriever Journal by Hickox where he talked about the association witht the bell and food? I would have to go back and re-read it, but there was a trainer who at one point did a test and just before every feeding would ring a bell. Then by the 10th time or so every time the dog would hear a bell it would begin to salivate-thus, it had made the association between hearing a bell and receiving food. -Same concept as clicker training. There are some great advantages to clicker training! I personally haven't ever done it with a lab, but I know of guys who, like you, use it when they are pups to teach association. Good way to go!

Take care.
 
What I don't like a clicker is they advocate the use of treats while training. That is totally against my grain. I have always used just good old "tender loving car". with a lot of good praise for doing it right. I can just picture myself going hunting with a pocket full of treats to get my dog to work right. He gets just a few Malto-Dextrin cookies at the end and that is it........Bob
 
bobeyerite said:
What I don't like a clicker is they advocate the use of treats while training. That is totally against my grain. I have always used just good old "tender loving car". with a lot of good praise for doing it right. I can just picture myself going hunting with a pocket full of treats to get my dog to work right. He gets just a few Malto-Dextrin cookies at the end and that is it........Bob
Click to expand...

Agreed! i would feel weired being in the field with a pocket full of treats, not to mention if theres other dogs out there, especially labs from my experience that will beg and beg for treats.

But the clicker is good for one thing i found, transitioning from the clicker to the e collar beeper :). 1 click means come 2 clicks means sit, 3 clicks means down...same goes with the dog collar! it made the transition really easy, that's if your e collar has the beep feature of course :-D
 
bobeyerite said:
What I don't like a clicker is they advocate the use of treats while training. That is totally against my grain. I have always used just good old "tender loving car". with a lot of good praise for doing it right. I can just picture myself going hunting with a pocket full of treats to get my dog to work right. He gets just a few Malto-Dextrin cookies at the end and that is it........Bob
Click to expand...


You don't understand the method. You don't take treats or the clicker to the field. It's a "teaching" tool for puppies in yard work. I wouldn't own a dog that paid any attention to a baggie of cheese when he's in the field.

The clicker isn't magic, but it provides 2 significant advantages.
1.) Precise timing to "mark" the desired response.
2.) Non-emotional signal. Sometimes praise can over-excite the dog so that he forgets what he's being praised for.

Interestingly, these are also the 2 major advantages of the ecollar over other forms of punishment/force.
 
Nimrod said:
The clicker isn't magic, but it provides 2 significant advantages.
1.) Precise timing to "mark" the desired response.
2.) Non-emotional signal. Sometimes praise can over-excite the dog so that he forgets what he's being praised for.

Interestingly, these are also the 2 major advantages of the ecollar over other forms of punishment/force.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Provided good collar conditioning, this is what actually makes the ecollar a very humane way to train, the dog understands the correction associated with the command instantly.

As Nimrod stated, the clicker is not used in the field, rather it is used to teach the pup association to command and response. Ideally the clicker training would be over and done with before the dog would be hunting afield. George Hickox did have the best write up on clicker training I ever read.

Take care all, Happy Thanksgiving!
 
Dog & bird out of range!

I agree with most of the responses regards dogs pushing birds too far - away they go! Have learned from a professional trainer that it may take as many as 200 shocks to teach a dog to stop running!!

The problem with a whistle - multiple hunters using a whistle and the dog(s) get confused. I use a whistle, but usually when I'm alone with my dog.

Train the dog early about range: use a lead when on walks and haul him in or give a nick when too far out. Pointers will probably disagree with this tactic, but I know it works with aggressive flushing dogs.
 
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