Tips for discussing habitat improvements with Farmer who may not quite understand?

K

KsHusker

Active member
My buddy and I found a guy who is a VERY VERY large scale farmer out west. He's very receptive to allowing people to hunt and is a very nice guy. Have had a few chances to talk to him and the past 2-3 years when I stop at his farm in November to talk about deer hunting/bird hunting we end up talking about 30 mins or so.

(When I say large scale -- after we talk to another farmer - we have access to hunt a swath of crop land about 5-6 miles N & S and about 3-4 or so E & West -- the smaller farmer that fills in the puzzle is the only guy who keeps the birds around now but more on that later, and as for the large scale guy, from what I understand we are still on a fraction of his land)

The last couple years the drought has hit his place hard and decimated the birds. The farmer likes to hunt, but typically with family/friends and only around Thanksgiving and opening weekend. I'm not sure if they use dogs but dont think they went out last year at all and if they did it was once.

Anyways, what has prompted my question is that the past couple years during our brief conversations he seems really genuinely concerned about the lack of birds and talks about how he likes seeing them but hes not sure where they went. I've thought he may be receptive to a pitch on some wildlife improvements but he also seems to be a no nonsense strictly business kind of guy. The past 3-4 years he has tore out 2-3 large chunks of CRP that were amazingly placed next to windmills one other area farmer leaves running all spring/summer/fall for the birds/deer.

My buddy and I have debated pitching helping him put in some habitat but we are just scared he might take it the wrong way coming from a couple non farmers whom he gives unfettered access to his ground. We are just afraid it may insult him in some way. I hope that makes sense. What I've really wanted to ask is possibly the economics that sway his decisions (ie why he tore out the crp and what went into it etc as I think that may help frame a discussion he would understand in his terms, however I havent had the balls to ask) and then possibly help come up with a plan to put in a little habitat that will cost next to nothing or little at all etc.


I hope you guys get the gist of my question --- Basically in a nutshell I think this guy really does enjoy wildlife, but as puzzling as it is to me since he grew up in the area he really is not educated on what constitutes good habitat or the really small things that may help the birds out. We are simply looking for possibly a polite and non threatening way to bring up the issue of habitat improvement without insulting his farming practices if that makes sense. :cheers: We dont really want to do it for any more birds to hunt, its just we saw what the place once was and with the right ingredients its a bird paradise, but the few small changes that have taken place the past 3-4 years have changed it for the worse. (We could possibly put in any habitat improvements with my buddies grandfathers equipment at our expense -- he farms a quarter in the vicinity)



As for the other farmer we get permission on - he owns a fraction of the ground, but he's really not motivated to farm - I dont say that in a bad way - we just think he has a large trust fund or is comfortable living the way he does now -- so he lets a lot of his stuff go and its always full of weeds, and a couple patches of ground he's put in some additional guzzlers etc. He's the only reason through the drought that the birds still stay in this swath of ground - if it wasn't for him I think after 2012 there would be nary a bird. We know he agitates his neighbors due to his dirty fields, but thankfully he's a younger guy and I hope it stays that way for years to come.

When this swath of ground was in its heyday 05-2010 or so for us, this place would make you think you are in a promotional video for South Dakota hunting. It has taken a serious nosedive due to the drought, but there was quite a bit of seed left -- we just couldnt get to any of them last year due to all the sand burrs. (They were absolutely horrible with the late summer rains)
 
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You have framed the question well. I am in the process of cutting hay on land that has been in CRP for 15 years. I still like wildlife but the economics just was not there to keep it in CRP. After 15 years it was not good CRP any more. The guy you talk about is doing what makes sense to him. Large operators do not like to leave small areas to have to go around. In our area sloughs are farmed when possible to keep it simple. If your going to talk to him I would frame things in the form of a question. Example: What if you left 20 acres for nesting here and there and us guys that you let hunt would pay you rent on those acres? If you are willing to have a little skin in the game too and he gets to see what the result is it might spread. Us farmers are independent and we like to think we are doing it right or we would have changed it. So don't tell him he is making a mistake, ask the what if questions and then be willing to participate. Good luck, as a landowner I appreciate your approach.
 
Thanks -- how you put it makes sense.


I was just wanting to get the other perspective because I dont know how he may be looking at it economically.

I think we could get ahold of habitat seed for little to nothing - it would just be a matter of getting it in the ground.


Simple 5 acre or less patches or a simple 10' wide strip here and there at the right place would do wonders. This may be something we will have to try and discuss with him this fall if the opportunity presents itself. We are just afraid it would come across as being self serving on our part which it wouldnt be -- I enjoy the wildlife and knowing its there. Most of the fun in the heyday was seeing the birds, we honestly didnt always harvest a whole lot of birds but sure had fun chasing them around and seeing them off in the distance.
 
haymaker has the right idea. Ask him to rent a few acres, don't expect him to give up productive land for nothing. Tell him field corners or other odd shaped areas would work fine. I have a friend that farms a lot of ground in western Kansas that is the same way, he doesn't hunt much and is all business. I don't raise wheat just corn and beans so I go out and help him during wheat harvest. I told him all the payment I want is to leave some uncut wheat and milo in corners or weedy strips around the edge of some fields where there is cover. On the farms I own out there, I have him leave a lot more crop standing, and tell him to subtract what he thinks he left from my 1/3 of the crop.
 
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haymaker said:
You have framed the question well. I am in the process of cutting hay on land that has been in CRP for 15 years. I still like wildlife but the economics just was not there to keep it in CRP. After 15 years it was not good CRP any more. The guy you talk about is doing what makes sense to him. Large operators do not like to leave small areas to have to go around. In our area sloughs are farmed when possible to keep it simple. If your going to talk to him I would frame things in the form of a question. Example: What if you left 20 acres for nesting here and there and us guys that you let hunt would pay you rent on those acres? If you are willing to have a little skin in the game too and he gets to see what the result is it might spread. Us farmers are independent and we like to think we are doing it right or we would have changed it. So don't tell him he is making a mistake, ask the what if questions and then be willing to participate. Good luck, as a landowner I appreciate your approach.
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the above answer is from a guy who knows....run with it, but understand any improvements you make will cost you far more than next to nothing...:cool:
 
I would tread very carefully. The last thing you need is to have him tell somebody: "let'em hunt and they think they own the place."

Next time the conversation comes up, maybe the best you can do is say: "I know the birds are down, is there anything we can do ?" "I know you ain't got time to dink around with a habitat plot, maybe we could pitch in, after all, you've been good to us all these years."

If he says no, don't push.
 
If it were me I would just hunt there when I have permission and leave it at that. Out west there are very few birds anywhere no matter the habitat. Family and extended family have 68 square miles of farm ground where nothing has changed in years and yet we have no birds. Most of this ground is in milo and and about 40% crp.
 
Think more in terms of nesting than food plots. Food plots are good but if you don't have nesting cover there won't be anything that needs food. If there are grain fields there will be food. I find that twenty acres of nesting in among fields of corn, beans and wheat are big enough for nesting but small enough to hunt. You could include an acre of milo as part of the 20 acres.
 
haymaker said:
Think more in terms of nesting than food plots. Food plots are good but if you don't have nesting cover there won't be anything that needs food.
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There definitely isn't a lack of food in the winter - nesting cover is whats lacking and what would benefit the birds the most.

Small farmer I mentioned provides most of it by not farming his fields, however there are a few strategic areas that are gone now and if just a little bit here and there were added back it would make a big difference, that along with possibly a guzzler or solar well or two here and there.

Matte -- sounds like you should stick to deer hunting. Plenty has changed in the ag industry and our environment over the past 2-3 decades and on a micro level the past 2-3 years even. Sounds like those bowsite guys (if you're the same guy from there) may have brainwashed you a bit in saying nothing has changed in the past 30-40 years yet they cant understand why there are no quail, prairie chickens etc. :cheers:




If we are ever able to have the talk I'll post an update here. I think he might be sympathetic especially if we offer to rent or give him something else in exchange and put the habitat in.

Thanks again for the input -- just needed some of the farmers point of view on things.
 
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This is just a thought..next time you talk to your farmer friend ask him to teach you the practices of planting and harvesting. Tell him in the next few years you may want to look into purchasing some land somewhere for you to hunt and want to learn the proper ways of cultivating the land, planting and harvesting so that you have the best possible yield from your crop for your birds. From my talks with farmers around my region they are more than happy to pass down what they have learned to someone else to keep the tradition of farming alive. Especially if they will get some free labor from you in exchange. That may open up the conversation of leaving small parcels of land left standing for habitat. Maybe phrase it like what if i left this area on my land standing for cover what would be the best crop for food or something like that. He may let you try it on his land as a test run. Just my 2 cents..well in this economy maybe a cent and a half lol..good luck to you
 
Husker, I would recommend a trip to the NRCS office where you should ask about the federal programs like WHIP, CCRP, CRP, etc. You know his land some, think of areas you're seen that are always unproductive. Putting some of those acres that aren't probably profitable into a filter strip or CCRP block might increase his bottom line while at the same time providing the nesting and brood-rearing habitat that is the foundation of any bird population on his farm. A minimum width is 30 feet and the wider it is, the less predation will be a factor. The areas you might look at are along tree rows or woods where the tree roots prevent good crop growth. Maybe erosion cuts that would benefit by being put into sod. Perhaps hill tops that have little top soil or along neighboring landowners where spray drift might be a problem. If you can solve some of his problems at the same time as solving the birds, it will be an economical choice for him.
 
I was going to say about the same as prairie drifter. Check into the cp33 program, but not sure its still a program option. The cp33 program has been a good one for my Mo. farm and my quail have benefitted good plus have income from it. The new farm bill has several new conservation options that benefit wildlife while paying the landowners a fair rent. Like whats been said us farmers are a independent bunch and we also have had to adjust to make a living but most of us appreciate and enjoy wildlife and if given a fair compensation will try and help wildlife and good hunters to have more birds to hunt. Try and treat us like you would want to be treated. Being a farmer and also a bird hunter I try and see both sides but to me if theres not good habitat then there is very few birds or other wildlife.
 
Your instinct to tread very lightly is correct. I think your farmer friend understands more about why his bird population is declining than he lets on. He's probably lived there all his life and sees what habitat the birds prefer on a daily basis. I'm sure he knows that taking out CRP means fewer birds. I wouldn't try to educate him. As much as I'd like to, I would never suggest that a farmer who gave me permission plant more CRP. The farmer already made a decision on the crop/wildlife balance and doesn't need my selfish advice. Having permission on marginal habitat is better than no permission at all. If you want to do something for the birds without offending your farmer friend, maybe you could offer to improve some habitat in a way that doesn't take crops out of production. Maybe something like plant some winter/thermal habitat in an area that isn't in production.
 
dead pheasants forever said:
Your instinct to tread very lightly is correct. I think your farmer friend understands more about why his bird population is declining than he lets on. He's probably lived there all his life and sees what habitat the birds prefer on a daily basis. I'm sure he knows that taking out CRP means fewer birds. I wouldn't try to educate him. As much as I'd like to, I would never suggest that a farmer who gave me permission plant more CRP. The farmer already made a decision on the crop/wildlife balance and doesn't need my selfish advice. Having permission on marginal habitat is better than no permission at all. If you want to do something for the birds without offending your farmer friend, maybe you could offer to improve some habitat in a way that doesn't take crops out of production. Maybe something like plant some winter/thermal habitat in an area that isn't in production.
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He could or could not be letting on more than he knows. Another farmer who lets me hunt in another area of the state is in his 60's -- has lived in the area his whole life, makes his living about equally ranching/farming and until I showed him the prairie chicken we shot on his property was dead convinced it was a hen pheasant or that we'd be walking up with one -- it was quite a funny conversation, but him having decades of living on the property over me I was blown away he couldnt really recognize what a prairie chicken was and had never seen one up close. He wasnt even sure he had very many on his property till I relayed my observations as he always thought they were probably pheasants.

Not saying that is a bad thing on the Farmers part -- we all have our different passions, Im passionate about the study of mine like most of you guys are here so I'd say most of us could typically be more knowledgeable on the subject than the avg guy/gal.

But all great advice -- We certainly wont or dont intend to insult the guy -as I stated I think his motivations are economic (if you saw his office you'd understand) so if I bring anything up I intend to speak his language, however in a graceful and benign way. I dont farm and dont have my head fully wrapped up into all the factors that affect the economic decisions so was curious what that side of the fence is.


What Troy Pointed out is a good lead -- one I will have to follow up.
 
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