gimruis
Well-known member
So do I. I also place my decoys at specific distance reference points (if I'm using any) so that when a turkey nears it, I can make a pretty good estimate on distance if I don't have the time to use my range finder.
The truth about Prairie Storm
- Thread starter Bob Peters
- Start date
Al contrario mi hermanos.
Safety- All types of hunting in SD averages about one death and 25 injuries per year, including heart attack and drowning. Most pheasant injuries occur in the field but there are a few in the vehicles. With 120,000 hunters a year just pheasant hunting, you have to win the Darwin lottery to get yourself hurt in any manner you hunt so whatever you fear will happen while road hunting just doesn't ever happen in reality in any frequency to make it more or less safe than what you do. The risk numbers aren't on your side of the argument but journalists and the pheasant farm operators that buy ads in their paper also agree with you that I must not know what I am doing. Instead they seem to suggest I should just pay them to go stand shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of newbies and walk towards other newbies and shoot towards each other-
www.sdnewswatch.org
I was as surprised and skeptical about hitting a pheasant while shooting from the hip so I'm with you there. I did it more out of instinct and it worked but I doubt I will ever try it again.
Here's some info for perspective- I'm 52 and have done this for 30 years. Dad is 75 and has done it for 45 years. We stay and hunt with farmers 5 miles from where pheasants were first released in the wild in the midwest. They helped foster and develop pheasant hunting going on 4 generations now and educated us on pheasant biology, habitat, raising chicks, predator control and hunting techniques. Dad can now only go about 200 yards on level ground so he drives/blocks and I navigate, flush, shoot and retrieve. We lost our dog to a car accident a couple years ago and haven't been able to replace him yet. Amongst other hunting and fishing, we have time to make one pheasant trip to opener in SD on a yearly basis. In the past we have hunted with labs, brittneys, setters and even a rat terrier. We've done fields, sloughs, fences and corn drives. I live in MN and used to do pheasants around SE MN near Montevideo on state land and then evening hunt geese on Lac Qui Parle reserve. Both were mismanaged and wastes of time. Saved those weekends up for spring turkey and trout fishing in Preston/Lanesboro for many years.
My wife hates the site of wild game so I process it at dad's until it looks like store bought. The thought of her giving me grief for not bringing home a limit had me laughing all day. Thanks for that. We hunt for our limit and so do you. You post on here for bragging rights and so do I. We like to eat pheasant and make it for others and so with our limited opportunity over opener, we make sure to take home all our birds. It also makes it a challenge and something to achieve.
Here's how 95% of the birds go- I drive a short distance to a small bit of public land where I see birds. We decide on strategy, setup a blocker and walker and most often I go into the grass to flush them out, but occasionally we have a dog for part of the time. We walk it out, stay out of the adjacent private ground, shoot, retrieve and move on. We never see another hunter and have a car go by maybe once out of 50 walks. 99% of the time if another hunter has been on that ground, it's been us but we have learned to stay where the birds are since that's where they are. Sometimes they don't cooperate and will jump up when I get out of the truck so I shoot them too. I'll keep doing that until I reach true pheasant mastery and can talk them into holding still while I go get a dog, uncase and load the gun which apparently follows some higher law than South Dakota's.
Compare this to your typical hunt. You drive a little longer to a little bigger parcel of public land where you may or may not have ever seen birds on it. There's apparently something mystical about walking perpendicular to a roadway that brings you to a higher plain of existence but I've not attained that level yet in my meager attempts so I hunt parallel with the road. You more often have a dog than us but you setup your strategy, walk it out and stay off the adjacent public ground. You more often run into other hunters or ground that has been hunted recently so your birds tend to either get up real close or far away. You've made good decisions about your gun and ammo to effectively handle your situation, your comfort with making the shots and the ranges you typically get in.
So have I and that's why I shoot PS shells.
Safety- All types of hunting in SD averages about one death and 25 injuries per year, including heart attack and drowning. Most pheasant injuries occur in the field but there are a few in the vehicles. With 120,000 hunters a year just pheasant hunting, you have to win the Darwin lottery to get yourself hurt in any manner you hunt so whatever you fear will happen while road hunting just doesn't ever happen in reality in any frequency to make it more or less safe than what you do. The risk numbers aren't on your side of the argument but journalists and the pheasant farm operators that buy ads in their paper also agree with you that I must not know what I am doing. Instead they seem to suggest I should just pay them to go stand shoulder to shoulder with a bunch of newbies and walk towards other newbies and shoot towards each other-
South Dakota road hunting laws most permissive in the Great Plains - South Dakota News Watch
This story was produced by South Dakota News Watch, a non-profit news organization. Find additional in-depth coverage at www.sdnewswatch.org. No neighboring state is as liberal as South Dakota when...
www.sdnewswatch.org
I was as surprised and skeptical about hitting a pheasant while shooting from the hip so I'm with you there. I did it more out of instinct and it worked but I doubt I will ever try it again.
Here's some info for perspective- I'm 52 and have done this for 30 years. Dad is 75 and has done it for 45 years. We stay and hunt with farmers 5 miles from where pheasants were first released in the wild in the midwest. They helped foster and develop pheasant hunting going on 4 generations now and educated us on pheasant biology, habitat, raising chicks, predator control and hunting techniques. Dad can now only go about 200 yards on level ground so he drives/blocks and I navigate, flush, shoot and retrieve. We lost our dog to a car accident a couple years ago and haven't been able to replace him yet. Amongst other hunting and fishing, we have time to make one pheasant trip to opener in SD on a yearly basis. In the past we have hunted with labs, brittneys, setters and even a rat terrier. We've done fields, sloughs, fences and corn drives. I live in MN and used to do pheasants around SE MN near Montevideo on state land and then evening hunt geese on Lac Qui Parle reserve. Both were mismanaged and wastes of time. Saved those weekends up for spring turkey and trout fishing in Preston/Lanesboro for many years.
My wife hates the site of wild game so I process it at dad's until it looks like store bought. The thought of her giving me grief for not bringing home a limit had me laughing all day. Thanks for that. We hunt for our limit and so do you. You post on here for bragging rights and so do I. We like to eat pheasant and make it for others and so with our limited opportunity over opener, we make sure to take home all our birds. It also makes it a challenge and something to achieve.
Here's how 95% of the birds go- I drive a short distance to a small bit of public land where I see birds. We decide on strategy, setup a blocker and walker and most often I go into the grass to flush them out, but occasionally we have a dog for part of the time. We walk it out, stay out of the adjacent private ground, shoot, retrieve and move on. We never see another hunter and have a car go by maybe once out of 50 walks. 99% of the time if another hunter has been on that ground, it's been us but we have learned to stay where the birds are since that's where they are. Sometimes they don't cooperate and will jump up when I get out of the truck so I shoot them too. I'll keep doing that until I reach true pheasant mastery and can talk them into holding still while I go get a dog, uncase and load the gun which apparently follows some higher law than South Dakota's.
Compare this to your typical hunt. You drive a little longer to a little bigger parcel of public land where you may or may not have ever seen birds on it. There's apparently something mystical about walking perpendicular to a roadway that brings you to a higher plain of existence but I've not attained that level yet in my meager attempts so I hunt parallel with the road. You more often have a dog than us but you setup your strategy, walk it out and stay off the adjacent public ground. You more often run into other hunters or ground that has been hunted recently so your birds tend to either get up real close or far away. You've made good decisions about your gun and ammo to effectively handle your situation, your comfort with making the shots and the ranges you typically get in.
So have I and that's why I shoot PS shells.
Bob Peters
Well-known member
I always read your road hunting posts and they're very informative of how to road hunt exclusively and effectively. But getting back to the heart of the issue, and the fact that you've been into reloading in the past, surprises me you would shoot stormy prairie shells. It seems paramount in your hunting is the ability to kill roosters dead at longer ranges. The most important part of that equation (after where you place the muzzle) is pattern density. Period. If you're consistently shooting at roosters on the long side of things (40-50 yards) there's gonna be a lot more holes in your pattern with an overloaded shell where half of the pellets are shaped like a blind mans version of the planet Saturn. Just like the dandy out-of-stater who shows up at a groomed preserve after seeing ads touting "come hunt the best!" and has no idea he is shooting birds fresh out of the pen, you've also been hoodwinked by ads with storm clouds in the background and a rooster flying through a galaxy with Saturn pellets chasing it down.
dakotasj
Well-known member
From a dandy-out-of-stater that never has hunted the groomed preserves outside my home state and don't "road" hunt, one that you believe has been "hood-winked."
Agree nothing much matters if you are pointing wrong. Shells don't help much if you just miss, and I've had my share of those especially if there are witnesses.
Density is important but not sure it takes that many pellets to bring down a rooster. Placement and penetration are more important than density I believe. Too dense is a disaster and makes missing easier. I shoot an o/u, bottom barrel is LM, top M. Would never use a full choke to improve density and I try not to shoot past 40 yds.
I believe velocity is important because penetration matters. Test using ballistic gelatin show that a #2 lead pellet at 1488 fps penetrates 1.8 inches at 40 yds. KE=mv2. At 1300 fps the penetration is about 1.1 inches. Steel obviously has less penetration than lead at similar velocities/size.
From your 1/17 tag "Speed Trap -- On a 90-degree crossing shot at 40 yards, No. 2 shot at 1,700 fps requires about 10 inches less lead than the same shot size at 1,450...", difference between 1300 and 1500 would be similar. Another reason I think faster shells could be superior. Hunting in small groups (2-4) or often solo with Brits, I don't have many 90 degree passing shots. Most of my shots are quartering to more straight away. I believe straight away requires more penetration to not cripple and more velocity equals more penetration.
I think faster loads improve my batting average and my hit and lost birds have been dramatically reduced. The rhetoric or advertising might influence me to try something new, but my own real experience is what I lean on. One other point, at this point in my life, with the limited time I have to pheasant hunt the difference between what I pay to use PS per year and other shells is about a trip thru the McD's drive thru for a cheeseburger, fries and a milkshake.
Good luck to you.
Wing Shooter
Member
Hi dakotasj,
There's a lot of wisdom in your post.
I haven't reached novice pheasant hunter status. Experience has earned me title of expert consumer of everything.
Marketing is artfully applied social science. Marketers can wax ingenious at separating consumers from their money. Lord knows, I've been separated from too much of mine chasing marketers' illusions.
You're 100% right: shot placement and penetration kill.
Based on my limited exposure to pheasant hunting, I caught on pretty darn quickly that success was a function of shouldering a shotgun, and getting its muzzle pointed where it needed to be at flushed birds. Stay on point until a rooster was about 30 yards from a shooter before firing. That way there's pheasant left to cook. A pheasant that takes a load of shot at 10 yards is nothing but wafting feathers.
During my recent Kansas trip, no one connected on third shots. I didn't waste time conducting a forensic analysis to determine why third shots failed to drop pheasants. I do have theories.
You were on target again when you wrote that expensive shells won't fix bad shooting. If a hunter can't shoot, it won't matter what shells occupy his gun's magazine space.
I learned that a fast-handlng shotgun is worth its weight in gold. A long-barreled shotgun isn't necessary to kill flushed pheasants. A 24-to-26-inch barreled shotgun would be perfect for dropping flushed pheasants. I saw why many old-school upland hunters prefer SxS shotguns. A thrid round might be good for waterfowl hunters shooting fins down ducks and geese over decoys. A third shot is most often wasted money when shooting upland birds that have ignited scramjet.
As for shotgun ammo, high base #6 killed pheasants before either one of us were born. I saw a couple hunters limit out every day using Remington high base #5's. My guide examined my ammo arsenal, picked a box of high base #6, and told me to use them. I did. They worked.
Next year, I will use my Benelli Ethos 20 gauge 26" using standard high base shells. That gun weighs 5.5 pounds, points like a laser, handles faster than the US Treasury collects tax money, and would be a pleasure to carry all day. Based on what I have experienced, success is determined by paying attention to dogs. I will not allow myself to be distracted by multiple flushed birds. I won't be thinking double. I'll concentrate on one bird, follow it until it's about 25-to-30 yards from me, and drop it. Tracking two airborne birds usually result in neither on the ground.
I'm always good with other hunters think will work for them. If a Rocky Mountain elk hunter thinks he needs a 15-pound mega magnum to tag a bull, I'm good. I can tag a bull carrying an 8-pound .270 Win. If a pheasant hunter used a tricked-out, long-barreled, 12 gauge loaded with the newest iteration of pheasant killing shells, I'm good.
I used to hunt a lot of valley and mountain quail in So Cal. I moved up to a 28" barreled 870 12 gauge. A covey that explodes from concealment and flutters to maximum airborne speed in a nanosecond required instant shouldering of a shotgun and concentration on a single bird. A 24" barreled, lightweight 20 gauge would have been a perfect shotgun for flushed coveys.
I'm good with pheasant-specific shotgun shells. I'd like to see a broader array of practical upland shotguns. I think 26" barreled shotguns are at the high end of barrel length. I'd like to see 24" barreled shotguns. In fact, I ought to get busy researching whether I can buy a 24" upland barrel for my Benelli. I could become weak if I came across a 24" barreled 20 gauge O/U.
Based on what I learned, success is determined at the flush. At the flush, any high base shell will drop roosters.
There's a lot of wisdom in your post.
I haven't reached novice pheasant hunter status. Experience has earned me title of expert consumer of everything.
Marketing is artfully applied social science. Marketers can wax ingenious at separating consumers from their money. Lord knows, I've been separated from too much of mine chasing marketers' illusions.
You're 100% right: shot placement and penetration kill.
Based on my limited exposure to pheasant hunting, I caught on pretty darn quickly that success was a function of shouldering a shotgun, and getting its muzzle pointed where it needed to be at flushed birds. Stay on point until a rooster was about 30 yards from a shooter before firing. That way there's pheasant left to cook. A pheasant that takes a load of shot at 10 yards is nothing but wafting feathers.
During my recent Kansas trip, no one connected on third shots. I didn't waste time conducting a forensic analysis to determine why third shots failed to drop pheasants. I do have theories.
You were on target again when you wrote that expensive shells won't fix bad shooting. If a hunter can't shoot, it won't matter what shells occupy his gun's magazine space.
I learned that a fast-handlng shotgun is worth its weight in gold. A long-barreled shotgun isn't necessary to kill flushed pheasants. A 24-to-26-inch barreled shotgun would be perfect for dropping flushed pheasants. I saw why many old-school upland hunters prefer SxS shotguns. A thrid round might be good for waterfowl hunters shooting fins down ducks and geese over decoys. A third shot is most often wasted money when shooting upland birds that have ignited scramjet.
As for shotgun ammo, high base #6 killed pheasants before either one of us were born. I saw a couple hunters limit out every day using Remington high base #5's. My guide examined my ammo arsenal, picked a box of high base #6, and told me to use them. I did. They worked.
Next year, I will use my Benelli Ethos 20 gauge 26" using standard high base shells. That gun weighs 5.5 pounds, points like a laser, handles faster than the US Treasury collects tax money, and would be a pleasure to carry all day. Based on what I have experienced, success is determined by paying attention to dogs. I will not allow myself to be distracted by multiple flushed birds. I won't be thinking double. I'll concentrate on one bird, follow it until it's about 25-to-30 yards from me, and drop it. Tracking two airborne birds usually result in neither on the ground.
I'm always good with other hunters think will work for them. If a Rocky Mountain elk hunter thinks he needs a 15-pound mega magnum to tag a bull, I'm good. I can tag a bull carrying an 8-pound .270 Win. If a pheasant hunter used a tricked-out, long-barreled, 12 gauge loaded with the newest iteration of pheasant killing shells, I'm good.
I used to hunt a lot of valley and mountain quail in So Cal. I moved up to a 28" barreled 870 12 gauge. A covey that explodes from concealment and flutters to maximum airborne speed in a nanosecond required instant shouldering of a shotgun and concentration on a single bird. A 24" barreled, lightweight 20 gauge would have been a perfect shotgun for flushed coveys.
I'm good with pheasant-specific shotgun shells. I'd like to see a broader array of practical upland shotguns. I think 26" barreled shotguns are at the high end of barrel length. I'd like to see 24" barreled shotguns. In fact, I ought to get busy researching whether I can buy a 24" upland barrel for my Benelli. I could become weak if I came across a 24" barreled 20 gauge O/U.
Based on what I learned, success is determined at the flush. At the flush, any high base shell will drop roosters.
gimruis
Well-known member
I agree with this, and when I went from an old, heavier 870 to a lighter, newer Benelli, it made a huge difference in terms of folded pheasants. I had that 870 because it was the only shotgun I could afford when I was 16 and started hunting.
Another related item that has greatly helped me is to carry the gun with two hands! On rare occasion a trusted family member or friend will hunt with me and I see them carrying the shotgun with one arm over their shoulder. The amount of time it takes to get your other hand on the gun, aim, and shoot can often be the difference between a bird at a reasonable range compared to a bird at longer range.
dakotasj
Well-known member
e contra frater meus
I've patterned my gun and chokes at long range on a bedsheet sized target with high velocity PS shells and I don't get holes in the pattern. Some guy pumping out fashionable anti-latest everything pundit hot takes with Bennelli 20 gauge on 30 inches of paper is not an "expert" I'm willing to believe on their say so.
I don't want a denser pattern at 40-50 yards. If my aim is off 18 inches at that distance, I'm not wishing I had 30% more pellets inside a 30" hole, still missing wide. I want 30% of the shot out at the edges of at 48" pattern to give me a chance. That's what the flightstopper pellets are designed to do. If I want more pellets in the middle of a pattern, I'll move up to 3in PS shells (which I have lately) and get both width and density.
That's right, I said I often shoot wide and PS shells compensate for that. Just keep missing birds with your tight pattern sub gauge, pulling up short if they get a little to far out and spend more days at the range than in the field getting your shot placement just right and call that hunting success. "I missed that bird but I did it with sporting style- with my $10K "AKC" dog, my $50k "Purdey" double in 28 gauge, my $300 "Orvis" strap vest and my $2 a shell "BOSS" tungsten/bismuth. But most important, I did it totally immune to marketing influence if you don't look that close to my profile picture."
Confirmation bias is much more powerful than marketing. Any new or casual hunter to the sport that happened by this site would quickly get the idea that small gauge guns, pointing dogs, 50 degree weather and very specific private land or the rare unfindable public spot is essential and otherwise they shouldn't bother making the trip. I think you forget about the variety readers of your post when you out of hand reject anything that isn't in your preferable hunting style or popular on this site. That's why I'm always telling new guys to make the trip whether you have a dog or not, forget about the atlas and all the public ground in west river SD that looks so good on the map and bring your 12 gauge whatever-you-have with the hardest hitting shell you can handle- PS shells if you can find them.
Chestle
Well-known member
With a bit of work, it's a do-able thing.
If you can find a Browning Citori CXS Micro 20ga, it has 24" barrels. It's a "youth" gun with a 13" length of pull but was designed so that a full size stock can be installed. I don't think they're making it anymore so you'd have to find one.
I believe the CZ-USA Redhead Premier Reduced Length is the same situation in 20ga/24". Midway has one for sale.
Stoeger makes a 20ga/22" Condor Youth. I would think the regular size Condor 20ga stock would fit. Bud's has those.
agraham20
Active member
Sounds too me like someone is a little jealous of the guys with “style”
I will enjoy hunting over my well trained AKC dog, with my nice O/U on public land any day over trying to glorify hip blasting road birds out of my truck. But to each their own
Do us all a favor and please refrain from teaching the younger generation your superior and advanced hunting techniques and styles tho. Some secrets are best kept to themselves.
It's just too ironic that we've got a 5 page thread on an ammunition type. Looking past all the ballistics involved, seems to me there's a deeper issue here. Even in pheasant hunting, we can't seem to get past the class warfare.
It gladdens my heart that, despite the posturing and braggadocio in regard to shooting birds that I often see on this site, I know there are guys in Iowa, South Dakota or you name it, who after feeding cattle or doing the milking, put on a pair of 10 year old Sears Die Hards and a threadbare set of Carhartt coveralls, pick up their 1940s vintage16 gauge full choke silverworn Model 12, call their old farm dog Lab from the barn and walk down the fencerow and shoot a limit of birds. Since he's not one of the "guys with style", he doesn't know that a 16 gauge full choke, 80 year old pump isn't the chic tool to use--so he shoots rabbits, roosters, quail, ducks, turkeys and even deer with it in his ignorance. And he just might outshoot us all. I had a Father In Law that fits the above description right down to the boots.
All honors to him and all the guys like him who, not knowing "it can't be done", do it every season.
It gladdens my heart that, despite the posturing and braggadocio in regard to shooting birds that I often see on this site, I know there are guys in Iowa, South Dakota or you name it, who after feeding cattle or doing the milking, put on a pair of 10 year old Sears Die Hards and a threadbare set of Carhartt coveralls, pick up their 1940s vintage16 gauge full choke silverworn Model 12, call their old farm dog Lab from the barn and walk down the fencerow and shoot a limit of birds. Since he's not one of the "guys with style", he doesn't know that a 16 gauge full choke, 80 year old pump isn't the chic tool to use--so he shoots rabbits, roosters, quail, ducks, turkeys and even deer with it in his ignorance. And he just might outshoot us all. I had a Father In Law that fits the above description right down to the boots.
All honors to him and all the guys like him who, not knowing "it can't be done", do it every season.
Wind River
Well-known member
Could I get some tickets for that Purdey raffle?? It is good to be different and have choices. Take the high ground when you have a chance.
agraham20
Active member
Assumptions and stereotypes are rampant in this conversation. It was never a hunting with a dog vs no dog or hunting with a high dollar sub gauge gun or cheap pump conversation.
In reality the avg, hunter on this forum is shooting a less then 2k shotgun regardless of gauge other then maybe a select few, and the avg dog probably cost less then 2k even if it is an “AKC” dog. And PS shells cost almost as much as Boss shells
And most of us don’t hunt elusive public spots or private land all day. I slide on my same 8 yr old pair of hunting boots and load my $900 akc hunting dog into my truck and go hunt pheasants on public land that everyone else hunts because it’s all that’s available too me…. Oh and I shoot my 1800 dollar 16 gauge shotgun that the only reason I have was my daughter won it at a local PF banquet. I don’t care if I shoot my limit of birds everytime I go out, I enjoy it if I do, but to me the hunt is enjoying my dog and my time out in the field. The time to myself or the time with good friends. I don’t look down on anybody for hunting any other way regardless of style. I just want everyone to be safe and be good mentors and sports.
remy3424
Well-known member
The one thing that I put together not a real long time ago, is that all aspects of pheasant hunting vary greatly. The guns, the ammo, the choke, the gear, the dogs and levels of training that is acceptable to the hunter, the terrain, the cover in which we hunt, the distances we travel, etc. Everything, even why we hunt varies greatly. This does add to the spirited debates on the many topics we explore here. What works for some will not be the answer for others, I do at times need to remember this myself. Don't get to caught-up on, if someone sees or does things differently, sometimes we can pick-up on something new that will work for yourself and make things better/easier. If their entire outlook is something that is an issue, just use that little "ignore" feature to make the site even more enjoyable.
And here I am in a topic about PS and I don't even shoot commercially loaded ammo! On a positive note; Less than 9 months until the Iowa opener! Enjoy the off season and keep visiting the site....spring habitat work will be coming in a few months to chat about, then the chick hatch, etc!
And here I am in a topic about PS and I don't even shoot commercially loaded ammo! On a positive note; Less than 9 months until the Iowa opener! Enjoy the off season and keep visiting the site....spring habitat work will be coming in a few months to chat about, then the chick hatch, etc!
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gimruis
Well-known member
One item that really can't be argued is when someone posts the raw data on page 2 by Joe Hunter. Even though his variables are different from the variables I have when using PS, data is not arguable. I don't care what your personal experience is, math is math. 1+ 1 is always 2.
I do quite enjoy being a contrarian but try not to cross over into be argumentative or be fanatical about a point so yes, moving on is a good idea. I'm not critical of high dollar investment but rather the opposite. You have good reason for those choices and I don't assume you are gullible, ignorant or unable to see the facts as I present them. I'd like to know what those reasons are, in what context you chose them and what might be different options.
I just see so many times in so many hobbies that newbies end up being miserable with their first setups or quit altogether when great options where available to them from the start if someone spoke up and offer an alternate viewpoint.
I just see so many times in so many hobbies that newbies end up being miserable with their first setups or quit altogether when great options where available to them from the start if someone spoke up and offer an alternate viewpoint.
Bob Peters
Well-known member
Can I quote Johnny Ringo? "Oh I was just foolin' about." I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, just trying to get some ballistics discussion going. If the hunting season was still going I'd prolly be doing that instead of posting ammo threads! Everybody have a good night. Now I need to get out of here before Doc Holliday shows up!
Gatzby
Well-known member
Best movie ever
The Pup is AKC registered "Glen Edin's everyday is a Holiday" call name Doc.
PS He's one of them expensive some might say "very expensive" AKC dogs
