Thanks...I'll try them out - hopefully they'll make a difference!
The truth about Prairie Storm
- Thread starter Bob Peters
- Start date
Thanks...I'll try them out - hopefully they'll make a difference!
20super90
Active member
Big fan of the old rooster rockets as well called them myself. All copper plated federal red boxes.. wing shok. Call it what ya want. I do think prairie storms pattern a bit tighter therefore I hace about 2 boxes and my 4 shell from mid December out is PS. The only real down fall I had with PS that was leads me to look else where is the feather pull. Them Saturn pellets pull alot.... just my .2 cents. Maybe they are close shots or what not. Wish they would start producing the wing shok or red box. Rooster rockets. Again. Prairie storm ain't needed
Bob Peters
Well-known member
John, I don't think I mentioned any myth or misunderstanding. I simply stated that a fast shotcloud slows down much quicker than a slower one. And though it's true that the slow one will never pass the faster one, the speeds get MUCH closer the further from the muzzle, and I want to remind hunters that a faster fps at the muzzle is not necessarily a good indicator of being able to shoot game birds at a farther range. Although modern shotcups and buffering of the load help hold patterns together, high velocity still tends to spread patterns no bones about it. Not to mention an increase in velocity brings a sharp rise in recoil, and whether you notice it or not, it has a negative impact on ones shooting, causing flinching and/or head lifting. If you shoot lead 1500 fps seems to me way overloaded. If you shoot an inferior material like steel (iron) then I can see it because of the lack of density in the shot. And for those shooting fixed breech guns (pumps and break actions) the recoil is a bigger issue. Federal sells a 1 3/8oz. shell at 1500fps.
With a gas gun probably tolerable, but with an o/u those would knock your teeth loose! When pass shooting, blocking, or in general trying to stretch the range of a shotgun an increase in pellet size is much preferable to an increase in velocity.Just my opinion, and I always keep an open mind
Wing Shooter
Member
My dad hunted waterfowl. I have a lot of his very dated waterfowl loads. All were standard high base. If it worked then, it'll work now.
This same law of physics applies to big game cartridges.John, I don't think I mentioned any myth or misunderstanding. I simply stated that a fast shotcloud slows down much quicker than a slower one. And though it's true that the slow one will never pass the faster one, the speeds get MUCH closer the further from the muzzle, and I want to remind hunters that a faster fps at the muzzle is not necessarily a good indicator of being able to shoot game birds at a farther range. Although modern shotcups and buffering of the load help hold patterns together, high velocity still tends to spread patterns no bones about it. Not to mention an increase in velocity brings a sharp rise in recoil, and whether you notice it or not, it has a negative impact on ones shooting, causing flinching and/or head lifting. If you shoot lead 1500 fps seems to me way overloaded. If you shoot an inferior material like steel (iron) then I can see it because of the lack of density in the shot. And for those shooting fixed breech guns (pumps and break actions) the recoil is a bigger issue. Federal sells a 1 3/8oz. shell at 1500fps.
Just my opinion, and I always keep an open mind
A5 Sweet 16
Well-known member
Here's a copy/paste from the "lead deuces" thread...
Just out of curiosity, I checked my ballistics program to see how much effective pellet range you gain by bumping the muzzle velocity from 1300 to 1500 fps, which for any given load weight increases recoil nearly 30%.
With #2 lead, it only gains you 8 yds on a goose (& is, of course, illegal). Whereas simply increasing to #1 lead at 1300 gains you 11 yds.
With #5 lead, it only gains you 6 yds on a pheasant. Whereas simply increasing to #4 lead at 1300 gains you 12 yds.
With #3 steel, it only gains you 5 yds on a pheasant. Whereas simply increasing to #2 steel at 1300 gains you 8 yds.
Usually it's much easier to increase effective range & maintain a decent pattern (& easier on your shoulder) by increasing 1 shot size.
Just out of curiosity, I checked my ballistics program to see how much effective pellet range you gain by bumping the muzzle velocity from 1300 to 1500 fps, which for any given load weight increases recoil nearly 30%.
With #2 lead, it only gains you 8 yds on a goose (& is, of course, illegal). Whereas simply increasing to #1 lead at 1300 gains you 11 yds.
With #5 lead, it only gains you 6 yds on a pheasant. Whereas simply increasing to #4 lead at 1300 gains you 12 yds.
With #3 steel, it only gains you 5 yds on a pheasant. Whereas simply increasing to #2 steel at 1300 gains you 8 yds.
Usually it's much easier to increase effective range & maintain a decent pattern (& easier on your shoulder) by increasing 1 shot size.
gimruis
Well-known member
I saw that guy shoot a couple times in person before he died. My Father went to high school with him.
He was 100% a Benelli guy too.
gimruis
Well-known member
They still make them. Its what I use when I can't find PS.
remy3424
Well-known member
Nice connection to him Gim. I would have loved to seen Tom shoot in-person. He is a person that perfected his "trade". I wonder how many cases of shells he shot annually, or in his life, it would be a staggering amount!
gimruis
Well-known member
I saw him once do a trick shot thing with a pistol grip shotgun. No stock. Do you know how hard it is to be accurate with a pistol grip shotgun? They're not designed to shoot flying clays. He still made it work.
20super90
Active member
Got a lead on 3 inch 20 gauge 1 1/4 5s. ?
gimruis
Well-known member
Lol I was more referring to 12 gauge but I'll keep my eyes open for ya from now on.
Birdman2
Well-known member
I think you are on to something. After doing a ton of research Boss may be "The" Boss I bought 3 boxes. I like the lighter load for my old SxS. Haven't tried them yet,. snow storms in SD stopped that this year.
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20super90
Active member
Thanks
John Singer
Well-known member
John, I don't think I mentioned any myth or misunderstanding. I simply stated that a fast shotcloud slows down much quicker than a slower one. And though it's true that the slow one will never pass the faster one, the speeds get MUCH closer the further from the muzzle, and I want to remind hunters that a faster fps at the muzzle is not necessarily a good indicator of being able to shoot game birds at a farther range. Although modern shotcups and buffering of the load help hold patterns together, high velocity still tends to spread patterns no bones about it. Not to mention an increase in velocity brings a sharp rise in recoil, and whether you notice it or not, it has a negative impact on ones shooting, causing flinching and/or head lifting. If you shoot lead 1500 fps seems to me way overloaded. If you shoot an inferior material like steel (iron) then I can see it because of the lack of density in the shot. And for those shooting fixed breech guns (pumps and break actions) the recoil is a bigger issue. Federal sells a 1 3/8oz. shell at 1500fps.
Just my opinion, and I always keep an open mind
Bob, I very much agree with much of what you are saying.
I do think there is an limit for velocity of each shot type. For example, lead shot velocity is most effective at velocities between 1200 and 1350 fps. Steel shot seems most effective between 1350 and 1450 fps.
Higher velocities greatly increase recoil with little or no benefit.
I have always felt that nothing positive comes to your shooting from recoil. Increased recoil negatively impacts shooting.
I get 5-6 birds a day hunting with my dad for 5 days straight, flushing birds without a dog. I need guaranteed killing power at distance and I need to sling a lot of lead. I've a lot of experience at multi-shot patterning technique- also know as skybusting, scattergunning or fire for effect. Therefore PS 3" #5s are my go to load out that I am confident in.
This goes along with needing a very soft shooting auto so I am desperate to get my Rem Versamax back in action. It went out this year again and I ended up running a Winchester SXP pump synthetic. I was black, blue, yellow, green and purple from the crook of my elbow to the knob on my collarbone. I did my best to keep the flinching down but some of the last few birds had to be taken from the hip.
I shoot a lot of birds over corn and a few times I've see a rain of pellets hitting the corn stalks a second after a hitting a bird going away. It happened most often when shooting lighter shells and it left me with the impression of them bouncing off the bird.
I'm sure I recall seeing a gunsmith that patterned turkey loads and chokes using thin metal aluminum plates. Not only would he count the number of pellet strikes, he would also micrometer the depth of the indentations in the head area with something like a bore gauge when testing at long ranges. This gave him both pattern density and penetration data. He put chokes through multiple guns and multiple loads and produced a very thorough cross section of gun/choke/load combinations that customers would pay money for. He would also produce a custom data set for a requested combination for a small fee for people who wanted to see a trial run of a combo before they made a purchase. That's something I would love to see with some common pheasant loads.
This goes along with needing a very soft shooting auto so I am desperate to get my Rem Versamax back in action. It went out this year again and I ended up running a Winchester SXP pump synthetic. I was black, blue, yellow, green and purple from the crook of my elbow to the knob on my collarbone. I did my best to keep the flinching down but some of the last few birds had to be taken from the hip.
I shoot a lot of birds over corn and a few times I've see a rain of pellets hitting the corn stalks a second after a hitting a bird going away. It happened most often when shooting lighter shells and it left me with the impression of them bouncing off the bird.
I'm sure I recall seeing a gunsmith that patterned turkey loads and chokes using thin metal aluminum plates. Not only would he count the number of pellet strikes, he would also micrometer the depth of the indentations in the head area with something like a bore gauge when testing at long ranges. This gave him both pattern density and penetration data. He put chokes through multiple guns and multiple loads and produced a very thorough cross section of gun/choke/load combinations that customers would pay money for. He would also produce a custom data set for a requested combination for a small fee for people who wanted to see a trial run of a combo before they made a purchase. That's something I would love to see with some common pheasant loads.
gimruis
Well-known member
LOL c'mon
Have enjoyed this thread; If you take the time to scour through a few hundred Randy Wakeman articles under his wing shooting tab, there are articles that cover everything brought up here; spherical vs non spherical pellets; penetration and strikes required on game birds; the energy/penetration at distance to insure a clean kill; his data against Tom Roeser’s lead shot to steel shot size (Wakeman uses data to suggest dropping 3 sizes in steel to the equivalent lead shot); shot hardness & plating, etc. plenty of other good Wakeman reviews worth a read.
Confidence in gun and ammo was mentioned earlier & I agree - a huge intangible
Then there’s the hunting conditions and each hunters shooting style - and the ammo selection to match
I prefer close ranging dogs, so they are trained accordingly; therefore 3/4 of our flushes are within 25 yards - and most of those closer; IC & 5 shot are the first two loads; 4 shot the next three. Buying good ammo does make a difference, especially at distance.
Confidence in gun and ammo was mentioned earlier & I agree - a huge intangible
Then there’s the hunting conditions and each hunters shooting style - and the ammo selection to match
I prefer close ranging dogs, so they are trained accordingly; therefore 3/4 of our flushes are within 25 yards - and most of those closer; IC & 5 shot are the first two loads; 4 shot the next three. Buying good ammo does make a difference, especially at distance.
A5 Sweet 16
Well-known member
Most times (for shots, say, 40 yds or less), I agree with Wakeman's suggestion that with steel, you go 3 shot sizes bigger than lead.
Tom Roster's 2 size rule simply isn't sufficient much of the time.
But for longer shots (45-55 yds), even 3 sizes isn't enough.
By the math, you have to go 5 sizes bigger! If muzzle velocity is the same.
Or you can go 4 sizes & increase muzzle velocity 150-200 fps (which much of the time is the case with factory steel load velocity).
Those are the 2 most realistic ways to achieve 1.5" of ballistic gel penetration (commonly accepted as the required penetration for ducks/pheasants) on those longer shots. 2-3 sizes doesn't cut it. Lead is so ballistically superior to steel, it's not even funny. (It really isn't.)
Tom Roster's 2 size rule simply isn't sufficient much of the time.
But for longer shots (45-55 yds), even 3 sizes isn't enough.
By the math, you have to go 5 sizes bigger! If muzzle velocity is the same.
Or you can go 4 sizes & increase muzzle velocity 150-200 fps (which much of the time is the case with factory steel load velocity).
Those are the 2 most realistic ways to achieve 1.5" of ballistic gel penetration (commonly accepted as the required penetration for ducks/pheasants) on those longer shots. 2-3 sizes doesn't cut it. Lead is so ballistically superior to steel, it's not even funny. (It really isn't.)
birddude
Well-known member
Pete don't take this personal please but 6 oz of lead in the air is not a substitute for 1.25 well placed. Learn your affective range and don't skybust. A bird will die of gang green with one shot in it.