Surrogator for sage grouse?

W

wingshot

New member
Interesting concept eh? I haven't heard any discussion on using surrogators for wild sage grouse but since the population is down so low and sage grouse have such a hard time reproducing is it a possible idea that a boost in the hatch may help the problem?
 
I think the main factors limiting sage grouse are over grazing of sage flats, and fence lines in historic leks. Once cheatgrass takes over sage lands the quality of the land starts to plummet fast.:mad:
 
This is more than a bit out from under my umbrella of knowledge but, besides the habitat problems, I understand that they are very susceptible to the West Nile Virus.
 
quail hound said:
I think the main factors limiting sage grouse are over grazing of sage flats, and fence lines in historic leks. Once cheatgrass takes over sage lands the quality of the land starts to plummet fast.:mad:
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Ya. There are a lot of obvious factors that are even proven factors by wildlife officials. I was just thinking that maybe a surrogator could be a way to think outside the box since over grazing and oil rigs are not going to stop. Too much money in those businesses to care about birds and habitat.
 
I totally understand where you are coming from, everyone should get to see a sage rooster displaying on his familiar lek. Our 2 day draw only season is on the chopping block if something isn't done. On a good note California did just get some conservation money to try and turn things around.
 
Prairie Drifter said:
This is more than a bit out from under my umbrella of knowledge but, besides the habitat problems, I understand that they are very susceptible to the West Nile Virus.
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One wonders if this will affect our sport in the future. It is always in the back of my mind. And when we get cases right down the street here it tends to make you think. I hope they come up with a pesticide that alows the killing of mosquitos again. I know nothing about those birds either. You may be one of the first to try.:D Good luck
 
wingshot said:
Ya. There are a lot of obvious factors that are even proven factors by wildlife officials. I was just thinking that maybe a surrogator could be a way to think outside the box since over grazing and oil rigs are not going to stop. Too much money in those businesses to care about birds and habitat.
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Wingshot, I mean no disrespect but I see a common line of thinking here I must simply challenge for the betterment of the species (whichever species it happens to be. Quail, grouse, pheasant, deer, etc). Declining bird numbers usually relates to declining habitat. Why then do we look to the "BING" solution like the magical surrogator to think it will address the root cause issue?

I am scratching my head here wondering why there should even be surrogator posts or pen raised bird posts allowed in the Habitat Forum?
 
I think we have determined the surrogator is a glorified brooder and unlikely to acomplish anything beyond enrichment of the seller. Sage grouse have been raised in captivity, but it is extremely difficult. The requirements of our native grouse are very challenging, most will simply not tolerate development of any kind, roads, oil drilling, overgrazing, are all trouble. I recently read a heart breaking article about lesser prairie chickens which described as common for birds to be killed by flying into barbed wire fences or telephone/electric transmission lines. Studies on greater prairie chickens reveals unwillingness to nest within a quarter mile of a man made structure. The research on sage grouse is late to the party, but you can guess what will find, based on the research on the other native grouse, with the additional problem of specialized evolved diet. These birds do not adapt to change. They will simply vanish, and we will all be the poorer for it. This is purely a habitat problem in the purest example, releasing a few 5 week old birds, won't fix it. Setting aside vast areas of BLM, and national grasslands, off limits to overgrazing, and oil prospecting/drilling will. Anything less we and the birds lose.
 
oldandnew said:
I think we have determined the surrogator is a glorified brooder and unlikely to acomplish anything beyond enrichment of the seller. Sage grouse have been raised in captivity, but it is extremely difficult. The requirements of our native grouse are very challenging, most will simply not tolerate development of any kind, roads, oil drilling, overgrazing, are all trouble. I recently read a heart breaking article about lesser prairie chickens which described as common for birds to be killed by flying into barbed wire fences or telephone/electric transmission lines. Studies on greater prairie chickens reveals unwillingness to nest within a quarter mile of a man made structure. The research on sage grouse is late to the party, but you can guess what will find, based on the research on the other native grouse, with the additional problem of specialized evolved diet. These birds do not adapt to change. They will simply vanish, and we will all be the poorer for it. This is purely a habitat problem in the purest example, releasing a few 5 week old birds, won't fix it. Setting aside vast areas of BLM, and national grasslands, off limits to overgrazing, and oil prospecting/drilling will. Anything less we and the birds lose.
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Extremely good post O&N! To understand the level of this affect, prairie chickens won't nest within 1/2 mile of vertical structure. That equates to a loss of 640 acres of nesting habitat for every oil well, every power pole, every wind turbine, every cel tower. As you drive down the road through your favorite habitat, count the number of these and other structures you see scattered across your habitat. We are dealing with a significant loss. How can you call wind energy "GREEN" if it is leading to the extermination of a species?
 
Prairie Drifter, I am equally dismayed by the annual burning cycle in the flint hills. Proven to completely disrupt the greater prairie chicken nesting season. Used to be a two or three year burn, now annual, with K-State out trumpeting the benefits, of more pounds of gain per acre, probably true, but at what cost? An entire ecosystem? What are the long term affects, short term are fewer and stressed prairie chickens and Kansas City's worst air quality days of the year. I was hoping KDWP would be the voice on the other side, to get the info out there. I know it's a political football, but if KDWP doesn't stand up for Kansas wildlife, who?
 
You're totally right. My own school, KSU, has caused significant damage to the flint hills with their "Early Intensive Stocking" program. In the last few years it has been shown that the same gains and income goals can be reached without the annual burning. Just think of the gains chickens could make if 1/3 of the flint hills were left in nesting cover each year! Any time you use the same management practice for years in a row, somethings are selected for and somethings are selected against. I'm guessing that either way the diversity that was once the pride of the flint hills is being diminished. I know the KDWP is trying to make inroads into this management philosophy, but the time it has been entrenched makes it harder to oppose. Landowner rights is a big thing in Kansas and , when it comes down to it, the private sector holds the reigns (credit or blame) on their side of the fence.
 
I am glad there is awareness and efforts being made. Yes, long term habits and practices take a lot of effort to change, and sometimes require the impetous of financial gain or loss to get serious consideration. Thankfully the practice has not spread everywhere, in North east Kansas, thanks to the CRP, I have seen more Prairie Chickens in the last few years than the previous 30. As far east as western Brown County. Never expected to see that again in my lifetime.
 
Surrogators Would not help the Sage Grouse. Sage grouse simply can't handle human intrusion. Stuff like fences and 2 tracks doesn't seem to bother them. And seem to get along fine with cattle. I'm just talking about the areas I know about in WY and MT. where there are large expanses of good Sage Brush with out a lot of human activity, good news is, Sage Grouse are doing quite well.
 
QH, Yeah, no doubt fences can be a pain for most all wildlife. And no doubt the changed view on predation and predators the last 20 years is adding to the decline in species such as Sage Grouse.
I'm just saying the places I know of that have good Sage Grouse populations have cattle grazing, fences, and 2 tracks used by ranchers, hunters etc.

Montana's 2011 Sage Grouse season runs for 60 days, 2 bird daily limit.
And it would not be a problem limiting out daily, if one choose to do so, and know a little about where to go.

I hate woven wire fences, and believe they should be taken out.
It's interesting that old fencing [usually 3 loose rusty barbs] on public land is being replaced by new tight, sharp 4 wire with bigger wooden corners and braces. :( So, I don't know?:confused:
 
I think cheatgrass is the biggest down fall of our sagebrush lands and subsequently sage grouse, at least in the great basin. Mnmt, I know you run cattle and I am not trying to blame this on ranchers, we all know proper grazing practices actually benefit the land, but over grazing does help exasperated the problem of cheatgrass. I think the BLM has let this happen on our public lands for too long. Here is a very good article about wild fire and cheat taking over the ecosystem.

http://www.hcn.org/issues/179/5809
 
Well if cheatgrass is the result of over grazing in your area, the whole place should be over run with chuckars. Seems like the the only place I ever saw chuckars is running like hell, uphill, even on a small incline, on a talus, volcanic rock, and cheatgrass infested landscape. Even had cheatgrass sprouts and seeds in their crops. Probably have better luck surrogating chuckars, though my opinion there is nothing as sorry a flyer as a pen raised chuckar, they seem to take an awful lot of flight training to get competent to be a challenge, or avoid predators, seem to get tame and fat easy too!
 
Oh yes the chukar are there, at least where there are no juniper or pinyon trees. The great basin is now famous for chukar hunting, but I don't think trading a native species for a non native is a good deal for anyone. I love chukar hunting, but they can keep their steep talus slopes and cheat and stay out of the sage lands.
 
I certainly wouldn't trade the sage grouse for all the non-native chuckars in the west. But I fear it's the way of the world, or should I say such as we have made the world. We change ecosystems for the worse with little thought and then decry the result, extinction of a species which evolved over a thousand years. I believe the Sage Hen to be a United States issue, I am not sure they exist anywhere else, possibly a few in Canada. Looks like we need to protect the sage, to save the sage grouse. Where I hunted for years, the sage was like a forest, with some as tall as trees, some ankle high, with many different subspecies, sage grouse used it all. Find a trickle of a stream or a few catch basins for water in an area and it was not uncommon to see 100's of sage grouse in a short walk. They hold for a pointing dog great, and are not crafty. I now feel like they are a trophy species, and a mature cock is certainly all that. I see that Wyoming is allowing the harvest of up to 75 eggs to try captive rearing, of course you have to have sage to feed them and apparently mealworms to keep them interested and picking at the sage. The article points out the difficulty in captive rearing.
 
oldandnew said:
I certainly wouldn't trade the sage grouse for all the non-native chuckars in the west. But I fear it's the way of the world, or should I say such as we have made the world. We change ecosystems for the worse with little thought and then decry the result, extinction of a species which evolved over a thousand years. I believe the Sage Hen to be a United States issue, I am not sure they exist anywhere else, possibly a few in Canada. Looks like we need to protect the sage, to save the sage grouse. Where I hunted for years, the sage was like a forest, with some as tall as trees, some ankle high, with many different subspecies, sage grouse used it all. Find a trickle of a stream or a few catch basins for water in an area and it was not uncommon to see 100's of sage grouse in a short walk. They hold for a pointing dog great, and are not crafty. I now feel like they are a trophy species, and a mature cock is certainly all that. I see that Wyoming is allowing the harvest of up to 75 eggs to try captive rearing, of course you have to have sage to feed them and apparently mealworms to keep them interested and picking at the sage. The article points out the difficulty in captive rearing.
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Great post, I agree completely.:thumbsup: If we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it. Something needs to happen lest the sage grouse meets the same fate as the heath hen and the passenger pigeon.
 
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