There are no double barrel guns in my safe, just some pumps and semi autos that always do a great job. I've had my newest shotgun, a semi auto for about 10 years, so nothing else said, I deserve a new gun whether I need one or not, right? Reading so much about O/Us and SxSs in this forum spawned my desire but I can't decide which one. (I can't have both). Ever since watching Dez Young on TV some years ago I got it in my head that the side by side was the epitome of the upland gun...... but should I choose a SxS over an over/under??
Side by Side or Over Under?
- Thread starter BenBelly
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onpoint
Active member
Depends if you can shoot a SxS. There's a reason O/U's are so popular. A SxS is tough for many to shoot with it's wide sight plain. Also, quality SxS choices are fewer and far between. If you want new, your going to spend $2,000 to $3,500 for a good new one. You can find a used Browning BSS or Ithaca SKB for $1000 on up. They are neat guns and if you dress the part, can be a regular gentleman's gun.
I prefer the O/U because I never have shot a SxS very well.
No matter what, get a quality gun with a good reputation like Browning, Beretta or the likes of. A $1,000 seems like a lot of money but in a double gun. That's a entry level gun and in many cases those guns can and do fail more often. Not to say that some don't like their gun that is in that price range. I just advise people to set their standards a little high when going with a double gun. I have seen people buy a $399 O/U just to say they now have a O/U. That's not a way anybody should approach this equation IMO. A reliable long lasting pump gun could cost $399 but the same could not be said for a double gun I'm afraid.
Good Luck
I prefer the O/U because I never have shot a SxS very well.
No matter what, get a quality gun with a good reputation like Browning, Beretta or the likes of. A $1,000 seems like a lot of money but in a double gun. That's a entry level gun and in many cases those guns can and do fail more often. Not to say that some don't like their gun that is in that price range. I just advise people to set their standards a little high when going with a double gun. I have seen people buy a $399 O/U just to say they now have a O/U. That's not a way anybody should approach this equation IMO. A reliable long lasting pump gun could cost $399 but the same could not be said for a double gun I'm afraid.
Good Luck
Uncle Buck
New member
While I acknowledge the sight plane issue as valid, I do not understand it as I do not "aim" at anything when shooting my doubles. All I really see is the bird and if my cheek is down where it is supposed to be, the bird goes down. On close straight aways I have to wait a bit sometimes to get the bird in the range for the pattern and I do make sure the bird is on top of the barrel and aligned. With close pointing dogs on pheasants in (generally) heavy cover straight aways are common.
I shot Browning Superposed 12 and 20 for many years, along with my first sxs, a Grulla 12. Shot well enough with the Brownings, but not many guns have put down as many birds as the Grulla as I shot it for 37 years in the Great State of South Dakota's pheasant fields. I had a 20ga. Ruger Red Label that I did not shoot well all the time as I tended to cant the gun to the left. I think it was the smaller stock and grip as I have shot a 12 without the same problem. Kinda wish I had kept the Superposed 20 as it was a little heavier and I could shoot it.
This year I shot the 16 Uggie early in the season and the American Arms Derby 25 late, which seems odd. I shoot both well, the Uggie with 28 in barrels and the AA 26. That 20 can come around too quick sometimes, but I think I missed one bird all year with it.
Go with what works for you. One reason to buy a cheaper gun like a Stoeger O/U is to see how it works for you. A cheap sxs is likely to be much heavier and not as sweet swinging as a truly quality gun. The CZ might be a good place to start. The Dickinson (S&W GOLD ELITE) can be had at Cabela's for around $1,400. Have not heard anything bad about them and would like to try one. The SKB and Uggies are also good choices.
I shot Browning Superposed 12 and 20 for many years, along with my first sxs, a Grulla 12. Shot well enough with the Brownings, but not many guns have put down as many birds as the Grulla as I shot it for 37 years in the Great State of South Dakota's pheasant fields. I had a 20ga. Ruger Red Label that I did not shoot well all the time as I tended to cant the gun to the left. I think it was the smaller stock and grip as I have shot a 12 without the same problem. Kinda wish I had kept the Superposed 20 as it was a little heavier and I could shoot it.
This year I shot the 16 Uggie early in the season and the American Arms Derby 25 late, which seems odd. I shoot both well, the Uggie with 28 in barrels and the AA 26. That 20 can come around too quick sometimes, but I think I missed one bird all year with it.
Go with what works for you. One reason to buy a cheaper gun like a Stoeger O/U is to see how it works for you. A cheap sxs is likely to be much heavier and not as sweet swinging as a truly quality gun. The CZ might be a good place to start. The Dickinson (S&W GOLD ELITE) can be had at Cabela's for around $1,400. Have not heard anything bad about them and would like to try one. The SKB and Uggies are also good choices.
Oh boy now that is a loaded question. SxS or O/U. Kinda like asking who makes the best pickup truck.
For myself the reason I prefer a SxS over a O/U is because:
I like the sight plane. While I agree we shoot a shotgun and aim a rifle. I still prefer the wider to tapering rib on my SxS.
I like the swing of the gun. Having shot SKB and Beretta O/U I can say I love them both. I can shoot them both very well. But I get a better swing trough with a SxS. Why I can not tell you. I can say I am not a lead the bird kinda shooter. I prefer to get on the bird and swing past while shooting the weapon.
Fit is better. This is perhaps (IMHO) the most important aspect of a shotgun. I find the SxS to "tuck in" just perfectly for myself. If anyone has ever hefted a shotgun and knows the feeling of throwing it up to your shoulder then having it "feel" like an old pair of hunting boots...Well that is the fit I am looking for. The cast seems to be better set for me over the O/U's I have shot.
On the downside. A good SxS will cost more then a good O/U.
With all of the above being said. I would suggest a person wanting to make the switch from a repeating shotgun to a two shot. Go with a O/U. It is easier to make the transition to a O/U than a SxS
For myself the reason I prefer a SxS over a O/U is because:
I like the sight plane. While I agree we shoot a shotgun and aim a rifle. I still prefer the wider to tapering rib on my SxS.
I like the swing of the gun. Having shot SKB and Beretta O/U I can say I love them both. I can shoot them both very well. But I get a better swing trough with a SxS. Why I can not tell you. I can say I am not a lead the bird kinda shooter. I prefer to get on the bird and swing past while shooting the weapon.
Fit is better. This is perhaps (IMHO) the most important aspect of a shotgun. I find the SxS to "tuck in" just perfectly for myself. If anyone has ever hefted a shotgun and knows the feeling of throwing it up to your shoulder then having it "feel" like an old pair of hunting boots...Well that is the fit I am looking for. The cast seems to be better set for me over the O/U's I have shot.
On the downside. A good SxS will cost more then a good O/U.
With all of the above being said. I would suggest a person wanting to make the switch from a repeating shotgun to a two shot. Go with a O/U. It is easier to make the transition to a O/U than a SxS
cheesy
Well-known member
Dad had a cheap SXS when I was a kid, a cheap Spanish import, pistol grip double triggers 20 guage. I shot a pile of pheasants and quail with that gun. He shot a lot of skeet with that gun and eventually shot it loose. Didn't hold up like a higher dollar gun would have.
One of these days I'll have a quality SXS, but have decided not to buy a cheap one just to have one.
For an equal quality SXS over an O/U, paying double wouldn't be out of the question.
One of these days I'll have a quality SXS, but have decided not to buy a cheap one just to have one.
For an equal quality SXS over an O/U, paying double wouldn't be out of the question.
quail hound
Moderator
I can't think of any gun I'd rather be carrying than a nice balanced SxS. My next one will be either a .410 or a 20ga English stock double trigger piece.
Well, there's no doubt that a good SxS is very viable has some outstanding qualities but it seems there are some issues preventing guys like me, inexperienced with the SxS, from shooting it well. That and since I like trap and skeet it seems practical to get the Over/Under first. The O/U will satisfy the urge for a new gun and will be a step in the right direction. I'll take my time, learn more about SxSs and look for the best deal to ease the damage to the wallet.
BTW, I've pretty much decided that my O/U should be 12 gauge but the jury is out on a side by side.
BTW, I've pretty much decided that my O/U should be 12 gauge but the jury is out on a side by side.
OnPoint nails it for me, pretty well! I have to confess though for nostalgia sake I wanted a SXS and bought one last year because it was on my "Bucket List". I want to learn to shoot a double. I do shootan O/U better but I hope that sentence becomes, "I shoot a SXS well too!" Time will tell! It was personal for me. I never had a nicely balanced SxS before to compare apples to apples. I absolutely love my 20 ga O/U SKB, and so far I like my 20 ga SxS.
I would probably go the otherway. O/u's are heavier by and large than sxs's. Also the depth of action in most models makes them clunkier in my opinion. So I would buy a 20 gauge over- under and a 12 sxs. If I wanted one of each. Light weight and balance are the defining characteristics of a doubles to me, so that's what I consider first. Weight is a factor in recoil remember, so if your going to shoot roman candles through it, it would be something to consider as well. That's one reason there are lots of AYA 10 ga. shotguns for sale cheap. Some cheaper doubles are like shooting a 2x4, the board might have better fit, finish, grade of wood, and recoil absorbing characteristics. But lots of excellent, lovingly used guns around at a good value. I'm talking hunting guns here, for target games, O/u's are the preference, higher weight, single sight plane, vent rib, and long barrels are the easiest to hit with, but will handicap you in the field. Enjoy the ride, look lots, the shopping is half the fun! Report back so we can enjoy vicariously.
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Elaborating on my reasons for deciding the O/U should be 12 g, not 20, understand that this would be my only O/U and will be used for trap/skeet plus upland. I prefer the 12, if for no other reason, for the higher pellet count. This wouldn't be my only upland gun, I like to use my light weight 20 gauge autoloader.
It makes sense to me that the SxS, at some point in the future, be a 20 or possibly a 16. For me a 28 doesn't seem practical.
It's interesting to see that there is a real demand for the SxS yet they are not easy to find. We know the SxS is a good hunter from our experience and because our fathers and grandfathers used them successfully. When I was a kid I read lots of stories in magazines like Field & Stream, Sports Afield, etc.,. about hunting with them and I wanted one. (It seems the stories in those magazinjes years ago were so much more interesting than those of today). I am pretty sure there are many more hunters using 2 barrel shotguns than clay shooters, so why are the SxSs so hard to find?
It makes sense to me that the SxS, at some point in the future, be a 20 or possibly a 16. For me a 28 doesn't seem practical.
It's interesting to see that there is a real demand for the SxS yet they are not easy to find. We know the SxS is a good hunter from our experience and because our fathers and grandfathers used them successfully. When I was a kid I read lots of stories in magazines like Field & Stream, Sports Afield, etc.,. about hunting with them and I wanted one. (It seems the stories in those magazinjes years ago were so much more interesting than those of today). I am pretty sure there are many more hunters using 2 barrel shotguns than clay shooters, so why are the SxSs so hard to find?
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Uncle Buck
New member
Actually, there are more sxs guns around now than there was say ten years ago. With some Franchi, Fausti and CZs showing up at some of the bigger retailers, there is some variety. The sxs comes and goes, and usually when they come back they have doubled in price. An SKB in good condition will be worth three to four times it's original price. My 16 ga AYA #2 Round Body was $3,200 about seven years ago----$5,600 now. I did not even shoot it this year.
The comments about the swing of a straight stock English style gun is so true. I started shooting sxs when I was seventeen, 46 years ago with the Grulla. Don't know how to shoot anything else(not true, have a SBE 12 I use on the no lead ground sometimes.) A few sub 12 ga. o/u guns can match the swing and weight, but so can some of the ultra-lite autos. I can walk all day with the 16 and 20ga sxs and never know I am carrying it. With some exceptions,(Parker and the old Fox) the American guns are heavy and have too much drop in the stock for my tastes. The 21s are mechanical masterpieces, but on the heavy side. The BSS ditto, but most have the beavertail fore arm that I do not care for--good first double tho. 23's likewise-- a basic 21 knockoff tho lighter. The 20's are decent.
The comments about the swing of a straight stock English style gun is so true. I started shooting sxs when I was seventeen, 46 years ago with the Grulla. Don't know how to shoot anything else(not true, have a SBE 12 I use on the no lead ground sometimes.) A few sub 12 ga. o/u guns can match the swing and weight, but so can some of the ultra-lite autos. I can walk all day with the 16 and 20ga sxs and never know I am carrying it. With some exceptions,(Parker and the old Fox) the American guns are heavy and have too much drop in the stock for my tastes. The 21s are mechanical masterpieces, but on the heavy side. The BSS ditto, but most have the beavertail fore arm that I do not care for--good first double tho. 23's likewise-- a basic 21 knockoff tho lighter. The 20's are decent.
Uncle Buck - It's good to hear the side by sides are not so scarce as I thought. I'll try to get a feel for them ASAP. Hopefully they won't cost too much more next year. There aren't a lot of well stocked gun shops here in California, I've been told the gun laws have caused many to fold or leave the state. There is, however, a great shop at the gun club about 40 miles from me. They have a big O/U inventory, new and used, I'll bet there are a few SxSs.
P.S. I am sold on a light 20 gauge sxs and I'll check out the 21s, 23s, etc.,. Thanks!!
P.S. I am sold on a light 20 gauge sxs and I'll check out the 21s, 23s, etc.,. Thanks!!
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berettadouble
Member
I've become a sxs convert, and nothing swings better for me. The O/U guns are just too heavy and the swing to open one up just seems odd to me. A sxs that fits well is the closest thing to a lightsaber you'll ever own.
I never understand the sighting plane argument, we should be looking at the bird anyway. The sxs is about swing and responsiveness to me. Its just right there.
The down side to them is once you've hunted with one all other guns feel like 2x4s comparitively speaking.
I never understand the sighting plane argument, we should be looking at the bird anyway. The sxs is about swing and responsiveness to me. Its just right there.
The down side to them is once you've hunted with one all other guns feel like 2x4s comparitively speaking.
onpoint
Active member
Not to make this a Ford vs Chevy thing but if that were the case, why has nearly every major gun maker dropped their SxS's from their line or severely limited what they do make?
I just can't get use to a forearm that is a sliver and I can't grip it or my hand having to open as wide as if I'm carrying a 4x4..the width of the barrels. I like a slim forearm like the Superposed Browning O/U. Also, I can't recall a SxS winning a major trap or skeet event in the last 50 or 60 years at least. They are great for nostalgia and old world tradition as "The Gentleman Gun" but that's where it ends for me. I'll take a quality stacked barrel gun anyday
quail hound
Moderator
I agree with the forearms Op. Can't stand beaver tails and I've never used a splinter forearm buy a semi beaver tail feels just right in my left hand.
berettadouble
Member
The 2x4 crack was directed more at autos and pumps, and not to say there aren't good ones at all. Most importantly the gun that fits you is the one you should use, I think everyone will agree there. For campfire discussion I'll make my case.
Popularity shouldn't be mistaken for superiority. Trap and skeet is a whole different ballgame IMO with the added weight and feel a positive and alot of predictability in the target. Where the SXS shines is the speed of bringing to bear from a field position (again subjective). THe sxs can be ordered to suit, and I agree the beavertails are not my deal. I believe the British got the lines down for a proper bird gun a long time ago and that principal is what I stick with- splinters and english stocks. One thing about OU guns in thsi country is I never understood why english stocks werent more popular, the upland style Citoris are my hands down favorite of the Brownings.
As far as why there arent more- I think it is mostly cost and skill. There seems to be alot more to a sxs manufacturing wise. If you go back farther in history you will find plenty of competition guns and far more sxs guns afield. What did in Parker, Elsie, and teh others was cost of maunfacturing.
Popularity shouldn't be mistaken for superiority. Trap and skeet is a whole different ballgame IMO with the added weight and feel a positive and alot of predictability in the target. Where the SXS shines is the speed of bringing to bear from a field position (again subjective). THe sxs can be ordered to suit, and I agree the beavertails are not my deal. I believe the British got the lines down for a proper bird gun a long time ago and that principal is what I stick with- splinters and english stocks. One thing about OU guns in thsi country is I never understood why english stocks werent more popular, the upland style Citoris are my hands down favorite of the Brownings.
As far as why there arent more- I think it is mostly cost and skill. There seems to be alot more to a sxs manufacturing wise. If you go back farther in history you will find plenty of competition guns and far more sxs guns afield. What did in Parker, Elsie, and teh others was cost of maunfacturing.
I would agree, with the stipulation that O/u's were always and continue to be the most expensive gun to manufacture CORRECTLY. I am not ashamed to say that there are a lot of clunky O/U's as well as SxS's. O/U's built by Boss and Woodward take a backseat in racy lines and grace to no gun. Competition guns are as you describe, exactly, specialty items designed for a specific game. One point to consider when discussing popularity, is that O/U became a status symbol, more than a practical choice. Sportsmen declared they had "made it", demonstrating their commitment and by amassing the then staggering amount necessary to purchase a Browning O/U. Because these guys had risen through the ranks, with pumps and autoloaders, when they learned to shoot, the O/U with it's single, usually vented sight plane was a much easier adjustment. Almost all of us Americans learned to sight rather than point a shotgun, it's the wrong approach,but there it is. SxS's must be pointed as an extension of your eyes. O/u's also are popular due to the broader canvas they allow for engraving to further impress the peasants and create a work of art as much as a shooting iron. I weaned myself on to S x S's a long time ago, and have never allowed my daughters to shoot anything else afield. I have some O/U's, I admire them and handle them, but mostly they sit in the storage locker.
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berettadouble
Member
Alot of sxs has gotten to be a lost art as far as manufacturing. I recall a picture of a gigantic pile of barrels for the Ruger Gold Label project, all rejected, taller than a man.
I wonder if there wasnt a "generational" thing also, with folks changing to OU from SXS at some point just because it was cooler or a symbol of a new generation vs their fathers guns. I'm about 40 and OU was very much a status symbol when I was a kid. I think of another post I read from some kid talking about "Grandpa guns"- that would be Ithaca 37s and Rem 1100s and the like- while espousing his love of the Benelli Nova.
I fear for the future.......***shudder***.
I wonder if there wasnt a "generational" thing also, with folks changing to OU from SXS at some point just because it was cooler or a symbol of a new generation vs their fathers guns. I'm about 40 and OU was very much a status symbol when I was a kid. I think of another post I read from some kid talking about "Grandpa guns"- that would be Ithaca 37s and Rem 1100s and the like- while espousing his love of the Benelli Nova.
I fear for the future.......***shudder***.
Uncle Buck
New member
Right on!(that dates me).
By the way, there were a lot of Win. Model 21 trap guns that were very popular in their time. Also the Spanish make sxs specifically for live piegan shooting, which requires a quick two shots. A sxs is essentially an extension of your arm, co-ordinated by the eye on the target. In baseball, you look at the ball, not the bat.
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