How do we reconcile fair chase and a chance to escape, with a pointed pheasant? I can count on one hand the number of pointed roosters who got away over 50 years. Driven shooting is not hunting it's shooting, the sport is in the shot opportunities presented. Driven off a high hill shots are full bore on both pheasant and grouse, at 40-60 yards and a full head of steam. Lots escape, Far more than a pointed bird. The russian deal doesn't look much like sport to me, but I don't know if that was the point. I will say it's a huge remote nearly roadless wilderness, and access is by boat or at your own risk road, judging from the pictures. I agree that most of the celebrity Nugent type US hunt show guys are in my opinion insufferable. How do you produce a sporting opportunity with a big clumbsey dimwitted bird like those depicted?
Russian hunters!
- Thread starter Thunturi
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How do we reconcile fair chase and a chance to escape, with a pointed pheasant? I can count on one hand the number of pointed roosters who got away over 50 years. Driven shooting is not hunting it's shooting, the sport is in the shot opportunities presented. Driven off a high hill shots are full bore on both pheasant and grouse, at 40-60 yards and a full head of steam. Lots escape, Far more than a pointed bird. The russian deal doesn't look much like sport to me, but I don't know if that was the point. I will say it's a huge remote nearly roadless wilderness, and access is by boat or at your own risk road, judging from the pictures. I agree that most of the celebrity Nugent type US hunt show guys are in my opinion insufferable. How do you produce a sporting opportunity with a big clumbsey dimwitted bird like those depicted?
carptom1
Well-known member
Really? You would compare running birds down with a motorboat to hunting pointed pheasants? Even in my distorted reality that's a stretch. I don't hunt behind pointers anymore, but in my memory I do remember it being a bunch of work, hardly like shooting from a boat traveling at the same speed that a bird can fly. As stated earlier, I think the laziness of the hunters is what got me, and that transcends any culture.
1pheas4
Moderator
I think you hit it on the head with the word "culture". How (some) hunt in Russia is their business.
In the Middle East animal rights groups banned traditional bear dog demonstrations with the use of live bears. What business is it of anyone's to tell another country what they can or can't do in regards to their bear dogs and bear dog demonstrations? --Again, it's not our business.
Keep in mind too, we (U.S) use boats to seek out game here in the U.S. In some states you can shoot game on the shore line from a boat.
Also, I've seen guys drive up and down the Missouri river shore line looking for beavers to shoot. Okay, the boat is slowed down prior to the shot, but they are still shooting from a boat.
We do the same with jumping ducks too. Of coarse not moving with the speed of these Russians in the video, but consider, if they take the time to stop, the game is long gone. If their motive is to gather as much food as possible, to stop isn't an option.
There are plenty of videos out there of Russians hunting pheasants behind dogs too. Doing just as we do. They are not all that much different than us.
....There are plenty of videos out there of Russians hunting pheasants behind dogs too. Doing just as we do. They are not all that much different than us.
When I see 4-wheelers slicing thru a stand of switch at speed shooting flushed or scampering pheasants then I may then see more of a similarity regarding the two hunting cultures.
Otherwise, a see far more differences...good differences, for a Future.
The capercaillie is traditionally hunted by stalk....moving as the bird calls.
I see that also different than motorboats and ducks.
The devil is in the particulars of any hunting activity.
First of all you vastly underestimate the difficulty of actually hitting anything from a moving boat
Secondly would it make a difference if we pulled the boat over and walked up the bank a few feet and popped the bird either sitting on the bank, in the water, or sitting on a tree stump. That happens all over the US. I doubt it makes any difference to the bird! They are less wary than a barnyard chicken. These guys are firing away, and the birds are sitting there unaware of what's going on. Again I ask, how do we make a sporting proposition out of that? I have the termerity to compare a pointed pheasant, yes I am aware of the difficulty in cornering a pheasant by a pointing dog, but once pointed, with no escape but flight, it's the same anticlimatic act. These Russians took pictures of the water, leaves, all sorts of scenery. Do we assume they value the outdoors less than we do? We suck turkeys in with motion decoys, attract waterfowl with a variety of mechanical contraptions, plant corn and flood it to bait an area, plant switchgrass, and food plots to provide holding cover for pheasants so they sit rather than run, shoot semi-auto's with 5 or more shells where legal. Some places this would be considered bad form. If you walk out and shoot a displaying turkey on the ground, it's a trophy, some russian pots a grouse out of a tree, from a ( as the USFWS describes "a Motorized conveyance"), and we are outraged. As bad as we claim the russians are, they sure have a lot more cappercaille than the rest of europe combined, so they must be doing something right.Early in my hunting days and before, the soil bank days, I saw people tie a long cable between two pickups with people in the back shooting the pheasants as the two pickups drove slowly in a paralel direction. It was quite effective as I recall. I think the statute of limits has expired by now but in my high school days we would put some bales in the back of a pickup and two gunners with another gunner at the passenger window and a driver. We would find a smooth alfalfa field or rye field and away we would go. In those days the ground would just move when you got into a bunch of jack rabbits They were worth a buck or two and it would not be tough to get 25 to fifty a night. Dads pickup and gas it was quite profitable. In those days jack rabbits were so thick that they would kill trees and do alot of crop damage. It probably would not pass for proper hunting today but it was effective and it sure was fun. I would like to do that one more time.
carptom1
Well-known member
Yea my uncle used to call it " rat patrol" after the tv series
wisturkeyhunter
New member
Hell I'd like to take that boat ride with my 870 and all my pockets fills with shells if it's legal,and it's as remote as it appears.
That may be more likely related to the volume of folks per acre and the total habitat acres available rather than to any practice of game management or choice of hunting maneouver.
But, if we compare the least in any society to their counterpart in another then any difference is slight....especially if one factors in the days gone by.
Supposedly tho, we all have learned from earlier mistakes regarding game and hunting affects in the United States...I see no reason not to suggest that the Russians may want to consider the folly of some of their actions today and so learn in a manner that carries less of a future downside.
Not sure ducks will remain available to be NASCARed down a crick forever.
That should be the largest consideration...not any assumed right to kill.....in any manner currently acceptable or traditional....or amazingly legal.
carptom1
Well-known member
I think you hit it on the head with the word "culture". How (some) hunt in Russia is their business.
In the Middle East animal rights groups banned traditional bear dog demonstrations with the use of live bears. What business is it of anyone's to tell another country what they can or can't do in regards to their bear dogs and bear dog demonstrations? --Again, it's not our business.
Keep in mind too, we (U.S) use boats to seek out game here in the U.S. In some states you can shoot game on the shore line from a boat.
Also, I've seen guys drive up and down the Missouri river shore line looking for beavers to shoot. Okay, the boat is slowed down prior to the shot, but they are still shooting from a boat.
We do the same with jumping ducks too. Of coarse not moving with the speed of these Russians in the video, but consider, if they take the time to stop, the game is long gone. If their motive is to gather as much food as possible, to stop isn't an option.
There are plenty of videos out there of Russians hunting pheasants behind dogs too. Doing just as we do. They are not all that much different than us.
Your point that the game would be gone if you brought the boat to a stop is lost on me. So it is ok to shoot because it may get away? That is why they call it hunting not "getting". As far as the animal rights groups, like any other cause they are not all bad. But being you do what you do, I am sure you have had more bad experiences than me. But based on the middle east's treatment of people in general, specifically women, I would have to see how the bears were generally treated before I could comment on my support of intervention.
But since I am wasting my time having this stupid argument with people i probably will never meet
I will bring up the second part of my problem. This is with shooting the game with a small caliber rifle. At least using something that will dispatch quickly, or be within lethal range. Many of the birds took multiple shots to kill, and one flew off after being shot two or three times. To me this is as bad as guys getting on here and bragging of their 60yard shots on birds. But how many get wounded only to die later? I know. I know. But Carptom, haven't you ever shot a pheasant that didn't die? Or had to put another round in a deer that wouldn't go down? Of course. But that had far less to do with weapon selection and far more to do with my skill as a marksman. I guess I am surprised that there are only a few of us that don't care for this. I suppose if they were shooting pheasants from an airplane, or quail from a go- cart it would make a difference. After all it is just a dumb ugly bird.wisturkeyhunter
New member
Some animal rights tendencies on this board it seems.
quail hound
Moderator
Sporting? No. Something I would care to do? Nope, but I doubt this type of hunting is carried out for sport. Beautiful country though and destruction of habitat had more to do with the extinction of the passenger pigeon and heath hen than market gunning.
wisturkeyhunter
New member
I shoot birds for fun no 2 ways around it. I bird hunt because I enjoy it.
Certainly not going to say somebody hunting for food is less respectful than me who does it for fun even if I do it over dogs on foot.
What history are you talking about? Care to post a link or point me towards any kind of info that talks about capercaillie's in russia getting gunned down to the point that the population suffered.
Certainly not going to say somebody hunting for food is less respectful than me who does it for fun even if I do it over dogs on foot.
What history are you talking about? Care to post a link or point me towards any kind of info that talks about capercaillie's in russia getting gunned down to the point that the population suffered.
wisturkeyhunter
New member
On that I do agree. Plenty of legal stuff that ain't right.
1pheas4
Moderator
Carptom--I think you and I are on two different pages here.
Anyway, I guarantee you, if I lived in a very remote part of Russia and depended on wild game to feed my family, I wouldn't think twice of doing what they are doing as long as it's legal. Even if it means to keep the boat moving to increase my chances of bring food home for the table.
Would I practice what they are doing for sport? No. It's not my thing to shoot from a moving vehicle, what ever it may be.
Either way, I say it's their business, their county, their customs, let it be. God knows we have a mountain of our own issues to worry about.
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So do I....grin quite a bit actually.
Not sure we know the video showed starving Russians needing something to mix with the boiled taters.
Respect, for me, goes first to manner of activity and a showing of respect and seldom, if at all, only because someone hunts.
The history of a decline of game thru poor decisions on everything from a manner of killing(punt guns, etc.) to a belief that the good days of never-ending game(Cheasapeake celery flats, etc.) will last forever.
Especially with migratory game...but it applies across the board.
While woodcock are one of the most difficult birds to gauge populations, the end of the migration funnel is important in setting limits as there will be less at season's end to fill the wide part of the funnel next fall.
What funnels exist in Russia?...can the levels of duck chasing or whatever withstand the strain or might some restraint be advised for the future numbers?
Whack 'em while we got 'em has been proven a bad idea here...I see no reason that whacking game from subsistence to sport is a good thing longterm...whereever.
That's all.
Don't believe I ever stated much of anything about the capercaillie past the Russians not having a lock on managing a population of them....based upon a decline in populations elsewhere.
So do I....grin quite a bit actually.
Not sure we know the video showed starving Russians needing something to mix with the boiled taters.
Respect, for me, goes first to manner of activity and a showing of respect and seldom, if at all, only because someone hunts.
The history of a decline of game thru poor decisions on everything from a manner of killing(punt guns, etc.) to a belief that the good days of never-ending game(Cheasapeake celery flats, etc.) will last forever.
Especially with migratory game...but it applies across the board.
While woodcock are one of the most difficult birds to gauge populations, the end of the migration funnel is important in setting limits as there will be less at season's end to fill the wide part of the funnel next fall.
What funnels exist in Russia?...can the levels of duck chasing or whatever withstand the strain or might some restraint be advised for the future numbers?
Whack 'em while we got 'em has been proven a bad idea here...I see no reason that whacking game from subsistence to sport is a good thing longterm...whereever.
That's all.
Don't believe I ever stated much of anything about the capercaillie past the Russians not having a lock on managing a population of them....based upon a decline in populations elsewhere.
Well I suppose western enlightened game management takes a back seat to no one. We are obviously doing a marvelous job. 10 years of such enlightened leadership among the capers and we'd be starting a capercallie forever society in a futile attempt to re-establish the rapidly diminishing population.
carptom1
Well-known member
and some disregard it seems...............
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