Recommend a good non toxic load

[Toad]

I wasn't saying that steel shot can't kill birds, just that it has limitations. I've killed plenty of ducks and geese with steel myself. A guy just has to be a little more selective on the shots he is taking. If birds are decoying well, steel will take them down with no problems. You just don't want to stretch the range too far, especially if they are going away from you.

 

[wesslpointer]

One more comment on steel shot, I have a good friend that shoots 80-100 big Canada geese a year with a 20 gauge and steel shot. If it will kill geese it sure as heck will kill pheasants, contrary to what Hevi-Shot, Bismuth and all the other "designer shot" makers want us to think. \

That's my two cents worth.

What brand and load of 20ga? Has your friend ever tried Rem hypersonic 20ga in #3. So far ive not found a steel load I care for wild late Pheasants

 

[birdshooter]

One more comment on steel shot, I have a good friend that shoots 80-100 big Canada geese a year with a 20 gauge and steel shot.

That's my two cents worth.

I agree, however with a 20 and being you will have less pellets to work with you must be a very patient hunter and get the birds well within gun range. A 12 on the contrary offers more pellets per load, which just gives you a larger margin for error both in range and pellets on the target. Heck, I suppose someone could kill them with a .410 provided they were close enough. Geese are pretty tough critters and need several well placed pellet strikes to bring them down to stay. But there's no doubt a 20 will work under the right conditions.

 

[calamari]

This is old but good info about steel shot size and pheasant mortality. It's all about increasing the odds you'll kill the bird cleanly. Roster's info is well documented.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=67889

 

[SDJIM]

I agree, however with a 20 and being you will have less pellets to work with you must be a very patient hunter and get the birds well within gun range. A 12 on the contrary offers more pellets per load, which just gives you a larger margin for error both in range and pellets on the target. Heck, I suppose someone could kill them with a .410 provided they were close enough. Geese are pretty tough critters and need several well placed pellet strikes to bring them down to stay. But there's no doubt a 20 will work under the right conditions.

How does a 12 ga give you better range? More pellets for sure but any size shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps is just that shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps

 

[Rooster Roaster]

This is old but good info about steel shot size and pheasant mortality. It's all about increasing the odds you'll kill the bird cleanly. Roster's info is well documented.

http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=67889

In my experience, a 12 gauge with 3" steel 2's @ 1500ish fps is a solid load for all reasonable ranges. It works well for me and I'm reluctant to go any lighter in terms of pellet size or gauge. Just my personal experience, and it does dovetail with the CONSEP study findings. They should have just asked me!

Problem is, those kick like a mother in my OU's and I'm without a 12 auto this year. (don't ask...)

This year I'm going to try the "Hevi-Shot Pheasant" on the non-tox lands in my 12 OU and see how it does. I bought a case on sale at MPW this spring and hopefully it does the job. The specs seem a bit light 1 1/8 oz @ 1200 fps, but it should be very comfortable in my OU guns, and if it's the "denser" Hevi-Shot it should be fine. I guess we'll see.

 

[Dakotazeb]

How does a 12 ga give you better range? More pellets for sure but any size shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps is just that shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps

Jim, I agree that a pellet leaving the barrel at 1,200 fps from any gauge gun will travel the same distance and have the same impact at any given distance. However, a 12 ga. with more shot per shell will probably put more pellets in the effective klling zone at longer distances than a 20 ga. I think that was the point birdshooter was trying to make.

 

[oldandnew]

How does a 12 ga give you better range? More pellets for sure but any size shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps is just that shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps

because steel is not ballistical equavelent to lead, ( there is a vast difference in weight ), a 6# of steel will lose velocity, compared to a lead shot of 6#, or any other size. The only ballistical source that comes close is some other compounded shot, like ITX, "nice shot", or Kent matrix shot. Gold is better than lead, but it makes the shots more costly. Steel has to be launched with speed of of 1300-1500 FPS, lead does just great at 1050-1200 ft per second. Steel shot and it's super powder required, and shot difference, ( it's lighter and more more cartridge space that lead), lead to horrendous recoil, the experiment continues with, weird shot formations, belted shot, winchester octogon of doom shot, to try to get a high count and make it fly strait, and increase contact, more importantly penetration, on contact. In small gauges in lead as well as steel shot, at least 20 gauges and less, I count ths 16 as well, do not do well with shot of over 5#, which includes a heavy belted 3" mags., any way are we always trying to make a 20, a 12, or the 12 into a 10, with 3 1/2" shells? Enjoy the twenty, use it far away from steel shot zones, or buy the fancy ITX, "nice shot", to stuff into it. The fact that most manufactures make steel , 3 " loads, is testimate that shooters buy them. The birds they put down would be struck as surely with a 2 3/4 inch high velocity load. Fuller testimony that "John shot a bird with his missle of 2#s fired out of high backbored 20 ga. at 70 yards", is expected. Usually it was a bird that got up in range, and succombed to the charge later in flight, by then nobody knows where they were, and the shot becomes heroic. Or a lucky shot which encourages " more lucky shots" henceforth. I would take estimates from someone would patterned steel, moving on a target board at 40 yards, with a chronagraph to measure speed. I have seen reports and have done enough physical investigaton to know the truth. I shoot low velocity, low pressure loads, 4800-6000 PSI, with 6# on pheasants of ITX, or "nice shot" of 1 ounce. Waterfowling I move up to 4# on ducks, and if geese are present I shoot 1 ounce of 2#'s, still at 4800-6000 psi, loads go approximately 1100-1250 FPS. I don't shoot at ranges north of 35-40 yards.

 

[calamari]

This was originally about a good non toxic load for pheasants and has morphed a little into waterfowl too. Not unreasonable since they often occur in the same place but Roster's info is specific to pheasants. Personally, I think all is revealed in the info in it. I don't know why some people in that other forum had trouble taking the time to read all of it.
One variable not discussed is if you're hunting with a dog or w/o one or with a pointer or a flusher. A good pointer that allows you to walk up on the birds like a gentleman, gives you shots that you can prepare for and be closer to the bird is one thing. Close shots=lighter loads, smaller shot. If you're running through the jungle chasing a Lab, you don't know where the bird is going to come up, you have to stop, mount the gun and shoot then that's a different situation that results in ave. longer shots=heavier loads, heavier shot. Without a dog is somewhere in between. I use 2 steel for all waterfowl hunting but never shoot more than what I can eat by myself in a year so I don't feel obliged to, in general, take long range shots.
Another thing about steel shot to remember is that it's hard on your teeth. I've got three crowns now and I'm having the fourth put on 4 Sept. all due to biting down on steel shot. I try to avoid having to shoot pheasants with steel as a result.

 

[wesslpointer]

because steel is not ballistical equavelent to lead, ( there is a vast difference in weight ), a 6# of steel will lose velocity, compared to a lead shot of 6#, or any other size. The only ballistical source that comes close is some other compounded shot, like ITX, "nice shot", or Kent matrix shot. Gold is better than lead, but it makes the shots more costly. Steel has to be launched with speed of of 1300-1500 FPS, lead does just great at 1050-1200 ft per second. Steel shot and it's super powder required, and shot difference, ( it's lighter and more more cartridge space that lead), lead to horrendous recoil, the experiment continues with, weird shot formations, belted shot, winchester octogon of doom shot, to try to get a high count and make it fly strait, and increase contact, more importantly penetration, on contact. In small gauges in lead as well as steel shot, at least 20 gauges and less, I count ths 16 as well, do not do well with shot of over 5#, which includes a heavy belted 3" mags., any way are we always trying to make a 20, a 12, or the 12 into a 10, with 3 1/2" shells? Enjoy the twenty, use it far away from steel shot zones, or buy the fancy ITX, "nice shot", to stuff into it. The fact that most manufactures make steel , 3 " loads, is testimate that shooters buy them. The birds they put down would be struck as surely with a 2 3/4 inch high velocity load. Fuller testimony that "John shot a bird with his missle of 2#s fired out of high backbored 20 ga. at 70 yards", is expected. Usually it was a bird that got up in range, and succombed to the charge later in flight, by then nobody knows where they were, and the shot becomes heroic. Or a lucky shot which encourages " more lucky shots" henceforth. I would take estimates from someone would patterned steel, moving on a target board at 40 yards, with a chronagraph to measure speed. I have seen reports and have done enough physical investigaton to know the truth. I shoot low velocity, low pressure loads, 4800-6000 PSI, with 6# on pheasants of ITX, or "nice shot" of 1 ounce. Waterfowling I move up to 4# on ducks, and if geese are present I shoot 1 ounce of 2#'s, still at 4800-6000 psi, loads go approximately 1100-1250 FPS. I don't shoot at ranges north of 35-40 yards.

Wats a "high backbore" I feel that a 20ga "backbored" would help with the larger steel in a 20ga. Does any one know If one is made or a gun smith that backbores 20ga.

 

[wesslpointer]

This was originally about a good non toxic load for pheasants and has morphed a little into waterfowl too. Not unreasonable since they often occur in the same place but Roster's info is specific to pheasants. Personally, I think all is revealed in the info in it. I don't know why some people in that other forum had trouble taking the time to read all of it.
One variable not discussed is if you're hunting with a dog or w/o one or with a pointer or a flusher. A good pointer that allows you to walk up on the birds like a gentleman, gives you shots that you can prepare for and be closer to the bird is one thing. Close shots=lighter loads, smaller shot. If you're running through the jungle chasing a Lab, you don't know where the bird is going to come up, you have to stop, mount the gun and shoot then that's a different situation that results in ave. longer shots=heavier loads, heavier shot. Without a dog is somewhere in between. I use 2 steel for all waterfowl hunting but never shoot more than what I can eat by myself in a year so I don't feel obliged to, in general, take long range shots.
Another thing about steel shot to remember is that it's hard on your teeth. I've got three crowns now and I'm having the fourth put on 4 Sept. all due to biting down on steel shot. I try to avoid having to shoot pheasants with steel as a result.

If you truly have 4 crowns do to biting steel shot I would take up a different sport

 

[oldandnew]

Wats a "high backbore" I feel that a 20ga "backbored" would help with the larger steel in a 20ga. Does any one know If one is made or a gun smith that backbores 20ga.

I reams out the barrel to allow increased diameter allowing the shot to be uncrowded in it's flight up the barrel, helping with concussion, basically saying it is overbored, but the before the choke, complete over boring would over bore your choke, you can overbore a tewnty, and take briley to makr choke tubes for it. Why over bore a 20, when you can by a light weight 12 and with the bore back bored from the factory.... no extra charge. Mossberg, Browning, and Winchester do it now!

 

[calamari]

If you truly have 4 crowns do to biting steel shot I would take up a different sport

Yes I do and it's too late to change. I like ducks too much to eat them slowly and bite down gently. Now that I've got four on one side I should be able to eat bolts. Never fear your food!

 

[wesslpointer]

I reams out the barrel to allow increased diameter allowing the shot to be uncrowded in it's flight up the barrel, helping with concussion, basically saying it is overbored, but the before the choke, complete over boring would over bore your choke, you can overbore a tewnty, and take briley to makr choke tubes for it. Why over bore a 20, when you can by a light weight 12 and with the bore back bored from the factory.... no extra charge. Mossberg, Browning, and Winchester do it now!

WHY!!!! So I could get a 20 ga to shoot a steel load I feel comfortable with hunting wild Pheasants and jump shooting ducks and be a back up gun when I travel to the Dakotas. You Probably would have to overbore the 20ga to a 16ga chokes and all to get to a effective 20ga load. I don't want a 16ga so don't ask!And have a light 12 as well as back bored browning goose gun. Just like the feel of my 20ga and trying to get better "steel" performance.

 

[wesslpointer]

Yes I do and it's too late to change. I like ducks too much to eat them slowly and bite down gently. Now that I've got four on one side I should be able to eat bolts. Never fear your food!

Ive herd of people talking out of the other side of there mouth may be you should try eating on it. Ha ha May be bigger shot may help.:cheers:

 

[PointnLab]

Calamari: Thanks for the study, very good stuff. I wish they had included some blind lead loads with the study to see how the two metals compared to one another. I wonder what the comparative success rates would have been between the two? I'm also thinking the best steel load would have been the better of the two, as the enhanced speed of steel would probably aid the average shooter from shooting behind the birds. Thoughts?

Old&New: We always go over our cleaned birds with electronic stud finders. I'm thinking that has saved me some dental bills based on your experience!

 

[birdshooter]

How does a 12 ga give you better range? More pellets for sure but any size shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps is just that shot leaving the barrel at 1200 fps

Exactly what Zeb described to a T.

Here's an example: Would it not be easier to hit a clay target at 40 yards with a 12ga vs a .410 or even a 20 if all things were equal. meaning pellet size?

My whole point was that a 20ga. is a close range waterfowl gun at best because of the relatively few pellets that are contained in steel loads which are larger pellets to begin with.

 

[calamari]

Calamari: Thanks for the study, very good stuff. I wish they had included some blind lead loads with the study to see how the two metals compared to one another. I wonder what the comparative success rates would have been between the two? I'm also thinking the best steel load would have been the better of the two, as the enhanced speed of steel would probably aid the average shooter from shooting behind the birds. Thoughts?

Old&New: We always go over our cleaned birds with electronic stud finders. I'm thinking that has saved me some dental bills based on your experience!

Lead will always be better than steel so a blind study really isn't needed. It's all a function of the periodic tables and that lead deforms when it hits releasing more energy in a shorter distance. Steel can go through a bird resulting in a slow kill while a lead pellet will deform and create more shock trauma.
I bought a Cabela's shot finder that operates the same as a stud finder and it only found about 50% of the pellets in waterfowl which are my downfall.